Hellfire is a Lie

originally posted by: InachMarbank
a reply to: randomuser

You said, in regards to Matthew 5:29, “But in this verse Jesus was not alluding to or referring to the Grave.”

It sounds to me like Jesus is referring to literally dying, being buried in a grave, when referencing Hell or Gehenna in Matthew 5:29. Do you agree?

When Jesus said it is better to rip your right eye out and enter into the kingdom than be thrown into Gehenna whole he was referring to death. Gehenna is symbolic of the "second death" from which there is no resurrection. The majority of humankind does go to the Grave. In the Bible the Grave is where a person is lying asleep in death in God's memory awaiting a resurrection. When a person goes to Gehenna he is not considered worthy of a burial or a grave. That is because their death is final. There is no resurrection.

That is why the "lake of fire" is called the "second death" that is final destruction from which there is no resurrection:

"And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire."-Revelation 20:14.

Everyone dies. But not all people will get a resurrection. Jesus was referring to the death from which there is no resurrection when referring to Gehenna not the grave. That is the difference. Once you're dead you're dead. The only one who has the power to raise you from the dead is God. And it is up to him if he will or not. He does promise to raise most people from death back to life in the new world under Jesus' kingdom rule. But those who go to Gehenna have no hope of being brought back to life. Their death is permanent.

The Grave (sheol and hades) = you will live again = resurrection.
Gehenna = you will not live again = no resurrection.

Interesting.

As an evangelical who is fairly comfortable with his level of maturity in the faith, I actually concur with you that Hellfire is not real, that God specifically does indeed find the idea of burning people in fire repulsive (as with the inhabitants of the promised land before the Israelites took possession of it, the devotees of Moloch would burn their children alive in a sacrifice to their demonic god...) The LORD made it extremely clear when discussing the behaviour of those people that the thought of burning a child in fire was abhorrent to Him, reprehensible in every way, a thought which would never have entered into the mind of God.

With that said, the root words of Hades & Sheol mean a literal place to which the soul will descend after death, if they are not to ascend into the Heavens. I do believe that there are dimensions where the soul is separated from God, though it still can be redeemed from that place by calling on God for forgiveness - they are not places of eternal torture with no way out. But of course, the demons inhabit a real dimension, and their situation is somewhat different from ours - we have the possibility of redemption, they do not. The place known as Sheol is an arid land inhabited by demons, uncomfortably hot, with no water to cool down or be refreshed by - this is the place where the rich man of the parable found himself after death, I believe. And of course truly evil people will only feel 'content'/ at home in an evil place, even though they will of course ultimately be entirely miserable no matter what, their existence after death being devoid of anything beautiful from the storehouse of the possibilities of Heavenly life beyond the Earth.

HOWEVER. I totally disagree with you regarding the issue which you raise of JWs believing that the 'soul' is literally the flesh & blood body, and that our consciousness ceases to exist when we die, until we are literally resurrected in a JW style resurrection party some millennia later.

Without even referring to the many experiences I have had personally which confirm for me that the soul is the basic informational construct of our mind, will & emotions, our 'whole being' as the LORD references it in Deuteronomy. The basic template of our soul at birth is further informed & enriched by our experiences of life, as we spend years developing our independent, individual character, which more or less remains intact after physical death, being translated (& purified in the process) to a non-earthly dimension which we would know as one level or another of Heaven.

I will refer you to the hundreds of thousands of personal testimonies of people who have had near death experiences, who entered Heavenly dimensions of one sort or another, and then were told (or it was implied) that they had to return to the Earth (though they are often given the choice to remain in the Heavenly realms) because there was something they needed to complete, someone to look after, some sort of unfinished destiny which the LORD has planned for them. These myriad testimonies are compelling, though we must take them with a grain of salt if they are describing horrifying visions, only because I know for certain that demonic spirits, and evil, corrupted people on Earth, have deliberately manufactured false claims regarding a Hellish afterlife, to create spiritual distress & to poison the minds of unsuspecting potential believers, causing an extreme aversion to the Christian faith - they are wolves in sheep's clothing.

There was the case of a young Ecuadorian woman (her name escapes me at the moment) who described an appalling Hellscape in which Jesus persecuted children who were burning eternally in the fire, though allegedly He 'wept' for them with 'compassion'. Without doing anything to help them.. It was utterly absurd, entirely indefensible. When I watched her entire testimony my discernment immediately picked up that as she was recounting the tale she was manifesting demonically, and there was a measure of diabolical glee in her glazed-over eyes as she was describing the appalling torture which was being relayed to the viewer. It turned out her father was a controversial pastor who had gathered a cult-like following around him, and she was clearly acting under his influence in some manner, yet also with literal demonic infestation concurrently. There have been other cases - of a women's conferences in Texas, for example, which I saw on TV many years ago - in which the minister preached vehemently that the women's own children will burn in Hell forever if they don't accept Jesus as their personal Lord & Saviour. The massive crowd of women CHEERED this statement. Stuff like this is repellant, and drives a wedge between God & the people.

But we were warned that wolves would come into the sheepfold in the years after the Lord's ascension to Heaven. We must be wise, discerning, and we must trust the proper interpretation of scripture which is in line with the message & comfort of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Anything that does not promote the fruits of holiness thus described, in the context of describing a supposed afterlife in which relative innocents will suffer horrendous torture eternally for not signing on the dotted line, must be roundly condemned.

God is beautiful, He is love eternal, to be in His presence is bliss incomprehensible - He cares for us deeply, each one of us, He knows us to an infinite degree, for He is infinity itself, and therefore has time & space in His heart to pay 100% attention to loving & supporting you to reach your idealised destiny under His tutelage. He knows you aren't perfect, and as long as you try to live a good life, and depend on His grace & forgiveness for the gaps in between, then all is okay & He will hold you in the palm of His hand, protecting you as the apple of His eye, in the shadow of His wings.

The JW concept of the flesh & blood soul is not flawed, it is entirely wrong - the experiences of millions of people over the past two thousand years testify against it, proving it utterly incorrect & indefensible. The JWs get a couple of things right - but some of the most important points of 'dogma' are entirely wrong, and not only wrong, but spiritually dangerous, opening the believer to deceptions instigated by demonic forces.

a reply to: randomuser

In fact any reasoning person doesn't really believe such a fanciful idea that a loving God could ever possibly consider burning a person for an eternity in perpetual torment, for a few years of sin, willful sin or not.

To those who have been traumatized by this satanic teaching, know that God is observant of the pain you were caused and he can and will heal the wounds. And he will hold to account all of the religious leaders who knowingly misrepresent his word and his name to the people. And to the religious leaders in Christendom who continue to teach lies about God, you really do have to stop before God holds you to account for demonizing his great and Most Holy name.

I do 100% agree with you on this part, good shout.

a reply to: randomuser

What do you mean by resurrection? Are you saying a bunch of rotten corpses are going to be brought back to life? Or are you saying it is like reincarnation of a spirit into a newborn’s body?

originally posted by: InachMarbank
a reply to: randomuser

What do you mean by resurrection? Are you saying a bunch of rotten corpses are going to be brought back to life? Or are you saying it is like reincarnation of a spirit into a newborn’s body?

The resurrection is the most fundamental of all Biblical teachings. The entirety of the Christian faith rests on the fact that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. Now how was he raised back to life? He was given a spirit body that pleased God, with all of his memories that he had before he died. Most corpses don't even exist anymore of people that have died in the past. So it makes no sense that they will be reanimated. But Jehovah can reanimate a rotting corpse. In fact that is what he did in the case of Lazarus. He had been dead for four days when Jesus went to raise him back to life, to resurrect him. Even Lazarus' sister said that he must be stinking because of the amount of time he had been dead:

“Lord, by now he must smell, for it has been four days.”-John 11:39.

This is important. Because the other recorded instances of Jesus resurrecting persons were all on the same day. On this occasion he delayed arriving until after his friend had been dead and was already entombed, four days. The Jews had a superstition at that time as well that the spirit remained for 3 days on the 4th it returned to God.


Now Jesus, who has power over death itself likened death to a sleep:

"After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died."-John 11:11-14.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Bible and Jesus Christ. The Bible teaches that death is like a sleep.

In fact all of the holy ones of the first century had fallen asleep in death awaiting Jesus Christ's return to be resurrected:

"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope."- 1 Thessalonians 4:13.

The Christian scriptures clearly teach that death is like a deep sleep. In fact it tells us when The righteous holy and called and chosen are resurrected back to life in the same scripture in verse 15:

"For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death."

So the holy ones are resurrected at Jesus return. In other scriptures we are told they are called to heaven during the day of Jehovah, which is yet future.

There are many other scriptures that tell us that when a person dies they cease to live, they cease to have thought.

And yes, God can resurrect, that is bring back to life anyone who has ever died. The majority of those who are brought back to life will be given perfect human bodies with their same memories before they died. The old will be young again (not babies). Although babies will be resurrected as well. There are a few who will be resurrected to immortal heavenly spirit life. I have a thread about it here.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
Interesting.

As an evangelical who is fairly comfortable with his level of maturity in the faith, I actually concur with you that Hellfire is not real, that God specifically does indeed find the idea of burning people in fire repulsive (as with the inhabitants of the promised land before the Israelites took possession of it, the devotees of Moloch would burn their children alive in a sacrifice to their demonic god...) The LORD made it extremely clear when discussing the behaviour of those people that the thought of burning a child in fire was abhorrent to Him, reprehensible in every way, a thought which would never have entered into the mind of God.

With that said, the root words of Hades & Sheol mean a literal place to which the soul will descend after death, if they are not to ascend into the Heavens. I do believe that there are dimensions where the soul is separated from God, though it still can be redeemed from that place by calling on God for forgiveness - they are not places of eternal torture with no way out. But of course, the demons inhabit a real dimension, and their situation is somewhat different from ours - we have the possibility of redemption, they do not. The place known as Sheol is an arid land inhabited by demons, uncomfortably hot, with no water to cool down or be refreshed by - this is the place where the rich man of the parable found himself after death, I believe. And of course truly evil people will only feel 'content'/ at home in an evil place, even though they will of course ultimately be entirely miserable no matter what, their existence after death being devoid of anything beautiful from the storehouse of the possibilities of Heavenly life beyond the Earth.

HOWEVER. I totally disagree with you regarding the issue which you raise of JWs believing that the 'soul' is literally the flesh & blood body, and that our consciousness ceases to exist when we die, until we are literally resurrected in a JW style resurrection party some millennia later.

I appreciate your statements here.

As for Jehovah's Witnesses. They believe what the Bible teaches. The post of above this one goes into some of what the Bible says about death. For example Jesus likened it to sleep:

"After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died."-John 11:11-14.

Notice what Jesus and the Bible teaches about the dead man Lazarus. He was sleeping in death.

In fact all of the holy ones in the Christian congregation that died also are awaiting in the sleep of death for Jesus return:


"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope."- 1 Thessalonians 4:13.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 says:

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all."

The Bible teaches that the dead are sleeping awaiting a future resurrection. And that while they are dead they know nothing at all.

This is the real Biblical teaching about death.

The future resurrection is one of the most firm teachings in the Bible. The entire Christian faith is based on the fact that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. And he himself said:

"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."-John 5:28-29.

Lazarus' sisters knew of the future resurrection. When Jesus told them Lazarus was going to be resurrected they thought he was talking about that future resurrection"

"Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day."-John 11:23-24.

Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe what the Bible says. It is God's word, not mans and it is trustworthy. Jesus did not lie when he said that the dead are sleeping. And Paul did not lie when he said that the holy ones are sleeping in death awaiting the return of Jesus Christ to be raised to life again. And Martha was not wrong either when she professed belief in the resurrection in the future resurrection on the "last day" that is the thousand year reign of Christ over the earth.

Why even the very last verse of the book of Daniel assures that he too will be raised during the future rule of Christ over the earth:

"“But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days."-Daniel 12:13.

Notice Daniel ends his book with this assurance from the angel. He was told that he was going to the end of his life and would rest in death and at the end of the days he would stand up, literally be resurrected for his lot, that is his portion of earth in the future paradise on earth.

originally posted by: Topcraft
a reply to: randomuser

But you are not a Christian. And you limit the supreme being.

Do you even know what a Christian is?

They accept Jesus Christ as the savior of both themselves and all humanity, and pledge to follow Jesus two greatest commands to the best of their abilities and avoid the major sins described in the bible that disqualify people from everlasting life both for heaven and earth, but won't put them in "hell" either.

The perspective of Jesus being separate from his father has never been a disqualifier of a Christian, and although this isn't the topic, I have heard enough from other people this is worth posting.

However, the doctrine of the Trinity is not universally accepted among Christians. With the Reformation, Christians such as Michael Servetus and the Socinians started questioning the ancient creeds that had established Jesus' two natures. Nontrinitarian Christian groups include the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Unitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Although JW's are the best known group to go against the Trinity, they are not alone, other "Christians" have figured it out too, and kudo's to all of them from breaking free from doctrine foisted upon all Christians at the Council of Nicaea.
Disagree and die(and be dammed to hell), tends to strongly embed dogma like this, it's why it has endured and is defended to this day.

Christians Who Don't Believe In The Trinity

Finally, some people could be excommunicated/disfellowshipped/shunned from their religious organization and although not calling themselves that religious name anymore, at the core of their soul they are still a Christian because they still believe everything the bible teaches and agree with it.
But also continue to fight their sinful nature and not giving up and deluding themselves into thinking God's grace will cover everything over if they don't try to fight to do what is right.
For example what is being celebrated across North America this month?

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Believe what you wish.

Edit: Mind if I ask what Bible you use?

a reply to: randomuser

The thing that interests me about the Bible, is how so many people can believe such horrible lies.

Because the stories are so famous, it makes me believe there must be some truth veiled within. A conspiracy to conceal a confession of the world’s best kept secret.

I guess I can believe Jesus Christ was really a person. Lazarus too.

But I can’t believe either of these people literally died.

What I believe is, like everybody else, they were hooked on, “the little death.” Pardon my French.

And when they abstained from getting off on, “the little death,” for 600 days, they were resurrected. That was the first resurrection.

Body odor, cured. Stiff neck, gone. Youthfulness returned. All manner of diseases cured.

Now can you see what Jesus meant when he said pluck out your “eye” or chop off your hand to avoid becoming a rotting corpse that will turn to ashes?

a reply to: randomuser

Good job OP someone has to stop this BS! Hell is a total lie, but I believe it was introduced to soothe people who suffered and convince them there is no need to revenge. God has your back and will crush your enemies. BS. He, it, whatever, loves us all and the only hell we can experience while merging with it is the realisation how much suffering we caused to others.

a reply to: bipolarnightmare

Seems like a control construct to me and then some.

Do as i say and command in this life under penalty of an eternity burning in hellfire in the next.

Basically, follow God's rules else eternal torture and damnation await you.

But he loves you unconditionally.

a reply to: andy06shake

Exactly, this is ridiculous. Obey me or I will destroy you! Here take this free will and don't use it or I will punish you for ever! God or whatever that is isn't human. To me it is pure love.

I love reading about theology, and to my Catholic school education's credit, I learned just as much about other religions than just Catholicism. We were taught hellfire was a metaphor for the absence of god in your life, and it really isn't a biblical teaching. I suppose that makes a little sense, depending on your beliefs. I'm not aware of anyone I grew up with that believes in a literal lake of fire hell eternity. But I know many people do believe that. Then again, most people I went to school with are no longer Catholic.

Believe what you want. Live like you want. Be kind. Expect nothing.

Hi, I'm practicing a form of Kabbalah, so here is my perspective. Christianity is a form of messianic Judaism, and jews generally never believed in hell. Didn't the Messiah use the concepts of being a "son of god" and the idea of the dead being underground where it's hot to communicate with people who believed in Greek mythology and not literally? He never said that God came down and had intercourse with Mary did he? He also used the agricultural terms of crops and weeds with the weeds being tossed into a fire to be destroyed but allowed to stay a while to let the grain grow. You don't torture weeds, you dispose of them.

a reply to: AwakenWithMe

Exactly. And that replenishes new growth. Rejuvenation of the soul. Life lessons. We're all learning here. Nobody has all the facts.

ETA: Kabbalah has always been interesting to me. It goes so deep.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

I understand your meaning. I would like to point out that the Roman Empire wanted control over the people, and in the 5th Ecumenical Council, they declared Origen to be an anathema. Interestingly, Origen taught the “pre existence of the soul.” Please remember that the Emperor at the time did not wish to have to face his own stuff.

papers.ssrn.com...

According to Origen world is not evil, as for Gnostics, but only reasonable and acceptable environment, the place of habitation, created by God for people who have sinned. The doctrine of Origen about the pre-existence of souls was influenced by Platonic ideas, Neoplatonism and Indian doctrine of karma. Origen tried in this teaching to reconcile Divine justice with unequal fates. The teaching of Origen is similar to Indian or Vedic teachings on karma.

I found a very interesting article exclaiming that the bishop at the time did not wish to bring such a charge, but it was pushed by the Emperor Justinian.
www.mercyuponall.org...

If we are talking about the pre existence of the soul, it should be considered that if God did indeed create souls who later incarnated in earth, then it stands to reason that the soul can exist without the body, therefore, when the body dies, it does not mean the soul had died. The permanence of the soul can then be related to the process of the Ascension, as demonstrated for all by the great Master Jesus.

a reply to: andy06shake

Do as i say and command in this life under penalty of an eternity burning in hellfire in the next.

Yes, and please see my post about Origen.
However, I will take it further and suggest that Catholicism mostly omits teachings on karma and reincarnation, but the Hindu Vedas got it right. It is well known that Prince Siddhartha was so overcome with compassion when he saw the people outside the palace suffering, that he endeavored to find the way out of the wheel of death and rebirth.
There are a few passages on the Bible still left which leave open the idea of reincarnation.

a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

There are problems with the concept of karma and reincarnation also ThirdEyeofHorus that raise various questions and concerns.

Take for instance the lack of empirical evidence.

The concept of inequality and injustice can be morally problematic, never mind the moral accountability conundrum, which would seem to imply that all suffering or misfortune is a result of past actions or behaviors in a past life.

Does that not somewhat discount such notions as personal responsibility and/or moral accountability in this one?

Also from a certain perspective, the notion of karma and reincarnation could be viewed as an infinite cycle of suffering of sorts.

Where the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth is viewed as such.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

There are problems with the concept of karma and reincarnation also ThirdEyeofHorus that raise various questions and concerns.

Take for instance the lack of empirical evidence.

The concept of inequality and injustice can be morally problematic, never mind the moral accountability conundrum, which would seem to imply that all suffering or misfortune is a result of past actions or behaviors in a past life.

Does that not somewhat discount such notions as personal responsibility and/or moral accountability in this one?

Also from a certain perspective, the notion of karma and reincarnation could be viewed as an infinite cycle of suffering of sorts.

Where the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth is viewed as such.

The concept of inequality based on socialism as current liberals see it? That brings up an even more interest by thing, as there is a difference between equal opportunity and so-called “equitable distribution of wealth”, which is something liberal democrats and socialists use to steal the lawful monies made by working class people. Marxists clearly hate free enterprise because it requires the soul to work regardless of the circumstances into which it was born. In the socialist system, individuals can reap the benefits of those who work, regardless of their personal input. Where is the true justice in that?
Meantime, the golden rule may still apply: you reap what you sow. Only in your mind does the law of karma not visit all of us eventually.
There is also no empirical evidence that carbon dioxide and cow farts cause climate change.

Also from a certain perspective, the notion of karma and reincarnation could be viewed as an infinite cycle of suffering of sorts.

That was the point of Gautama Buddha wanting to help end the suffering of the endless cycle of death and rebirth. It was still several hundred years before the birth of Christ. Buddhism has flourished all over the earth.
Should there not be a mechanism wherein the soul learns from mistakes, and can learn to be a co-creator for greater good?

a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

I'm not quite sure how we managed to turn this in to politics buddy.

As to true justice?

In this world ThirdEyeofHorus, where justice can be purchased for a price, the only real measure of such sometimes can be taken with your own two hands.

Down that road lies retribution through which can also come with a price of a different sort.

As to whats in my mind, supposed laws of karma aside, that's my concern, hardly something you would be privy to really.

What your offering up there is mere opinion based on preconceived ideas of your own creation or on religious dogmas which is fine but hardly verbatim nor in any way reminiscent of whats in my head.

Now where the mechanism wherein the soul learns from mistakes is concerned, if it's an infinite cycle then that could indeed be interpreted to be as an infinite cycle of suffering of sorts depending on one's choices in life.

The problem i have with kama buddy is that people don't always get there just deserts in this life.

And you have no real proof that they do so in the next nether.

Then there are the issues and potential problems that arise when considering reincarnation in the context of the number of people on Earth which seems rather insurmountable at best.

Which begs the question, is kama nothing more than another control construct designed to reatard free thought and expression under punishment of what might happen in the next verse.