Picking Up Trash While Black

I guess we will agree to disagree.

It is actually relevant in that in comparison say a center left democrat, or non progressive liberal, or more moderate conservative, this type of person (progressive liberal ie sjw) is more often the type to escalate situations and get in your face than to calmly have an unemotional discussion or listen to opposing view points and or requests. The video speaks for itself I believe.


a reply to: trustmeimdoctor

I just checked the specs and the grabber is 36" long and weighs .5lbs.

So it is not at all a blunt force object.

Crap like this happens daily.

The only difference here is it fits the narrative that blacks are always oppressed, and cops are always the oppressor. That is how it gained national attention. Change the skin color of the victim to white and it wouldn't have gained any traction.

This certainly doesn't make it right. But it doesn't warrant this much attention either. All it does is gives progressives another non-issue to point at and claim there is a problem. Meanwhile ignoring a multitude of other social issues that plague.

originally posted by: JAY1980
Crap like this happens daily.

The only difference here is it fits the narrative that blacks are always oppressed, and cops are always the oppressor. That is how it gained national attention. Change the skin color of the victim to white and it wouldn't have gained any traction.

This certainly doesn't make it right. But it doesn't warrant this much attention either. All it does is gives progressives another non-issue to point at and claim there is a problem. Meanwhile ignoring a multitude of other social issues that plague.

Example please?

Do you know of any videos existing of a similar situation but the suspect is a different hue.

OK, I've read the comments, watched the video, and here's my take:

A cop has the authority to stop a person they suspect of either committing or being about to commit a crime and investigate. They have to have that authority to do their job. They also have the right to defend themselves if they perceive a threat. That's why they are armed. So I see nothing wrong about stopping to ask for ID.

As I understand it, the suspect provided ID. Now, a school ID in my experience does not contain an address, but it does contain a photo and is proof the person attends a school. I'm going to assume the school is in the local area since he lives there. I know criminals are kinda dumb on average, but to whip out an ID when they are about to commit a crime? Nah, that stretches credulity. If they are that dumb, they're not smart enough to manage to get away with doing anything.

He's picking up garbage. He has a bag of garbage in one hand and a clamp in the other. Now I've seen garbage pickers. I don't use them because they break too easy if you pick up anything larger than a tin can (and it better be empty). Not exactly a deadly weapon... at most, he might surprise someone if he swung it enough to get to an actual weapon. Is it considered a blunt force weapon? Only if he swings it. It has a legitimate use and is not capable of inflicting injury like, say, a club.

A neighbor verifies he lives there. OK, good. Does the cop know the neighbor is legitimately a neighbor? Well, considering the neighbor was not themselves held for questioning, I'd say so. There are only two realistic possibilities here: either the neighbor does live there (in which case they are verification that no crime is involved and the officer should thank the gentleman and leave) or the neighbor is an accessory to the suspected crime and should be held as such as well. They weren't held, so the cop obviously accepted their statement as truth.

So we have some ID provided, a reasonable explanation for what is going on, a verification from a neighbor as to residence... and a gun gets drawn? What? Can anyone say "over-reaction"? And then they call for backup? And out of all this backup, no one has the thought to even ask why we are about to kill this person?

Cops have authority to demand someone stand down from whatever they are doing. I cannot dispute that. But I will also quote Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park (and I'll even bold it for the comprehension impaired):

"Just because one can do a thing, it does not follow that one should do a thing."

This is abuse of authority, plain and simple. I can think of no possible way to defend the cops' actions. At least the main instigator has been fired, but I shudder to think what might have happened. The man was obviously getting upset, and rightfully so, but that also tends to escalate the situation. That's how most police-related tragedies occur: the cop starts with a good healthy dose of arrogance, ticks off the victim, which escalates the situation, which the cop then escalates farther, and it all spirals downhill.

Once when I lived in a city (yes, that happened for a while), I had a run-in with the cops. I had some stuff stolen, and then my wife heard someone "messing around" outside that night. I came out of bed, grabbed the trusty .357 Mag (stainless, S&W Model 66, kept it loaded for bear) and headed out the door. The last thing I told my wife was to call the cops and make sure to tell them I was out there too. I did grab my Stetson as I went out, but that, my worn out work boots, and my blue jeans were the only clothing I had on.

I checked the property military style, weapon up and cocked, staying close to the shadows and buildings to make for a smaller target. I went section by section until I came to my trucks. I had two of them being turned into one, parked nose-to-nose about 4 foot from the property fence. There was absolutely no light behind them... I was crouched behind the front truck trying to figure out how to safely check that last area when a car light shone through. I took the opportunity and came around, gun leveled to fire. Nothing. Property is clear. I release the hammer slowly, set the safety, drop the gun to my side, and turn around.

The lights were from the cop car. I waved my empty hand at them to let them know they were at the right house. They had their searchlight on and it hit me in the face as I waved. I heard someone say "DROP THE GUN!" Hey, no problem officer! I'm not in the mood to get into a useless gunfight for no reason. I hold my arms out from my side, and gently toss the gun into some grass. I raise both hands in the air and yell out "I LIVE HERE! MY WIFE CALLED YOU!"

Two cops approach me with guns drawn. I repeat in a lower voice, "My name is _______________. This is my house. My wife called you. She was supposed to tell you I had gone out to protect my property." They found the gun where I had tossed it, and started asking me questions, which I answered. They wanted ID; it was inside. After a minute of this, my wife comes out the back door screaming "DON'T SHOOT HIM! THAT'S MY HUSBAND!"

Until this point, I had no complaints. The cops saw a potentially dangerous situation and took precautions. However, they still held their guns on a half-naked guy who is being totally compliant and had flagged them down after the guy's wife just verified who he was. One of them was actually visibly shaking while the gun was trained on me. At that point, believing that I would be shot accidentally otherwise, I simply said "Hoss, you need to lower that gun before someone gets hurt." He glanced at the other officer, who nodded, and he lowered his gun.

The problem came when they told me to not be walking outside on my own property at night. But that's another story, and I didn't confront them at that point about it. Later at the police station, I did confront the acting police chief... and that is a fun story as well. Let's just say it was the last time the cops entered my property without my express permission. I was on my terms then, not theirs.

The point being, one has to be careful dealing with the police. Anything could have happened that night to escalate that situation into a news story; thankfully, nothing went wrong. There are good cops out there, but there are also thugs. I was lucky to get one cop who was smart enough to assess the situation; too many times, that guy is nowhere around. The vast majority of cops just ain't too bright, and that is a dangerous combination; it's one we really need to address.

TheRedneck

a reply to: JAY1980

It is a problem that needs to be dealt with though. It just isn't about racism. It's about police abusing thier power and getting away with it in most cases. I shouldn't have to fear being shot by police when doing yard work or going out for a walk.

exactly, they are obsessed with identity/racial politics.

a reply to: JAY1980

That's exactly why if I have to draw my weapon to defend my property I am definitely not calling the cops unless I have already fired shots. Most likely anyone will just get scared off by seeing and hearing me state that I am armed.

a reply to: TheRedneck

a reply to: trustmeimdoctor

It just isn't about racism. It's about police abusing thier power and getting away with it in most cases.

Not always about racism, certainly, but sometimes it is. It seems more connected to class warfare to me, to be honest.

Looking back to the video, look at how the victim was dressed... old-looking, baggy clothes. That is absolutely NO reason for what happened (at least I hope not, since I dress that way on a good day at home), but it does provide a bit of insight into the cops' potential mindset: hobo up to no good. Arrest him. He needs off the streets before someone complains.

The problem is that the cop is not always right. And tragically, the ones who will be more likely to become upset at the intrusion are the innocent. Someone who is truly up to no good will likely walk away griping to himself; a resident has nowhere to walk away to and will resent the intrusion into their property. That's where common sense comes into play.

The old "innocent until proven guilty" thing applies to the courtroom, not to the streets. But it needs to be considered every single time a cop approaches a suspect. That cop needs to understand that without some reasonable evidence, they are dealing with an innocent man; they can can change that dynamic if they discover something is amiss. If they're wrong and they make an arrest, no harm no foul really... the person is inconvenienced by having to appear in court. If they're wrong and the situation escalates into violence... that's a different story. The court cannot bring back a dead person.

We simply need higher standards for our police, and not the standards that can be quantified. We need police who know how to think on their feet. That's becoming a rare thing, though, so...

TheRedneck

a reply to: chris_stibrany

That's exactly why if I have to draw my weapon to defend my property I am definitely not calling the cops unless I have already fired shots.

Looking back, that's what I should have done. But, it was my first time living in a city, I was naive, and my country upbringing told me to not rock the boat unless I had to. So, I did stoopid.

Live and learn. Today, I would likely call the cops too, but that's because by the time they get here the only thing left to do is tote the bodies off. That, and they'll have fun spotting me out here unless I want to be spotted.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I did grab my Stetson as I went out

Too bad it was not all captured and on youtube.

I agree with your assessment and i have a suspicion that the officer wanted to search the man even though he knew he lived there. That is often how such goes if you are confronted by police for something and prove them wrong in their suspicion but give them the sense of you being contrary.

The clue to this is that the trash grabber was not an issue when the officer was getting the guy's id. It became an issue when the officer likely decided he wanted to get handsy with the guy.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: UncleTomahawk

What an idiot. Put down the bucket and go talk to the police. This guy has no self control. This is a training video on how to get shot while doing nothing.

Yea this guy is outta line. I mean who runs around picking up trash on their own property and expects to not be threatened, tasered, and shot.

He deserves to be harassed, duh.

How about the cops F*CK OFF? How about that?

a reply to: UncleTomahawk

Too bad it was not all captured and on youtube.

You mean too bad what happened later on when I drove to the police station wasn't captured. Seriously ticked off redneck in a station full of city slickers. It would still be going viral.

i have a suspicion that the officer wanted to search the man even though he knew he lived there

Quite likely.

IMO we have too many subjective allowances police can draw on. How can someone "resist arrest" when the cop had no reason to arrest them? How is it that a cop can use deadly force to "defend themselves" when no one else can see any reason to defend themselves? How can "uncooperative" become "reasonable suspicion"?

With great authority comes great responsibility. Any cop who cannot elaborate why he took the actions he took after an incident is simply not fit to be on the beat. Any cop who trumps up a charge just to have something the charge their "suspect" with is in the same boat. "Resisting arrest" should not be applicable unless there was already sufficient evidence to make the arrest on another charge.

TheRedneck

post remove text auto quote

Just a few keywords for higher powers...


deescalation training would go a long way in avoiding these situations.

Also police quotas do not much good.

a reply to: TheRedneck

I logged in for the first time in forever just to star your post. Quality. Well-reasoned and comprehensive. Reminds me of the "old ATS" people keep talking about. Good to know that it's still here, regardless of political affiliation.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: trustmeimdoctor

It just isn't about racism. It's about police abusing thier power and getting away with it in most cases.

Not always about racism, certainly, but sometimes it is. It seems more connected to class warfare to me, to be honest.

Looking back to the video, look at how the victim was dressed... old-looking, baggy clothes. That is absolutely NO reason for what happened (at least I hope not, since I dress that way on a good day at home), but it does provide a bit of insight into the cops' potential mindset: hobo up to no good. Arrest him. He needs off the streets before someone complains.

The problem is that the cop is not always right. And tragically, the ones who will be more likely to become upset at the intrusion are the innocent. Someone who is truly up to no good will likely walk away griping to himself; a resident has nowhere to walk away to and will resent the intrusion into their property. That's where common sense comes into play.

The old "innocent until proven guilty" thing applies to the courtroom, not to the streets. But it needs to be considered every single time a cop approaches a suspect. That cop needs to understand that without some reasonable evidence, they are dealing with an innocent man; they can can change that dynamic if they discover something is amiss. If they're wrong and they make an arrest, no harm no foul really... the person is inconvenienced by having to appear in court. If they're wrong and the situation escalates into violence... that's a different story. The court cannot bring back a dead person.

We simply need higher standards for our police, and not the standards that can be quantified. We need police who know how to think on their feet. That's becoming a rare thing, though, so...

TheRedneck

Well reasoned, logical, common sense comment.

Something went wrong, sure you belong here?



ETA: LMAO post above mine thinking the same thing. Great minds and all that...

I just know that in this culture anyone defending themselves is likely to get shot by the cops even if they are defending their property. So yeah I would only call them IF shoots had been fired. Most people only need to have a weapon in their face to make them change their minds about robbery etc.

a reply to: TheRedneck

a reply to: ihavenoaccount
a reply to: MykeNukem

Redneck don't change.

Redneck like the compliments, though.

TheRedneck

a reply to: chris_stibrany

I just know that in this culture anyone defending themselves is likely to get shot by the cops even if they are defending their property.

A large part of that is that officers are trained to "take control of the situation" before anything else. That makes sense in a way: they can't do anything if the situation is not under control.

But many times, that control can be more easily accomplished through non-combative means. Criminals are used to being controlled by the police... one of the failings of our criminal justice system is that familiarity breeds fondness among humans, so a judge that sees someone regularly in his courtroom is less likely to take offense at him being there and will subconsciously go easier on them. The regular criminal knows the judge and knows what to say to placate the judge. It becomes just another something to do instead of an attempt to punish or prevent future crimes.

In contrast, someone like me is not familiar with how the police handle themselves. Why should I be? I rarely interact with them. So there may be some unwritten rule that criminals know on where to put their hands that I don't, and that ignorance can serve to upset the cop I am dealing with. It is not the responsibility of every citizen to figure out what the cop expects; it is the responsibility of the cop to understand how people will likely react to their presence and orders, both regular criminals and otherwise law-abiding folk.

For example, when dealing with someone who is a regular criminal, the words "get on the ground!" will likely cause the suspect to immediately lie flat on the ground. If I were pulled over and the cop drew his weapon and shouted "get on the ground!" I seriously doubt I would be expecting that and thus would likely not comply as fast as a criminal would. If the cop is not prepared to deal with someone not expecting the order, he will likely see my hesitation as non-compliance and ramp up his attempts to "control the situation." In reality, his attempts are simply making the situation worse at that point, because I would already be confused (or possibly not physically fit enough to quickly make the transition).

This, I believe, is what is to blame for the majority of the escalations. In the subject video of this thread, the cop probably just made the assumption he was dealing with a hobo and was irritated that this hobo dared to even question him. After all, a hobo should know what he wants. But this wasn't a hobo; this was the resident and he didn't know what the cop wanted. And so it escalated.

We have to change how police are trained. They need to be able to handle dangerous criminals and deal with ordinary people... and most importantly perhaps, to know the difference.

TheRedneck

a reply to: dfnj2015

Innocent?
We have a saying about that in Texas.
"Everybody's guilty of something, everbody should serve a little time". Time in prison that is, because after all, Texas is the "Incarceration State". Come on down, we've built one for you, a cell that is. No AC but you get three hots and a cot.