Tu-160: B-1 Rip Off

Originally posted by jetsetter
A "normal combat load" for a B-1B is alot more than an Tu-160. Also the B-1B can carry weapons outside its bomb bay which may shorten its range, but with no weapons outside its range increases.

But I compared "normal combat load" for a B-1B with "*maximum* combat load" for Tu-160

[Edited on 2003-7-23 by MakodFilu]

Tup 144 (russian concorde) and Buran (russian spaceshuttle)
Sound familiar?
Both are clearly copied designs from their western counterparts.
But something that can not be denied is the fact that the russians (soviets) improved the designs.
Well i dont really know about the tup 144 but the Buran is better then the american space shuttles.
Does it matter? No, both are grounded due to lack of funding. Except maybe 1 tup144 that is maybe still used by nasa as a testbed.

Originally posted by shadow1
Tup 144 (russian concorde) and Buran (russian spaceshuttle)
Sound familiar?
Both are clearly copied designs from their western counterparts.
But something that can not be denied is the fact that the russians (soviets) improved the designs.
Well i dont really know about the tup 144 but the Buran is better then the american space shuttles.
Does it matter? No, both are grounded due to lack of funding. Except maybe 1 tup144 that is maybe still used by nasa as a testbed.

do you even know where usa got the shuttle?

Duh, everybody knows they got it from the Greys.
Whats your point $tranger?

Originally posted by shadow1
Duh, everybody knows they got it from the Greys.
Whats your point $tranger?

ooooo.k...

Damn it $tranger!
What do you mean with:
do you even know where usa got the shuttle?

shadow1,
$tranger is trying to imply that anything and everything the US has is from the technological superior Russian.......

$tranger is a Russian arms dealer so that should tell ya something....

regards
seekerof

I see.
Well anyhow, the russians copied from the americans as far as their space shuttle is concerned.
That is a known fact!

a spy gave usa the blueprints for a shuttle,
and rcs calculation= pyotr ufimtsov, prove me wrong

who developed the first satellite?... who put the first man in space? And if you look at a history book you'll find that the soviets did come out with a lot of new technology/designs.


[Edited on 27-7-2003 by $tranger]

[Edited on 27-7-2003 by $tranger]

So you are saying that it was all the fault of a spy that the Soviet Union had second place with the building of a Space Shuttle that looks almost as a US space shuttle?
Maybe spies are also to blame that the US won the moonrace??
The soviet politicians wanted something with te same possibilities (or slightly better) as the US space shuttle and the engenieers building it decided that it was only logical that they constructed something similar as the americans. (yes the laws of aerodynamics are the same for everyone)
I am nog denying that the soviets build some excellent things and i allready said before that the Buran is better then the US space shuttle.
Its autopilot was very good for its time and the Buran also has better tile's.
And the fact that the Energia rocket and its boosters all use liquid fuel makes it al more controlable and more safe.
The politicians wanted a copy and they got one! (a superior one)

Originally posted by shadow1
So you are saying that it was all the fault of a spy that the Soviet Union had second place with the building of a Space Shuttle that looks almost as a US space shuttle?
Maybe spies are also to blame that the US won the moonrace??
The soviet politicians wanted something with te same possibilities (or slightly better) as the US space shuttle and the engenieers building it decided that it was only logical that they constructed something similar as the americans. (yes the laws of aerodynamics are the same for everyone)
I am nog denying that the soviets build some excellent things and i allready said before that the Buran is better then the US space shuttle.
Its autopilot was very good for its time and the Buran also has better tile's.
And the fact that the Energia rocket and its boosters all use liquid fuel makes it al more controlable and more safe.
The politicians wanted a copy and they got one! (a superior one)

i mean a spy stole the shuttle blueprints from the ussr for the us

Well, all your history books say it my way and dont mention anything about a spy!
Damn it, the soviets said it themselves that they copied the design!
Yes after the moonrace their were some early prototype designs for a soviet space shuttle but they decided to concentrate themselves on their space stations.
The US was first and all the research was done by themselves.

You know $tranger.............you really, really need to start providing some factual evidence to back up the comments and assertions you have been making of late.
You post numbers and they get proven wrong......
You post other comments and assertions that have yet to backed by anything but you saying it........
"spy got this....spy took that....." I mean WTF....
What in the hell was the main tool of the Cold War.....are you saying that the Russians, God forbid, never stole anything?!?!?!
I still find it amazing that the much vaunted Soviet aircraft and tanks and vessels are all parked...lacking fuel, parts, paid manpower, very high suicide rate, lack of food, collecting rust and dust, etc., etc......but yet still working on R&D and "Black Projects" and claiming lack of funds.......

Care to explain away those things?!

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
You know $tranger.............you really, really need to start providing some factual evidence to back up the comments and assertions you have been making of late.
You post numbers and they get proven wrong......
You post other comments and assertions that have yet to backed by anything but you saying it........
"spy got this....spy took that....." I mean WTF....
What in the hell was the main tool of the Cold War.....are you saying that the Russians, God forbid, never stole anything?!?!?!
I still find it amazing that the much vaunted Soviet aircraft and tanks and vessels are all parked...lacking fuel, parts, paid manpower, very high suicide rate, lack of food, collecting rust and dust, etc., etc......but yet still working on R&D and "Black Projects" and claiming lack of funds.......

Care to explain away those things?!

regards
seekerof

china/india give the most funds for the projects along with other nations, i never said that the russians never stole anythin.

just type pyotr ufimtsev in google

Originally posted by $tranger
just type pyotr ufimtsev in google

Yep $tranger.....I did just that.......I guess you missed some information also, being you were only looking for what you wanted "something" to say?

Ufimtsev's work allowed computer models to estimate RCS starting in the mid-1970's, but this was not the beginning of stealth! Stealth technology existed in the US long, long before Pyotr Ufimtsev's equations were made public. The US's RB-57 and U-2 unsuccessfully tried active cancellation in the 1950's. The CIA's A-11 and the USAF SR-71 incorporated RAM and RAS in the 1960's. RCS was determined through field tests and applications rather than analysis.

The point I am making is that the US had a limited understanding and concepts of "stealth" before Ufimtsev formulated his equation(s). What Ufimtsev did was formulate a RCS model. Of coarse this was important to and for "stealth" development, but the concept and the technology was there to a limited extent before the equations were made public.

Here's my take on it.......
The Russians could build "stealth" today.....
If they had taken Ufimtsev's work seriously, which they did not, they would not be about 30 years + behind. It requires ungodly amounts of money to research and develop and unless the Russians somehow get hold of the US's most recent "stealth," they will continue to remain behind, very behind.......
So, to play catch up, the Russians are dumping major funds into "stealth" detection technologies......

The simple fact is, Ufimtsev's work was a major plus for "stealth" technology but "stealth" technology was already in existence before his work came to light or to the awareness of the public. Btw........you have any idea where Ufimtsev is today? Do you know who he is working for? Try to find that and you might be very surprised when you do......
I would call that an "idea" that slipped right through the Russians hands and landed in the hands of those who better respected and appreciated his works and ideas.

regards
seekerof

im not talking about ram and such im talking about RCS!

$tranger............
You might decide to dig deeper than you are obviously avoiding to do.
RAM and RAS are apart of the concepts of "stealth," just as RCS is.
You make a valid point. RCS deals with geometrical and angled shapes. But it is all apart of the equation that incorporates the concpts of "stealth." Ufimtsev's work provided the model for current shape and form methodology inherent in "stealth" today. The point I am making is that the US was also working on a few concepts of "stealth" prior to RCS. You have to understand that though RCS makes up alot of the "stealth" technology, RAM and RAS added to RCS make up the whole picture of what "stealth" really is. RCS alone does not constitute a complete "stealth" technology.
I will conceed, vaguely, to your position of RCS, from Ufimtsev's equation, being Ufimtsev was a Russian, was apart of the "stealth" technology breakthrough. But I also maintain that RCS was only part of the "big picture" of what "stealth" is today. There are 2-3 other facets/components of "stealth;" RCS is just part of it.

If you want to say that Ufimtsev/Russia created "stealth", I think you are wrong. The ideas and concepts and obvious testing of the "other" components that make up "stealth" where being in play prior to RCS being made public through Ufimtsev's work.
BTW.....he is in the US, at the University of California and currently working for Northrop Grumman Corporation. I'm sure the Russians today are kicking themselves in the ass for neglecting his work and thus falling behind in "stealth" technology by about 30 years or so.......
You may get the first laugh $tranger but I'll duely take the last laugh.......playing catch-up, with the current Russian situations is feable at best.....hence their version of playing catch-up is spending close to what the US is spending in "stealth" technology, and using said funds to do "anti-stealth radar/detection" technologies.

BTW....hows that Mig-1.42 program coming along? Or maybe the "Black Eagle" MBT program? And beside India and others "helping" your funding needs.......just how much of the US Foreign Aid, in the amounts of billions, is heading towards many of those military projects........?

Russia....got to love the place. Whats that old saying again...."keep your enemy closest......"

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 28-7-2003 by Seekerof]

You got soem pretty good points their Seekerof.