I think the DOJ has gone where they don't want to be.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: JIMC5499

The first thing that is going to have to be resolved is the status of the documents. Are they "classified" or not?

I don't think that's right. The indictment itself doesn't take issue with whether or not the documents were "classified". It takes issue with the fact that the documents were "national defense information".

I think the only two questions are "Did Trump have NDI documents?", and "Did he try to obstruct justice when asked for the documents back?"

You are correct that the indictment makes reference only to the Espionage Act and does not refer to whether the documents are still classified or not.

However, there is more to prosecution under the Espionage Act than simply whether he possessed NDI and whether he failed to give it back. I have extracted the relevant terminology from the Espionage Act here:

"Whoever, for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with … reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation ….. copies, takes, makes, or obtains, any…. Document … connected with the national defense …. willfully communicates, delivers, transmits …. the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it …. Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both."

What the prosecution has to prove is:

1. The information pertained to the national defense
2. He had reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of
a foreign nation
3. He copied, took, or obtained it
4. He willfully communicated it to someone not authorized to receive it and/or willfully failed to deliver it to an
officer of the US entitled to receive it

Items 1, 3, and 4 seem to me to be a slam dunk.

Item 2 is the one I haven't seen any discussion of, and it has to do with motive. It would seem to me that in order to meet all 4 criteria for guilt, the DOJ would have to have some evidence that he intended to communicate it or actually did communicate to a representative of a foreign power (phone call intercepts, emails, witness testimony, etc.). I can't believe they would bring a charge like this without some evidence of that factor because they would get thrown out of court in a New York minute, but if so, it hasn't been released yet.

a reply to: JIMC5499

I think the first thing that should happen is the DOJ should clearly and succinctly demonstrate why what Trump did was an indictable offense and what hillary did was not. The Arkansas hunchback smashed phones and tablets that were already under subpoena. She used bleach-bit on illegal servers that were also under subpoena. If the DOJ sees nothing wrong with that then I would really like to know what they feel is so deserving of indictment about Trump - apart from the fact that he is republican.

Further, what about jo jo himself? Classified documents in his garage? Hello, DOJ, anybody home?

Hitlers Nazi Germany didn’t happen overnight. It was built brick by brick. Every brick that “we the people” let the traitors to the constitution and to the oaths they took to defend the constitution is on us. If people like to be subjugated by a few in power, so be it. I will be on the side that will take a stand against those who think they will rule over a complaint populace.
Every great Empire has fallen. Maybe it’s time the USA falls too. a reply to: JIMC5499

a reply to: JIMC5499

Once both of the issues I mentioned are resolved, this can very easily blowup in the DOJ's face. Biden had "classified" documents, Obama had "classified" documents, Hilary had "classified" documents and Pence had "classified" documents. Under the current situation, they only ones that have any legal protection for this are Trump and Obama because of their status of having been POTUS.

your right .

Either they are not thinking that far ahead , which is unlikely because they cant be that stupid.

or the more likely is they simply don't care , Destroy Trump now and deal with the fallout later . What fall out will there be while they control the Media ?

So many people on ATS continue to label Trump a Criminal who should be held liable and I agree sure punish him , But only after you Punish Biden , Hilary , Hunter and Obama .

Remember they all committed this very "crime" before Trump .

a reply to: JIMC5499

I see both of these going to the USSC.

I expect it to be long after the next election before it goes this far; meanwhile it gives campaign fodder for the DNC to slander an opponent with.

Should it reach the SCOTUS before the next election and go in Trump's favor, we can expect a major crisis to prevent the next election from being ratified.

I sure hope I'm wrong, but BAMN seems to have pulled out all the stops.

originally posted by: TacoLoco75
Hitlers Nazi Germany didn’t happen overnight. It was built brick by brick. Every brick that “we the people” let the traitors to the constitution and to the oaths they took to defend the constitution is on us. If people like to be subjugated by a few in power, so be it. I will be on the side that will take a stand against those who think they will rule over a complaint populace.
Every great Empire has fallen. Maybe it’s time the USA falls too. a reply to: JIMC5499

In a sense yes, it has to be rebuilt. Plugging the holes won’t do.

originally posted by: CoyoteAngels
a reply to: Threadbare

You mention the length of the investigation as if that has some connection to the timing of the announcement.

The Biden investigation stalled, if it even had gotten started, until the GOP took back the house. Results have been produced since.

like George said

originally posted by: TacoLoco75
Hitlers Nazi Germany didn’t happen overnight. It was built brick by brick. Every brick that “we the people” let the traitors to the constitution and to the oaths they took to defend the constitution is on us. If people like to be subjugated by a few in power, so be it. I will be on the side that will take a stand against those who think they will rule over a complaint populace.
Every great Empire has fallen. Maybe it’s time the USA falls too. a reply to: JIMC5499

Respectfully no it doesn't, we need clarification on this issue, and we have the mechanization in place to address this.

The question is will they or won't they bring it to the highest court in the land ?

I suspect it won't make it that far, to bring a case before the SCOTUS isn't easy, thus whatever the lower court decides will be enough for most.

originally posted by: nugget1
a reply to: JIMC5499

I see both of these going to the USSC.

I expect it to be long after the next election before it goes this far; meanwhile it gives campaign fodder for the DNC to slander an opponent with.

Should it reach the SCOTUS before the next election and go in Trump's favor, we can expect a major crisis to prevent the next election from being ratified.

I sure hope I'm wrong, but BAMN seems to have pulled out all the stops.

No way it gets to the SCOTUS before the election, there isn't enough impetus to do so. Making that happen requires meticulous legal maneuvering along with a court willing to even hear the case. Im not sure it will ever reach that current threshold.

but it probably should

Pay backs are hell. That’s how they should be thinking about this. They should pray to God that Jan 6 was peaceful. A really pissed off portion of the American public is hard to stop….if armed…unstoppable.

originally posted by: Allaroundyou
a reply to: Zanti Misfit

Why don't we wait till he has his day in court.
To me it doesn't look good but he is a former POTUS so this whole things has some questionable elements to it.
I'm not going to say he is or is not guilty. That is for a jury of his peers to decide.

OK , that sounds Fair and Balanced to me .

originally posted by: wdkirk
Pay backs are hell. That’s how they should be thinking about this. They should pray to God that Jan 6 was peaceful. A really pissed off portion of the American public is hard to stop….if armed…unstoppable.

That wasn't the answer then and it's not the answer now. Political paybacks are why we are in this mess, to begin with.

I could almost swear Bill Clinton went to court 20+ years back over a similar situation and the judge bashed the DOJ and National archives for over stepping their boundaries.

Does anyone remember what I’m talking about?

a reply to: 1947boomer

what could be illegal from the espionage act if it isnt (or wasnt) classified?

such cowards and punks. this will backfire like all the other hoaxes

a reply to: JIMC5499

Thank-you for providing so much clarity. Americans are learning a lot (good and bad) about our Justice and our Court system, thanks to those like you who take to the forums to make us think critically and smartly.

a reply to: putnam6

Don't call it payback. Returning the US government to follow the Constitution is the goal.

originally posted by: jarsue97
a reply to: putnam6

Don't call it payback. Returning the US government to follow the Constitution is the goal.

At this point, I believe bloodshed, and a LOT of bloodshed, will be the only way for that to take place. No one holding the reins of REAL power today will give it up voluntarily. If this were still America, Land of Free, Home of the Brave, then I could think that might happen. But the reality of it is........ Well, you know. The people of today are not the same kind of people who fought, died, and won the right for America to exist. IMHO.

a reply to: JIMC5499

Are they claiming Trump shared the documents with a foreign agent?
Or that he just had the documents?

I can't really tell so I'm curious.

I've got it!

Biden wants the documents because he's the foreign agent.

originally posted by: RadioSparky
a reply to: RazorV66
Who care 6th or 8th or 10th. It happen and Trump was the instigator. No one is above the law.

yeah remember that when retribution comes around for the swamp.

lots of job openings, maybe.