Some Thoughts on the Doctrine of Eternal Annihilation

a reply to: whereislogic

So when we all “die” we cease to exist?

Just like when you say the soul “dies” it ceases to exist?

‘Cause that’s how I read your argument.

When we die our first death we don’t cease to exist and when a soul dies the second death it doesn’t cease to exist.

Is anyone willing to explain Jesus’ parable about Lazarus and the rich man???

originally posted by: NorthOfStuffx2
a reply to: tanstaafl
What I’m saying is repentance isn’t a work.

It is a volitional act, that requires much work to actually accomplish.

It is something that is urged on by the Holy Spirit and not something man’s dark and corrupt heart can come to without that urging.

That directly contradicts the fact that God supposedly gave Man free will, doesn't it?

Our thoughts are continuously evil and we are naturally against anything holy due to our fallen state.

Well, on that we totally disagree.

originally posted by: NorthOfStuffx2
Is anyone willing to explain Jesus’ parable about Lazarus and the rich man???

Yeah ... the parable totally kills the 'soul ceases to exist' crap.
It clearly shows Lazarus awake and aware of what is going on.
It clearly shows immediate reward and punishment after death.
It clearly shows the 'bad person' suffering in Hell for eternity.
And HELL is the soul understanding it is separated from God for eternity.
(the "second death" - the death of the relationship between soul and God)

originally posted by: whereislogic
as you also said, the soul still dies, meaning it does not live eternally.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
I never said that.

When you say, "it shall die", you are agreeing with and repeating Ezekiel 18:4 that shows that the soul dies (or can die), that's the verb it uses there. I wasn't implying that you were being honest about what that means for the myth that the soul lives eternally (the last part of my sentence). Of course, that's the part you will continue to deny, that if you say "it [the soul] shall die", that that automatically also means it will not live eternally. No matter what subject or theological interpretation you attach after that to distract from the clear statement at Ezekiel 18:4 that the soul that sins shall die, meaning it will not live eternally. A direct contradiction to the teaching that the soul lives eternally/is eternal.

You are not treating the concepts of dying and living as opposites, or death and life, or destruction and continuing to exist for that matter. That's why you end up saying contradictory things like "it [the soul] shall die" followed by "the soul lives". It doesn't get more obviously contradictory than that.

“Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called ‘knowledge.’ By making a show of such knowledge, some have deviated from the faith.

May the undeserved kindness be with you.” (1Ti 6:20,21)

originally posted by: NorthOfStuffx2
a reply to: whereislogic

So when we all “die” we cease to exist?

Just like when you say the soul “dies” it ceases to exist?

Correct, only I would phrase the last part as: when a soul/person dies, he or she ceases to exist. To remind people here how the word "soul" is actually used in the Bible as explained in that article about the myth of the immortal soul (and acknowledged by many theologians that are members of a Church that still teaches that we have immaterial immortal souls, while admitting that the Bible teaches that we are material mortal souls*). And to use it in the same and consistent manner, unaffected by the doctrines of men, and in particular Pagan Greek (Platonic) philosophy.

*:

...

What is the origin of the teaching that the human soul is invisible and immortal?

The difficulty lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word “soul” stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religious thought. Greek philosopher Plato, for example, quotes Socrates as saying: “The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods.”​—Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A.

In direct contrast with the Greek teaching of the psy·kheʹ (soul) as being immaterial, intangible, invisible, and immortal, the Scriptures show that both psy·kheʹ and neʹphesh, as used with reference to earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [neʹphesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man​—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).”​—1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467.

The Roman Catholic translation, The New American Bible, in its “Glossary of Biblical Theology Terms” (pp. 27, 28), says: “In the New Testament, to ‘save one’s soul’ (Mk 8:35) does not mean to save some ‘spiritual’ part of man, as opposed to his ‘body’ (in the Platonic sense) but the whole person with emphasis on the fact that the person is living, desiring, loving and willing, etc., in addition to being concrete and physical.”​—Edition published by P. J. Kenedy & Sons, New York, 1970.

Neʹphesh evidently comes from a root meaning “breathe” and in a literal sense neʹphesh could be rendered as “a breather.” Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) defines it as: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17, 11 Dt 12, 23: (249 X) . . . soul = living being, individual, person.”

...

The ancient Greek writers applied psy·kheʹ in various ways and were not consistent, their personal and religious philosophies influencing their use of the term. ...

Source: Soul (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2)

When we die our first death we don’t cease to exist and when a soul dies the second death it doesn’t cease to exist.

I would disagree but that's sort of what my commentary has already been about. A more detailed list of the Bible texts that show that at death one really does cease to exist (as a living person possessing consciousness, or conscious awareness), can be found in my response to FlyersFan in another thread.

Is anyone willing to explain Jesus’ parable about Lazarus and the rich man???

originally posted by: whereislogic
When you say, "it shall die", you are agreeing with and repeating Ezekiel 18:4 that shows that the soul dies (or can die),

Scripture is clear, souls live forever.
When scripture says the death of the soul it means The 'second death'.
That is the soul losing it's relationship with God.
Death of the relationship with God. That's HELL.
You deny scripture that you don't like.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" Matthew 25:41

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: whereislogic
When you say, "it shall die", you are agreeing with and repeating Ezekiel 18:4 that shows that the soul dies (or can die),

Scripture is clear, souls live forever.
When scripture says the death of the soul it means The 'second death'.
That is the soul losing it's relationship with God.
Death of the relationship with God. That's HELL.
You deny scripture that you don't like.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" Matthew 25:41

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

Dear FlyersFan, with much respect for you and your beliefs, whatislogic is correct, you are contradicting yourself. And you have done it repeatedly, and in your own posts where you will say one thing and then post a scripture that says the total opposite. Whatislogic is not the one that is picking and choosing. He is actually just showing you what the scripture states, and then uses fact and logic to explain it.

For example, death is the opposite of life. If you are not awake you are asleep. These are not hard concepts, even little children can understand them.

When you say the dead are not asleep, and then quote a scripture that says they are sleeping, that is called a contradiction.

Here is something for you. Hell is thrown into the lake of fire, which represents the second death.

How is hell thrown into the lake of fire?

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."-Isaiah 20:14.

originally posted by: randomuser
you are contradicting yourself.

Nope. Not even remotely true.

When you say the dead are not asleep, and then quote a scripture that says they are sleeping, that is called a contradiction.

Nope. I posted that they are using phenomenology language. Basic theology.
You should actually read the information posted. You'll learn something.
And I posted the scripture showing people awake and active.
There is no supposed 'contradiction'.

He is actually just showing you what the scripture states, and then uses fact and logic to explain it

Nope. He's avoiding the words 'eternal'. It's there. Very clearly.

How is hell thrown into the lake of fire?
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."-Isaiah 20:14.

The lake of fire is the second death. It says so.
If you want to know how God creates the second death,
you'll never know. That's God's business and we humans
don't understand Gods ways.


ETERNAL punishment. ETERNAL fire. See that? ETERNAL. FOREVER.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" Matthew 25:41

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

There is no 'ceasing to exist'. It's ETERNAL. FOREVER.

Scripture is clear, 'death of a soul' is a SECOND DEATH, that being the death of the relationship with God which is HELL.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Thank you for responding FlyersFan. I hear what you're saying. Now I asked you what I did for a reason. And that is to do just that reason with you logically. In a spirit of mildness and deep respect. I hear what you are saying and understand where you are coming from. Studying these scriptures and praying about the matter over the years and talking with many people has given me a depth and grasp in understanding them. I say this to help try and ease your tension. Again I will say as I did before I am not your enemy, and I care about and respect, and love you.

Now notice when I asked you how hell is thrown into the lake of fire, you did not answer the question. And there is a reason I asked you that particular question. And there is a reason you didn't answer it. And that is because your doctrine cannot explain it. But the Bible does. If you don't mind I ask you to just give me a little of your time to try and help you grasp what it is saying.

Did you know hell is empty when it is thrown into the lake of fire?

That may surprise you. But before hell is thrown into the lake of fire we are told that hell gives up those that are dead in it:

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them."-Revelation 20:13.

If you see here those who are dead in the sea (people who have died at sea and thus do not have a burial in the earth, or a grave) and death and hell (hell is Hades also known as the Grave, that would be people who are lying asleep in death in the grave on earth) gave up the dead in them.

They give up the dead in them when Jesus Christ resurrects them back to life on earth. After everyone in hell and the sea are resurrected hell will be empty. And then hell is cast into the lake of fire. The very next verse says this:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."-Revelation 20:14.

So after death and hell give up those dead in them, (after all those who are dead are raised back to life) and hell is empty it is then thrown into the lake of fire.

Calmly ponder this please. Study it, pray about it, listen to what it is saying. Fire represents destruction. After hell gives up those dead in it and it is empty it is then thrown into the lake of fire, that is hell is done away with. It is destroyed forever. That means that humankind will live forever. Hell will no longer exist. While in this life everyone who has ever lived dies. After that time, no one will die ever again. There will be no more growing old, no more getting sick. No more obituaries. Just as Revelation 21:3-4 proclaims:

" With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."-Revelation 21:3-4.

Then there will be no more sorrow, no more pain, no more suffering, no more death. The former things have passed away.

This is good news! It is the Biblical hope. And although written in the Bible it may be new to you, and a foreign concept. You don't know how many people who think they know the Bible, don't really know the hope it holds out for humankind. It is a much much brighter future for the human race than many can imagine or believe.

I am not saying you have to believe this is true. But I do write this here because you do use scripture. So I know you believe it. And I know that God's word is alive and exerts power. And who knows how God's holy spirit will work and whether or not it will not drop the fetters that have been bound over your eyes.

If not today. Perhaps some day, in the near future, or a long time, if we have that time left, you will remember this. And God's spirit will recall it to your mind, and you will believe. May you have peace FlyersFan. I respect your beliefs, and I also like the fact that you have a zeal for God's word. Just please, please, let God mold that zeal into a proper use for his word and his name.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Has it ever occurred to you that what you are reading may be wrong? Do you have the original text to translate? If there is no original available then you cannot possibly know what you are reading is what was originally written. Even then, why is what is written the absolute truth anyway? It's just somebodies ideas and opinions from 2000 years ago.

a reply to: whereislogic

Hey Whereislogic,

I apologize, I am getting ready for a ten hr road trip but did start watching the first video.

One comment that I have, and will hopefully comment more later, is that Bible versions really do matter.

In the narrator’s opening statement he referred to Christians as slaves to God.

The KKV says we are servants of God.

Big diff.

Anyway, on topic, I will give them a watch and reply to your points in the post once I get to my destination if time allows.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Scripture is clear, souls live forever.
When scripture says the death of the soul it means The 'second death'.
That is the soul losing its relationship with God.

This point brought something to mind.

God told Adam that the day that he ate of the fruit he would surely die. Yet he lived to a ripe old age.

Something to ponder. What did God mean by “die”?

I believe he was explaining something there, early on, because it was an important thing to understand.

a reply to: NorthOfStuffx2

They’re talking about a,“little death,” which is a colloquialism for an orgasm.

Blessed is one who is resurrected, after which, the second death has no power.

a reply to: FlyersFan

What is a soul? And where does scripture say souls live forever?

originally posted by: NorthOfStuffx2
a reply to: FlyersFan

Scripture is clear, souls live forever.
When scripture says the death of the soul it means The 'second death'.
That is the soul losing its relationship with God.

This point brought something to mind.

God told Adam that the day that he ate of the fruit he would surely die. Yet he lived to a ripe old age.

Something to ponder. What did God mean by “die”?

I believe he was explaining something there, early on, because it was an important thing to understand.

"One day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.-2 Peter 3:8.

"So all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died."-Genesis 5:5.

originally posted by: randomuser

originally posted by: NorthOfStuffx2
a reply to: FlyersFan

Scripture is clear, souls live forever.
When scripture says the death of the soul it means The 'second death'.
That is the soul losing its relationship with God.

This point brought something to mind.

God told Adam that the day that he ate of the fruit he would surely die. Yet he lived to a ripe old age.

Something to ponder. What did God mean by “die”?

I believe he was explaining something there, early on, because it was an important thing to understand.

"One day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.-2 Peter 3:8.

"So all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died."-Genesis 5:5.

Really, this is all you can think to quote??? Sadly your interpretation of the Bible amounts to, Cuz God said so.

He did suffer a little death on the very day he ate the forbidden fruit. He had an orgasm. That is what the forbidden fruit is.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
...
Nope. He's avoiding the words 'eternal'. It's there. Very clearly.
...
ETERNAL punishment. ETERNAL fire. See that? ETERNAL. FOREVER.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" Matthew 25:41

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

The bolded argument was responded to already in the external box about hell (in my commentary), where Matthew 25:46, 2 Thess 1:9 and Jude 7 are quoted. The term "eternal" was not avoided. These 3 texts show how the term “eternal fire” (“everlasting fire”, KJ, NW) at Matthew 25:41 is to be understood.

Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, koʹla·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”)

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)

Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

"It [the soul] shall die" is still the opposite and contradictory to the statement that "souls live forever". One day, you'll have to make up your mind, either "it shall die" as stated by Ezekiel 18:4, so it will not live forever, or it will live forever. You can't have it both ways with some elaborate re-interpretation of what dying means for the notion of living forever (as if dying doesn't exclude the option of continuing to live forever, as if the soul can die, but when it dies, it still keeps on living, cause now dying just means seperation from God, it doesn't mean ceasing to live anymore).

These hoops you have to jump through to save this contradictory theosophy, seem to be tailored to only the most skilled acrobats in the field (of theosophy).

a reply to: randomuser

Ok you wanna talk about 1 day being 1,000 years, that means we’re gonna have to talk about the 4th commandment. No work on the 7th day.

We are getting very close, relatively speaking, to the 7th day, according to the Hebrew calendar.

What do you think God meant by no work?

I could bring up Genesis 1:28, but I’d rather drop this hint instead. It’s the more modern word of God.

youtu.be...

originally posted by: InachMarbank

originally posted by: randomuser

originally posted by: NorthOfStuffx2
a reply to: FlyersFan

Scripture is clear, souls live forever.
When scripture says the death of the soul it means The 'second death'.
That is the soul losing its relationship with God.

This point brought something to mind.

God told Adam that the day that he ate of the fruit he would surely die. Yet he lived to a ripe old age.

Something to ponder. What did God mean by “die”?

I believe he was explaining something there, early on, because it was an important thing to understand.

"One day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.-2 Peter 3:8.

"So all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died."-Genesis 5:5.

Really, this is all you can think to quote??? Sadly your interpretation of the Bible amounts to, Cuz God said so.

He did suffer a little death on the very day he ate the forbidden fruit. He had an orgasm. That is what the forbidden fruit is.

That makes no sense whatsoever. There is no sin in having sex inside the marriage bond. And Jehovah even gave Adam and Eve the command to become fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. So it was kind of an obligation put on them to have sexual relations. God would never tell his creation to sin. And no where in any of God's good word does he condemn sexual relations inside the marriage arrangement.

originally posted by: InachMarbank
a reply to: randomuser

Ok you wanna talk about 1 day being 1,000 years, that means we’re gonna have to talk about the 4th commandment. No work on the 7th day.

We are getting very close, relatively speaking, to the 7th day, according to the Hebrew calendar.

What do you think God meant by no work?

I could bring up Genesis 1:28, but I’d rather drop this hint instead. It’s the more modern word of God.

youtu.be...

As a matter of fact scripture says we are still in the seventh day of rest, not that it is very close:

"For we who have exercised faith do enter into the rest, just as he has said: “So I swore in my anger, ‘They will not enter into my rest,’” although his works were finished from the founding of the world.  For in one place he has said of the seventh day as follows: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,”  and here again he says: “They will not enter into my rest.” Therefore, since it remains for some to enter into it, and those to whom the good news was first declared did not enter in because of disobedience, he again marks off a certain day by saying long afterward in David’s psalm, “Today”; just as it has been said above, “Today if you listen to his voice, do not harden your hearts.”  For if Joshua had led them into a place of rest, God would not afterward have spoken of another day. So there remains a sabbath-rest for the people of God.  For the man who has entered into God’s rest has also rested from his own works, just as God did from his own."-Hebrews 4:3-10.