Jesus in the eyes of Conservatives

originally posted by: visitedbythem
I think he was speaking clearly. What is it you don't understand about loving others? I know also that His statements do not contradict scripture that explicitly command that a man does not lay with another man, as he would with his wife.

There is no contradiction there.

This is 100% true. God can make all the rules He wants. He made a rule forbidding homosexuality & the Golden Rule. The apparent contradiction is in those certain Christians who break the Golden Rule in service of enforcing the other rule.

UNLESS! the argument is (which to be clear, no one in this thread has actually made) is that you would want other people to punish you for the rules you break. In that case I see how MATTHEW 7:12 can justify aggression towards others.

a reply to: ERISunveiled

alright. mission accomplished. I'm logging off now. prolly wont be back for another 6,7 months. ttfn

a reply to: ERISunveiled

He also made a law against murder. Is it wrong to enforce that in the face of the Golden Rule?

Same logic as you are using.

originally posted by: ERISunveiled
a reply to: CoyoteAngels

i mean, yeah.

So you see the futility in creating this thread?

originally posted by: ERISunveiled
a reply to: CoyoteAngels

in one of my posts that got nuked, i made the point that if the question doesn't apply to you then this thread isn't for you.

But there ARE people in reality who exist who ARE: Conservative, Christian, and homophobes / xenophobes

That was always explicitly who this thread was for.

Don't know why so many people got defensive about a question that didn't apply to them. Maybe I'll make that the topic of another thread?

Tsk Tsk Tsk.

Not fair.
Your title, nor your OP say your asking Christians, homophobes /xenophobes to only answer.
Maybe you should be more specific?

And "fair enough", to your last reply to me.

Sigh..! You see, ATS fam? Same as it ever was.

Every.

Single.

Time.

Since the dawn of time. Also, ATS Moderators and above... I'm afraid the troll just furthered the cause of their daddy the Devil with this thread. They hate conserving as much as conversing, so they'll try to take down ATS over internet "wrong-think". Many of us warned many about it. Do not relent!

Pfft. They even dissed Eris.

originally posted by: ERISunveiled
Just a quick note. I'm not here to debate anyone or try to change their mind or perception or anything like that. I am only here to learn what the conservative perspective is on something specific Jesus said.


So when Jesus said 'treat others as you would have them treat you' (Matthew 7:12) Why does this NOT mean treat everyone with kindness & empathy, but instead it means harass LGBTQ, immigrants, non-Christians, etc., etc..

You already know your answer. The bible does not allow such behavior, and religion is only being used to prop up power and greed. It's as simple as that. People that vote are religious, people in power are religious when it suits them.

Here's a good meme from today that is relevant to your question; pertains to the hostage situation America is currently in over aid and assistance for mainly poor people.

What would Jesus do?

a reply to: ERISunveiled

I was walking down the sidewalk in an urban area once and I saw a kid - about 4 years old - about to stick a screwdriver into an outlet in a garage. The garage was locked by a grated gate so I couldn't get to the kid. I spoke to him kindly, telling him not to do that, but he just looked at me then turned around and resumed his experiment.

My only alternative was to speak strongly, effectively scaring him but potentially saving his life. I screamed at him and he droopped the screwdriver and began to cry. His mother heard the commotion and immediately came running out. She say me, understood that it was me who hollered at him and looked at me with murder in her eyes. Before she had a chance to eviscerate me for bothering her dear prodigy, I explained to her what he was about to do and that I hollered at him to save his life.

She melted. She thanked me profusely. She understood that I even though she thought I'd done something unkind, I had actually be acting with utmost concern and compassion.

When a Christian speaks eternal, biblical truth about sin, he should do so in love. Yes, there are people who are idiots, but that is not Christian character.

You accuse Christians of "harrass[ing] LGBTQ, immigrants, non-Christians, etc., etc.." If you consider what I did to that little boy in his garage about to stick a screwdriver into the electrical socket to be harrassment, then I guess Christians do "harrass" people who are living in a way that puts their eternal existance in jepordy.

I don't harrass people. Maybe, as M5xax said, you are projecting.

There are not laws in place in any state that say that if a teacher forces Christianity on a student and the student converts to the Christian faith, the student's parents have no right to know about it or intervene.

Try going to a library where they are hosting "Drag Queen Story Hours" and ask permission to do a Bible story hour.

Yeah, projection central is right!

a reply to: M5xaz

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"

The OP has a point.

a reply to: gortex

Does he/she? Or did the OP open with rocks?

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: M5xaz

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"

The OP has a point.

I am absolutely a sinner, but neither you nor the OP has a point:

harass
verb (used with object)
to disturb or bother persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; pester:

I do not disturb or bother or torment the LGBTP community of anyone, and never have.
I choose not to participate in their delusions


If anything, it's the LGBTPs that are harassing children in schools with graphic gay porn books.They are projecting
Leave me alone
Leave my kids alone


Rejecting their indoctrination is not harassement

originally posted by: ERISunveiled
a reply to: chiefsmom

'picking a fight' would imply I'm interested in a debate. I'm not. And I worded my post just fine. I was / am interested in the conservative interpretation of MATTHEW 7:12.

specifically how a scripture that says "Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you
shall also do to them," is understood through the lens of homophobia and xenophobia

A. some homophobes and xenophobes are Christians

B. The foundation of Christian thought is the Bible

C. The Bible contains a verse that says: "Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you
shall also do to them," (MATTHEW 7:12. )


Therefore--the interpretation that MATTHEW 7:12 prohibits homophobia and xenophobia is wrong. The purpose of this post is to learn the CORRECT interpretation directly from Christian homophobes and xenophobes. Which is why I came to ATS.

so there. Is that a nicer way of asking my question?

What part of "protect our children from sexually explicit materials" is so difficult to grasp? Nobody is talking about eradication of a community, but keep that community in age appropriate arenas where by law kids are prohibited because common sense reasons. Think of it like PG 13 cinema.

I'm not a Christian and I endorse the parameters described above.

So when Jesus said 'treat others as you would have them treat you' (Matthew 7:12) Why does this NOT mean treat everyone with kindness & empathy, but instead it means harass LGBTQ, immigrants, non-Christians, etc., etc..


That is the essence, and beauty of Christianity. Christ came to pay the price for our sins. Jesus, as God and Man led a sinless life and took on the sins of all mankind because our original sin keeps us from living a truly holy existence. In other words, no Christian can live up to Christ's example. It is important to try and live by the word, but as men we are apt to fall short of the mark.

originally posted by: CoyoteAngels

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: ERISunveiled

.....
Love God
Love others
Bit confused why christians don’t follow those rules myself

Then you say you are allowed to judge other Christians.... but you were not clear about who you are allowed to condemn.

What Christians dont follow those rules? You seem oddly condemning of your peers as a whole.

I don't feel entitled to judge others of any stripe. I can only set boundaries for behavior that I will or will not tolerate near me or minors in my family. And stay away from those that don't respect me and mine.

I don’t see this as a discussion
You need to study the bible, the words in it, I don’t condemn, i discern.
The word judge, its very lazy to use such an encompassing word

Setting boundaries, not tolerating is judging, obviously
You have a brain, it is a gift, God clearly expects us to use it
Pretty wise to stay away from certain people
“I have friends who drink heavy, I like a drink, I stay away from those friends, I judge them, the situations and make careful decisions”


Doesn’t change what I said

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: ERISunveiled

I don’t see anything wrong or unfair re your question
Jesus taught those who would follow Him two commandments
Love God
Love others
Bit confused why christians don’t follow those rules myself
I try

Christians do follow those rules.

But like Christ, Christians do not endorse sin

Mate, I go to church, seen some speak unkind about others, exactly as the op is questioning
I think the question is a fair question
You sound as if you think christians are perfect, I know otherwise
I didn’t say christians endorse sin but they still sin, some by not showing Christ’s love to some communities
Are you denying there is no issue?

Having said that, trans people should not be allowed into the opposing sex bathroom, that’s not love but pandering to a mental disorder

a reply to: incoserv

You are comparing adults with freewill and a capacity to make a mature choice with a 4 year old with no concept of the ramifications, silly analogy
It’s not relevant

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: incoserv

You are comparing adults with freewill and a capacity to make a mature choice with a 4 year old with no concept of the ramifications, silly analogy
It’s not relevant

Absolutely relevant. A person who is putting him or herself in mortal danger and does not know it needs to be warned. Just like the ignorant child sticking the screwdriver in an outlet, the person who is placing their own soul in eternal danger is just as ignorant.

Let's try another analogy. (Not a real experieince like the one I first related, but the same point.) Say I'm driving home from work late one night and see a fire flickering in the kitchen window of a two story house. Perhaps I know for some reason that all the bedrooms are upstairs and, save the fire I see burning in the kitchen, the rest of the hosue is dark. Everyone is peacefully asleep. I know that the house is about to go up in flames.

Now, I can reason that if those people had functioning smoke alarms, they's be awakened, so it'd be their fault if they all die.

Or I could reason that since they are all resting peacfully in their beds, I don't want to disturb their restful slumber.

Is either of these lines of reasoning correct?

NO!

The proper thing to do - as an adult with the fate of an entire family in my hands - is to sound the alarm, wake them up, disturb their slumber and shout them to safety.

Same principle.

People who are putting their eternal soul in jepordy need to be warned. If they choose to not heed the warning, then that is their problem, but compassion demands that I warn them.

Ezekiel 33:1-6 (even though you may not like the Bible)

1The word of the LORD came to me: 2“Son of man, speak to your people and say to them, If I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from among them, and make him their watchman, 3and if he sees the sword coming upon the land and blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4then if anyone who hears the sound of the trumpet does not take warning, and the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. 5He heard the sound of the trumpet and did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But if he had taken warning, he would have saved his life. 6But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, so that the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any one of them, that person is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.

:

originally posted by: incoserv

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: incoserv

You are comparing adults with freewill and a capacity to make a mature choice with a 4 year old with no concept of the ramifications, silly analogy
It’s not relevant

Absolutely relevant. A person who is putting him or herself in mortal danger and does not know it needs to be warned. Just like the ignorant child sticking the screwdriver in an outlet, the person who is placing their own soul in eternal danger is just as ignorant.

Let's try another analogy.
:

Better analogy this time but
If they are not interested, wipe your feet and walk away, read that somewhere I did
Catch more flies with sugar

Quoting Judaic law at a Christian? Ezekiel, really, you want me to go stone homosexuals, adulterers as well.
I am not a Jew so I don’t follow your reasoning, stick with what Jesus and His disciples taught

14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Love others as we love ourselves.

Well, I am not all permissive to myself. I would love to be a hedonistic, gluttonous slug, but I frequently deny myself those impulses because I understand the harms they cause to both myself and others.

Too often, I hear this cry of "Love others as ourselves!" as a demand for us to be permissive and allow the very same destructive behaviors in others that we deny ourselves because we know they are harmful in various ways which is why they are sinful behaviors.

a reply to: ERISunveiled

Let's explore an important lesson that Jesus taught the Pharisees in John 8.

John 8:1-11

Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

The Pharisees wanted to stone the adulterer straight-away, pointing at her with indignant fingers. Jesus laid bare their hypocrisy, in accusing someone of a sin while they themselves were guilty of all manner of sin. Each one of them were convicted of their own conscience and departed, leaving Jesus alone with the woman.

Jesus lifted Himself up and looked around for the accusers, but they were gone. Jesus, who was without sin, did not condemn the woman, but told her to go and sin no more.

In Matthew 7, Jesus points out the hypocrisy of judging others when you have yet to look at your sinful self and dealt with your own sin first (not living righteously). This is the context of Matthew 7:12, which the OP quoted.

Matthew 7:1-5

Judge not, that you be not judged.

For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

...

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

The law and the prophets is summarized in two commandments: Love God and love your neighbor.

Matthew 22:36-40

Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ [quoting Deuteronomy 6:5] This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ [quoting Leviticus 19:18] On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

These two commandments were given to Moses (as per above; see Deuteronomy 6:5, Leviticus 19:18). Jesus was quoting OT scripture. The Ten Commandments show us how to love God and love our neighbor. Jesus hung the law and the prophets on love.

Jesus said to judge righteously.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

What does it mean to judge righteously?

Proverbs 24:21-29

My son, fear the Lord and the king; Do not associate with those given to change;
For their calamity will rise suddenly, And who knows the ruin those two can bring?

These things also belong to the wise:

It is not good to show partiality in judgment. He who says to the wicked, “You are righteous,”

Him the people will curse; Nations will abhor him. But those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, And a good blessing will come upon them.

He who gives a right answer kisses the lips. [A straightforward answer is as good as a kiss of friendship.]

Prepare your outside work, Make it fit for yourself in the field; And afterward build your house.

Do not be a witness against your neighbor without cause, For would you deceive with your lips?

Do not say, “I will do to him just as he has done to me; I will render to the man according to his work.” [Jesus will give every man according to his work; see Revelation 22:12]

In the next chapter of Proverbs is a scathing rebuke concerning judging others while in a sinful state yourself.

Proverbs 26:23-27

Fervent lips with a wicked heart are like earthenware covered with silver dross.

He who hates, disguises it with his lips, and lays up deceit within himself; when he speaks kindly, do not believe him, for there are seven abominations in his heart; though his hatred is covered by deceit, his wickedness will be revealed before the assembly.

Whoever digs a pit will fall into it, and he who rolls a stone will have it roll back on him.

Grudging against others leads to condemnation.

James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Who is the ultimate judge? Jesus.

Psalms 96:10 Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

Conclusion:

• Christians do not harass people.
  
• Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.