The Furthest Mosque

I had intended to write a most prolific rant and spew blasphemies galore.
"Losing one's religion" is an idiom meaning losing one's cool, losing all restraint, just spewing whatever comes out. For inspiration then, I chose:

Having slept upon the matter, I chose to rather keep my blasphemy to myself, and draw attention to a question instead.

What claim does Islam have to lands of Eretz Israel?
What claim to the Temple Mount?

And so I grabbed my copy of The Qur'an, Tarif Khalidi Translation.
Sura 17 is called The Journey by Night, where the Furthest Mosque is mentioned.

Of course the Sura damns me to hell for not believing in a resurrection and declares it blasphemy, and even says there is an invisible veil blocking me from understanding anything. But at least I see some small scrap about judgement

Follow not what you have no knowledge of: hearing, sight and the heart - all of these a person shall be questioned about.

Do not stride forth jauntily on earth: you will not thereby traverse the earth, nor reach up to the mountains in height.

Now as to the question about claiming land there is this:

To Moses We brought nine clear wonders - ask the Children of Israel. When he came to them, Pharoah said to him: 'O Moses, I believe you are a man bewitched."

He said : 'You know well that what brought down these wonders is none other than the Lord of the heavens and earth - thereby to open all eyes. O pharoah, I believe you are a man lost to virtue.'

So he planned to drive them out of the land, but we drowned him, he and all who were with him. Therefore, We said to the children of Israel: 'Inhabit the land, and when the promise of the hereafter is fulfilled, We shall summon you forth, all in a swarm.

As blind as I am, due to that invisible barrier against unbelievers understanding, this sure seems to mean something like "The land belongs to Israel, and in the end they will all be raise up together."

So where in the Qur'an does it say for Muslims to take the land away?

And Qur'an never says the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is the Furthest Mosque. I think somebody just made that up.

Consider this: If that is the furthest mosque, then should we get out our maps and rulers and shut down every mosque which is further away from Mecca than is the Al Aqsa? Shut down San Francisco mosques? New York City Mosques? Kuala Lumpur mosques?

To Moses We brought nine clear wonders - ask the Children of Israel. When he came to them, Pharoah said to him: 'O Moses, I believe you are a man bewitched."

He said : 'You know well that what brought down these wonders is none other than the Lord of the heavens and earth - thereby to open all eyes. O pharoah, I believe you are a man lost to virtue.'

So he planned to drive them out of the land, but we drowned him, he and all who were with him. Therefore, We said to the children of Israel: 'Inhabit the land, and when the promise of the hereafter is fulfilled, We shall summon you forth, all in a swarm.

How that translates to me is that the pharoah, am I right to assume the pharoah was of Egypt?, and all that were drowned by Moses et al, then Moses et al decided to live on the Egyptian land? So isn't the land in question historically Egyptian land?

a reply to: quintessentone

So isn't the land in question historically Egyptian land?

That is quite interesting.
What to use as a basis? Time of giving of Qur'an? Jews had already been driven out of Egypt by Christians, if I'm not mistaken.

Based on "the book given to Moses?" Surely the angel Gabriel was aware of the contents of the Torah, and what land the Torah mentions as promised.

Plus, the Land of Canaan was territory of Egypt, with Philistines as a sort of enforcer of Egyptian claim.

a reply to: pthena

the golden boob as I call it.
Bomb the thing, ugly as it is

What is the mystery of the Dome Rock? Along with the story of Muhammad's mystical ascension, there are claims it marks the spot where Adam was created, where Abraham nearly sacrificed his son Isaac, and where the dead will be judged at the end of time. Some say it is the site of the holiest part of the vanished Jewish sanctuaries.

article

I don't know, but I'm gonna guess Palestinian Jericho, for maximum irony.
Ultimately it doesn't matter though, because Islam is supposed to spread all over the world until everyone's Islamic.
Religions don't just stop.

Anyway, if we're gonna go crazy with religion, Jerusalem makes sense from a poetic perspective, as it's basically a suburb of Jericho, the first place the Jews were supposed to have taken over and settled after the exodus from Khem, and was also supposedly the birthplace of Je'shuah, and since Islam's MO is to spread Islam everwhere. If it spread all over the world it would eventually circle right back to wherever it started, near the black box.
so Jerusalem is close enough. LOL.

a reply to: pthena

a reply to: Peeple

Bomb the thing, ugly as it is

That would be illegal.
Besides Dome of the Rock is separate from Al-Aqsa mosque.

I propose, as a damned unbeliever, that everybody just walk away from it, and let it fall to ruins through nature.

a reply to: pthena

What darn idiot makes a plastered huge square in the middle of a desert city?

There's supposed to be a garden with water, trees, flowers and peacocks a colonnade walkway around it and at the centre a shadowy quiet room for each men and women to contemplate and at the heart of that the sanctuary.

...at least that is how I 'saw' it.

a reply to: Peeple

You must be a better person than I am.
All I got to see was a long pillared gold corridor leading to a throne room with an empty throne and angels looking at me as if I was supposed to tell them what was going on.

Here's a cool song that just got posted 4 days ago.

a reply to: pthena

What claim does Islam have to lands of Eretz Israel?

Iran may have claims as per DNA analysis research reveals.

"The Canaanites, albeit living in different city-states, were culturally and genetically similar," he adds. "In addition, this region has witnessed many later population movements, with people coming from the northeast, from the south, and from the northwest."

Carmel and colleagues came to these conclusions based on an analysis of 73 new ancient DNA samples representing mainly Middle-to-Late Bronze Age individuals from five archaeological sites across the Southern Levant. To these new data, the researchers added previously reported data from 20 individuals from four sites to generate a dataset of 93 individuals. The genomic analysis showed that the Canaanites do represent a clear group.

"Individuals from all sites are highly genetically similar, albeit with subtle differences, showing that the archaeologically and historically defined 'Canaanites' corresponds to a demographically coherent group," Carmel says.

The data suggest that the Canaanites descended from a mixture of earlier local Neolithic populations and populations related to Chalcolithic Iran and/or the Bronze Age Caucasus. The researchers documented a significant increase in the proportion of Iranian/Caucasus-related ancestry over time, which is supported by three individuals who are descendants of recent arrivals from the Caucasus.

"The strength of the migration from the northeast of the Ancient Near East, and the fact that this migration continued for many centuries, may help to explain why rulers of city-states in Canaan in the Late Bronze Age carry non-Semitic, Hurrian names," says Shai Carmi of The Hebrew University of Jerusalem. "There were strong and active connections between these regions through movements of people that help to understand the shared elements of culture."

www.sciencedaily.com...#:~:text=The%20people%20who%20lived%20in,biblical%20texts%20as%20the%20Canaanites.

EDIT - Nevermind this. I just misread Google maps.


a reply to: pthena

a reply to: pthena

That's the premise of 'Preacher' God is absent and the holy spirit or sthg like that 'infests' a preacher in a tiny town, so he goes with friends on a search to look for God and protect the world from a false messiah.
It is #ing brilliant.

a reply to: quintessentone

by that logic Italy belongs to the Jews.

The result was very clear-cut, the authors say: As reported online today in Nature Communications, more than 80% of Ashkenazi mtDNAs had their origins thousands of years ago in Western Europe, during or before Biblical times—and in some cases even before farming came to that part of the continent some 7500 years ago. The closest matches were with mtDNAs from people who today live in and around Italy. The results imply that the Jews can trace their heritage to women who had lived in Europe at that time. Very few Ashkenazi mtDNAs could be traced to the Middle East.

lol

And the US probably to Germany as does England

a reply to: TheValeyard

So Islam can either:

1) Claim Al-Aqsa, and abandon all mosques further than 55 miles(or whatever) from Mecca.

2) abandon Al-Aqsa and keep the far away mosques,

3) Take over the whole World. (that seems rather grim)


Oh great, I'm falling for rumors now.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: quintessentone

by that logic Italy belongs to the Jews.

The result was very clear-cut, the authors say: As reported online today in Nature Communications, more than 80% of Ashkenazi mtDNAs had their origins thousands of years ago in Western Europe, during or before Biblical times—and in some cases even before farming came to that part of the continent some 7500 years ago. The closest matches were with mtDNAs from people who today live in and around Italy. The results imply that the Jews can trace their heritage to women who had lived in Europe at that time. Very few Ashkenazi mtDNAs could be traced to the Middle East.

lol

And the US probably to Germany as does England

lol yea DNA demographic analysis for claiming lands...I wonder who has claims to Russia lol

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Peeple

Bomb the thing, ugly as it is

That would be illegal.
Besides Dome of the Rock is separate from Al-Aqsa mosque.

I propose, as a damned unbeliever, that everybody just walk away from it, and let it fall to ruins through nature.

Very little, if anything, has fallen to ruins by nature in the Middle East.

Things are burned, looted, and toppled long before ruinous decay sets in.

a reply to: pthena

In another topic, you asked: "When looked at rationally: Judaic and Islamic religions come from the same mythological framework; unbroken line from Adam, through Noah, and to Abraham. Is this mythology true or not?"

Originally, Islam was not a sect of Judaism, it was conceived against Jewish-Christian & pagan-Christian sects. Mohammed found it necessary to adopt their myths, laws and prophets in order to win over Jews and Christians.

"Now since the Galilaeans say that, though they are different from the Jews, they are still, precisely speaking, Israelites in accordance with their prophets, and that they obey Moses above all and the prophets who in Judaea succeeded him..." (Julian)

In Sahih al-Bukhari 60:121, Mohammed warns his followers about what Jews and Christians had done (building places of worship on their prophets' graves) and in Sahih al-Bukhari 77:116, he advises Muslims to do the opposite of what they do (Jews and Christians didn't dye their hair). (It's worth noting that Julian accused Jews and Christians of building places of worship, as a proof of apostasy, for even Jesus condemned this practice.)

For comparison, Tacitus suggests Judaism was conceived against Egyptian customs; Herodotus indicates that the Egyptians were averse to adopt Greek customs.

Thus, history shows us how some (not all) of the ancient religions were chiefly instinctive phenomena, characterized by underlying racial antipathies, prejudices, tribalism, along with natural sympathies.

Whereas the Greeks & Romans, despite their brutality, were the most open-minded and tolerantly disposed where religion was concerned.

originally posted by: pthena
What claim does Islam have to lands of Eretz Israel? What claim to the Temple Mount?

Admittedly, the forces of Islam don't have a legitimate claim, but neither do the Israelis.

originally posted by: pthena
Of course the Sura damns me to hell for not believing in a resurrection and declares it blasphemy, and even says there is an invisible veil blocking me from understanding anything.

"When you read the Quran, We place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier. And We drape veils over their hearts, preventing them from understanding it, and heaviness in their ears."

This passage can only be understood properly from a karmic light. The spread of superstitions cause suffering, which entails consequences; those who have caused suffering as a result of their misguided beliefs are themselves prevented from the possibility of seeing through these illusions and they're utterly incapable of being reached through reason and persuasion, until their mistakes have been balanced out by their good deeds. Of course, Muslims are not in a position to understand the significance of this verse since karma is omitted from their system.

Eccl. 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose. A time to keep, and a time to cast away.

"For things are subject to chastisement and expiation at one another’s hands, because of their injustice, according to the ordering of time." (Anaximander)

When the time is right, the superstition is spontaneously dropped without requiring any effort on the individual's part.

"I never tried to abandon creeds or code of civilization; they went away of their own accord, melting and evaporating noiselessly without any effort and without leaving any consciousness of loss." (John Muir)

originally posted by: pthena
But at least I see some small scrap about judgement

Thanks for drawing my attention to these verses, don't forget about v.35. "And give full measure when you measure, and weigh with accurate scales. That is fair, and the best determination."

originally posted by: pthena
This sure seems to mean something like "The land belongs to Israel, and in the end they will all be raise up together."

And what is meant by "promise of the Hereafter"?

It could be argued that the verse is really an allusion to an expulsion of Israelis from the land of Israel. According to Yusuf Ali's translation: "We gather you together in a mingled crowd." (Cf. Exodus 12:38 mixed multitude)

a reply to: Peeple

That's the premise of 'Preacher'

I had to look that up. I can't even remember if I ever watched or not.

a reply to: hjesterium

And what is meant by "promise of the Hereafter"?

It could be argued that the verse is really an allusion to an expulsion of Israelis from the land of Israel. According to Yusuf Ali's translation: "We gather you together in a mingled crowd." (Cf. Exodus 12:38 mixed multitude)

That's why I went to the trouble of typing in the Tarif Khalidi translation instead of copy-paste an online version, for the spin.

I looked up Julian after you referenced him on another thread. Brilliant! I'm thinking too bad he didn't live longer.

The rant that I had intended included a comparison of Transfiguration of Jesus (Matthew 17:1–8, Mark 9:2–8, Luke 9:28–36) with Mohammed's Night Journey. They strike me as very much the same sort of thing. The disciples wanted to put up monument buildings. They were prevented. Compare al-Aqsa, Muslims did that, set up a monument to a spiritual thing. Not a proper thing to do.

Thus, history shows us how some (not all) of the ancient religions were chiefly instinctive phenomena, characterized by underlying racial antipathies, prejudices, tribalism, along with natural sympathies.

I noticed that when comparing terms used in Hindu vs terms used in Zoroastrian: good is bad, bad is good, depending on which side of a stream you live on.
=======
To be perfectly honest, I am doing this for others. I care nothing at all for lands and buildings on the other side of the World. So this hit me:

Read your book. Let your own soul suffice you now as accountant.

He who is guided, is guided solely for his own well-being;
And he who strays, strays only for his own loss.
No soul burdened with sin can carry the burden of another;
17:13

But my avatar, the Eastern Gray Squirrel, is a sign of earthly reality over ideology. That is my permission to do this strange thing. I only started feeding the squirrels a couple of weeks ago, maybe three.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

But on the other hand, I can't keep up, see the verses of the R.E.M. song. Vicarious caring is heavy. So I'll probably stop fairly soon. "I've said too much"... not enough.

a reply to: NorthOfStuffx2

Things are burned, looted, and toppled long before ruinous decay sets in.

Earthquakes.
Destroyed 746 CE
Destroyed 1033 CE by Jordan Rift Valley earthquake.

I have now reached a tentative conclusion about The Furthest Mosque.

I believe that it was nowhere on Earth but rather in the heavens.

The Kaaba in Mecca is supposed to be an earthly copy of a Kaaba in the heavens, that's what The Furthest Mosque would be.

There is no local tradition connecting Abraham with Mecca; and we are forced to put this down as a pure invention on the part of the prophet, based on political as well as on theological reasons. According to Shahrastani (Arabic text, p. 430), this Kaaba was the reproduction of the one in heaven. The "Makam Ibrahim," or Station of Abraham, is still pointed out within the sacred enclosure at Mecca; and the footsteps of the patriarch are believed by the worshipers still to be there (Snouck Hurgronje, "Het Mekkaansche Feest," p. 40; Mekka, i. 11).
jewishencyclopedia abraham

So nothing to do with Jerusalem or the temple mount.