He Has the Whole World In His Hand

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: Raggedyman

The OP complained ...

Completely off topic to the OP. As per usual. You and Raggedyman, along with several others continue to harass me in every one of my threads with off topic subjects and lies. And nothing is done about it.

Like magic ... here you are!

Lies? What Lies!

I am here to warn others not to fall into Satan's trap that pits all religions against each other.

P

Isn’t Harry Potter on for you to watch or something

I would speak my mind about Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, Muslims or Hindus if they harboured pedophiles in their organisations like Jw.org do

They can teach, preach whatever they want but, I will tell the story about them harbouring pedophiles from justice, hiding and protecting criminals and hold them accountable
Find a Protestant church doing the same, please let me know

Satan’s trap is to have faiths protect criminals so they look squeaky clean when we all know all humanity is corrupted to the core

a reply to: EdgeofParadise

30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”-Matthew 13:24-30.

That is rather stupid advice!

By harvest time, the weeds would have gone to seed and those seeds now infest the land. Next year will be very hard!

That is what you get when you take farming advice from a fisherman.

You quote the words but you never seem to question them.

P

originally posted by: Cancerwarrior
a reply to: EdgeofParadise

Star and flag for a good thread.

However ATS doesn’t like the Bible, or Christianity. Not even a little bit. So prepare to get flamed for expressing your faith and quoting a “fairy tale book”.

It’s by design I believe. I never thought I would see the day where Christians are back to being persecuted.

.. ridiculed, not persecuted

You raise a good point though. I have a family member who is a self proclaimed atheist. I asked her one day how she could believe in nothing. She told me she just can’t get behind a god who would allow the suffering, hate, jealousy, etc. that you see in the world today. She said that if she dies and meets god the first thing she’s going to ask him is how he can allow the world to be the way it is.

I told her,”well, if god was here in the flesh with us right now, he would probably ask you the same thing.”

Sure, lets ignore the all-powerful being a god and stopping everything with a snap of their finger, or the church's idea of weaseling out of the way by "free will, god cannot do anything against it" - if there is a god and they are willingly not doing anything against the evil in the world, that is foul play.

originally posted by: EdgeofParadise

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: EdgeofParadise

I know you are using all the right words and stuff but why don't JW's acknowledge Jesus as God?

I mean, the gospels are all fairly clear on the matter and then there's the thousands of years of the Church, and before that the thousand more years of Judaism, before the cult even came along.

Look at the shoulders upon which JW's and Mormons stand.

Perhaps there is something in all that old stuff?

Jesus himself said that there would be an apostasy from truth after he went to heaven in an illustration about a field. Do you remember it?

"He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”-Matthew 13:24-30.

Do you know what this illustration means? If you do then it would answer your own question.

I'm fairly sure that it means there was an original crop planted by the farmer and that an enemy of the farmer planted seeds of a poisonous weed to try and destroy the whole crop. The farmer in his wisdom decided that the best option was to wait until harvest and then separate the bad from the good, the bad being thrown into the fire so their seed is totally destroyed.

It's analogous to God having established his church for some time, and then along came the JW's...

Jesus said (Matthew 5:44-45:

44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Jesus makes it clear here that natural forces like gravity and other processes operate by the Will of GOD and are a reflection of GOD's love. Sometimes those natural forces cause tragedy for human beings. GOD is said to be all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good, and if so, then everything that happens in the course of the natural world is a direct result of GOD's intention.

... like, say for instance the development of bone cancer in children is GOD's loving will.

SMDH

a reply to: EdgeofParadise

I'm curious OP, what is the source of the images used in your post?

Addressing the claim that Satan is in control of the world (Matthew 28:18-20) ... Jesus, after His resurrection stated:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Satan, according to Jesus Christ, is no longer in control of the world, rather, He, the Father and the Holy Spirit are ...

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Jesus said (Matthew 5:44-45:

44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Jesus makes it clear here that natural forces like gravity and other processes operate by the Will of GOD and are a reflection of GOD's love. Sometimes those natural forces cause tragedy for human beings. GOD is said to be all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good, and if so, then everything that happens in the course of the natural world is a direct result of GOD's intention.

... like, say for instance the development of bone cancer in children is GOD's loving will.

SMDH

As we see God is not behind mankind's suffering. Rather it was Satan, and Adam and Eve who rebelled against God.

Jehovah has allowed the rebellion to continue for a small amount of time to prove the point that his soverity is best, and that man cannot rule himself.

Cancer was never the will of God! And he has already shown us that he will get rid of it, along with all other suffering in the near future under Jesus Kingdom government:

"With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”-Revelation 21:3, 4.

I wrote the OP with people like you in mind who have the understanding you do. When you see the truth it really does help you understand things better. Here is something that explains it quite succinctly:

Why Does God Allow Suffering

All of the images I used I got on the JW.ORG website. I will probably delete them in a couple days. I just added them to aid in making the OP come to life. A picture is worth a thousand words.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Addressing the claim that Satan is in control of the world (Matthew 28:18-20) ... Jesus, after His resurrection stated:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Satan, according to Jesus Christ, is no longer in control of the world, rather, He, the Father and the Holy Spirit are ...

He has been given all authority but even he was told he would have to sit at God's right hand until it came time to exercise that authority over the earth:

"Jehovah declared to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
 Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying:
“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”-Psalm 110:1, 2.

And even after Jesus went to heaven the Bible clearly shows that Satan was still ruling over earth:

"Among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."-2 Corinthians 4:4.

The book of Revelation reveals that the world's political governments really get their authority from Satan the Devil:

"And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems, but on its heads blasphemous names. 2 Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like those of a bear, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And the dragon gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority."-Revelation 13:1, 2.

This vision given to John by Jesus was also after Jesus returned to heaven and actually refers to events in our days.

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: EdgeofParadise

30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”-Matthew 13:24-30.

That is rather stupid advice!

By harvest time, the weeds would have gone to seed and those seeds now infest the land. Next year will be very hard!

That is what you get when you take farming advice from a fisherman.

You quote the words but you never seem to question them.

P

Immature tares (darnel) and wheat plants look identical. It is only when the plants begin to show seed heads that the differences become apparent.

Image of tares.

Image of wheat.

The maturation cycles of both plants are also very similar (they are seasonal).

The farmer got his workers to harvest the tares out of the field before harvesting the wheat. So obviously, for one so well versed in plant morphology as you must be, you would realize that the weeds were harvested and burnt before their seeds matured and after the shape of the seed heads was apparent.

Also, if an enemy had come and over planted the existing fields "in the night", the tares would have been planted later and therefore would mature later. There's nothing in the parable nonsensical that a subsistence farmer would not have been willing to do to ensure his livelihood.

There would have been few mature seeds left in the fields to cause problems the next year and the clean up would be easier with each harvest.

a reply to: EdgeofParadise

"As we see..." are you looking at the same Bible I am???

Jesus said in the verses provided by me here that God (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) is in direct control of all natural forces.

Cancer is a natural force, therefore, according to Jesus, cancer is God's will.

Thanks for the notation regarding the source of your images. jw.org is the website of the Jehovah's Witnesses?

All due respect, you have no idea of who I am or what I believe. However, you are claiming the BIble as your source throughout your claim, so whatever your interpretation is, it is not backed up by the Bible.

You quoted the book of James as an authority. James was a founding member of the Christian Church which states that GOD is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So, either James is an authority or your claims make no sense.

its 2019 and peoples still believes that Satan is bad guy and peoples still believe that Jesus existed.

originally posted by: EdgeofParadise

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Jesus said (Matthew 5:44-45:

44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Jesus makes it clear here that natural forces like gravity and other processes operate by the Will of GOD and are a reflection of GOD's love. Sometimes those natural forces cause tragedy for human beings. GOD is said to be all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good, and if so, then everything that happens in the course of the natural world is a direct result of GOD's intention.

... like, say for instance the development of bone cancer in children is GOD's loving will.

SMDH

As we see God is not behind mankind's suffering. Rather it was Satan, and Adam and Eve who rebelled against God.

Jehovah has allowed the rebellion to continue for a small amount of time to prove the point that his soverity is best, and that man cannot rule himself.

Cancer was never the will of God! And he has already shown us that he will get rid of it, along with all other suffering in the near future under Jesus Kingdom government:

"With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”-Revelation 21:3, 4.

I wrote the OP with people like you in mind who have the understanding you do. When you see the truth it really does help you understand things better. Here is something that explains it quite succinctly:

Why Does God Allow Suffering

All of the images I used I got on the JW.ORG website. I will probably delete them in a couple days. I just added them to aid in making the OP come to life. A picture is worth a thousand words.

If your org is really Gods, why are they protecting pedophiles, does your god protect pedophiles, wouldn’t your god and church.org really be satanic?
Because no Christian organisation should protect pedophiles, under any circumstances

Why do you condone it Edge, why don’t you stand up to evil and call out the criminals

www.jwfacts.com...

Tell me Edge, how can you deny this is a real issue, how can you afford to ignore it, how can you not even be slightly concerned?

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: EdgeofParadise

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: EdgeofParadise

I know you are using all the right words and stuff but why don't JW's acknowledge Jesus as God?

I mean, the gospels are all fairly clear on the matter and then there's the thousands of years of the Church, and before that the thousand more years of Judaism, before the cult even came along.

Look at the shoulders upon which JW's and Mormons stand.

Perhaps there is something in all that old stuff?

Jesus himself said that there would be an apostasy from truth after he went to heaven in an illustration about a field. Do you remember it?

"He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”-Matthew 13:24-30.

Do you know what this illustration means? If you do then it would answer your own question.

I'm fairly sure that it means there was an original crop planted by the farmer and that an enemy of the farmer planted seeds of a poisonous weed to try and destroy the whole crop. The farmer in his wisdom decided that the best option was to wait until harvest and then separate the bad from the good, the bad being thrown into the fire so their seed is totally destroyed.

It's analogous to God having established his church for some time, and then along came the JW's...

You did good. But we don't have to wonder because Jesus even went into further detail if you read a little further along in the account he reveals what it means:

"His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.”  In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man;  the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one,  and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.  Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.  The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen."-Matthew 13:36-43.

Sower of the seed: Jesus, when he came to earth and preached the good news of the kingdom.
The Field: The world of mankind.
The fine seed: The sons of the kingdom (the anointed Christian congregation)
The weeds: Sons of the wicked one.
The enemy: Satan the Devil.
The harvest: The conclusion of the system of things.

The weeds were false, or imitation Christians. They seeped into the Christian congregation after all the apostles died. By the second century there was a great apostasy and mostly weeds sown by the Devil claiming to serve God, but really dishonored him with pagan and false doctrines that they allowed into the apostate Church.

Wheat, or true anointed Christians always existed among them, but they had to suffer at the hands of the apostate Church, and were not separated from it. During the last days a harvest began and Jesus began to collect his wheat out from apostate Christendom. This is done by the preaching work of Jehovah's people. First they had to get rid of all pagan doctrine, and return to the truth from the Bible and practice the true form of Christianity. Then they have been given the commission to preach the good news in all the earth, as a witness to all the nations. Then the end will come.

At that time, false Christians, the weeds will be destroyed, or burned in the fire. The wheat, the anointed Christians, will be raised to heavenly spirit life where they will shine as brightly as the sun in the heaven in the Kingdom of their Father.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Of course I don't know what you beleive. The Bible, which is the truth teaches that God created man perfect. With perfection there was no sin, no sickness, no death. Adam chose of his own freewill to disobey God and thus suffered the consequences of that.

As he only had offspring after he sinned he spread sin to all mankind, and thus all mankind sins and dies. This is what the Bible teaches. But it was not something God willed or purposed. As we saw in James 1:13 God does not cause evil.

Deuteronomy 34:4, 5 puts it clearly:

"The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness who is never unjust;
Righteous and upright is he.
They are the ones who have acted corruptly.
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
They are a crooked and twisted generation!"

Disease is a result of sin, which was the result of man's disobedience. That was a choice that man made. Not God. But God has lovingly provided a way to bring mankind back to perfection and destroy death and sin and sickness. This is all true Bible teaching.

a reply to: EdgeofParadise

So is that standard Jw.org action

Pretend anyone who questions your satanic cult doesn’t really exist, don’t answer them, make them invisible, disfellowship the, me?
Ha ha, as if I care that you won’t engage me

Here I stand, I won’t go anywhere, I like being shunned by Jw,org

Why do you supporting organisation that protects predators who destroy the lives of the innocent children, why won’t you Edge, why won’t you even question them?


There is a lesson here Edge
People want to stop you from disturbing them at the door
Question why child predators are protected in the Jw,org organisation

Jehovah Witnesses, protecting child predators for a century, probably more, denying there is an issue, protecting evil, JW,org, cult of the pedophile

a reply to: EdgeofParadise

Now you're contradicting yourself. You said above that you made this thread for people who believe as I do.

If the BIble is the truth as you claim, then I've demonstrated clearly from Matthew where Jesus said that God is the source of natural forces and that those forces are used intentionally by Him.

Either your source is incorrect or you are in your interpretation even given the JW belief that the Christian concept of the Trinity is false.

Should we believe Jesus or should we believe you?

a reply to: ManFromEurope

Ridicule is a very potent weapon if you read Saul Alinsky, who was a self proclaimed follower of Lucifer himself.

People have asked about why God allows suffering for thousands of years.

I can’t pretend to stand in Gods shoes and give you a complete answer. Jesus himself says in the book of James that ,’You will have suffering in this world.’ He doesn’t say you might, he says it’s going to happen. The book of Corinthians says that we see things imperfectly in this life like a broken mirror, but one day All will be known.

I can’t pretend to know the mind of God, but I can tell you from personal experience, nobody ever tries to know God, or be a better person until they have to through personal trials and tribulations.

I can share with you what I think about it, and a brief analogy.

My sister used to have one of those dolls with a string in the back that said, ‘I love you’ every time you pulled it. Of course, the doll didn’t really love anyone, it was programmed to say that.

If God just snapped his fingers as you say, and forcibly programmed everyone in the world to love each other, would that really be love? Of course not. Love involves a choice. You must have free will to make that choice. God wants us to experience love, so he gave us free will.

Take your hand for example, you can use that hand to hold a gun and shoot someone in the face, or you can use that hand to feed people that are hungry. However it’s unfair to shoot someone and then blame God for all the evil your hand just did.

Suffering is not good, but good can most definitely come out of suffering. I can personally attest to that.

I doubt anything I say will resonate with you or anyone else, all I can do is try and read an interpret the scriptures as I see them, not others. That’s the wonderful thing about the Bible, when you read it in a prayerful way, gods wisdom begins to reveal itself to you. And different people might glean different layers of that wisdom from the same stories and verses.

I believe God wants us to be committed to him and his will. All I can do is pray for wisdom,and hope to know all one day when this life is over.

originally posted by: EdgeofParadise

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: EdgeofParadise

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: EdgeofParadise

I know you are using all the right words and stuff but why don't JW's acknowledge Jesus as God?

I mean, the gospels are all fairly clear on the matter and then there's the thousands of years of the Church, and before that the thousand more years of Judaism, before the cult even came along.

Look at the shoulders upon which JW's and Mormons stand.

Perhaps there is something in all that old stuff?

Jesus himself said that there would be an apostasy from truth after he went to heaven in an illustration about a field. Do you remember it?

"He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”-Matthew 13:24-30.

Do you know what this illustration means? If you do then it would answer your own question.

I'm fairly sure that it means there was an original crop planted by the farmer and that an enemy of the farmer planted seeds of a poisonous weed to try and destroy the whole crop. The farmer in his wisdom decided that the best option was to wait until harvest and then separate the bad from the good, the bad being thrown into the fire so their seed is totally destroyed.

It's analogous to God having established his church for some time, and then along came the JW's...

You did good. But we don't have to wonder because Jesus even went into further detail if you read a little further along in the account he reveals what it means:

"His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.”  In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man;  the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one,  and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.  Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.  The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen."-Matthew 13:36-43.

Sower of the seed: Jesus, when he came to earth and preached the good news of the kingdom.
The Field: The world of mankind.
The fine seed: The sons of the kingdom (the anointed Christian congregation)
The weeds: Sons of the wicked one.
The enemy: Satan the Devil.
The harvest: The conclusion of the system of things.

The weeds were false, or imitation Christians. They seeped into the Christian congregation after all the apostles died. By the second century there was a great apostasy and mostly weeds sown by the Devil claiming to serve God, but really dishonored him with pagan and false doctrines that they allowed into the apostate Church.

Wheat, or true anointed Christians always existed among them, but they had to suffer at the hands of the apostate Church, and were not separated from it. During the last days a harvest began and Jesus began to collect his wheat out from apostate Christendom. This is done by the preaching work of Jehovah's people. First they had to get rid of all pagan doctrine, and return to the truth from the Bible and practice the true form of Christianity. Then they have been given the commission to preach the good news in all the earth, as a witness to all the nations. Then the end will come.

At that time, false Christians, the weeds will be destroyed, or burned in the fire. The wheat, the anointed Christians, will be raised to heavenly spirit life where they will shine as brightly as the sun in the heaven in the Kingdom of their Father.

At the time of this alleged great apostasy (do you have any actual historical or evidential support for that?) there were still true believers in the Church (the good crop) whose Gospels and letters are precisely what JW's reject.

The more you attempt to discredit early Christianity, the flimsier the current position of the JW's becomes.

If the original Christians are the true Christians, that define what Christianity is and does. Then that means that the JW's aren't the true Christians.

Jesus never claimed divinity for Himself, but several times early Christians claimed that of Him and Jesus didn't ever correct them. When Jesus stood before the sanhedrin, they said that He was claiming to be God and Jesus reply was "You have said that I am" (a loaded phrase because "I am" is one of the names of God).

Yes there is a lot of evidence! Too much to be discussed here. And that gives me an idea.

When I have the time I will sit down and write out a new thread, a very in depth and detailed one about this apostasy and how it developed and the historical proofs of it, as well as the Bible's own prophecy of it happening. I don't know when it will be. I have been writing here lately because my fybromayalgia has been acting up and not letting me sleep good at night.

I am active with other things throughout the day and do not always have the time to dedicate I do to write as I have been these past few days. I will try and get a thread up soon though, probably within the week. Not to argue that you are wrong. But to enlighten those who are interested.

I've been studying this for almost four decades, and have read dozens of books on the subject. Along with much other things. There is plenty of proof written, even Edward Gibbon in his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire goes into great details of the apostasy in the Church in his voluminous works.