The two beasts of the Apocalypse [short version]

a reply to: whereislogic
Dutch and English are considered by linguists as descendant languages from the Germanic branch of Indo-European languages and that is the reason that I spoke of Germanic languages.

Utnapisjtim and I were discussing his thesis, which is in the OP, and relies on manipulation of language between Latin and Hebrew in use at the time of Jesus Christ.

I disagree that Jehovah is a valid replacement for the Tetragrammaton but have already addressed the specifics of my disagreement in other threads.

I know you want to get people to believe that 'Jehovah' is the most accurate rendition of the Tetragrammaton but that is off topic to the OP and the subsequent discussion of the OP's thesis. I am not interested in your opinion or that of the unfortunately moniker'd JW's cult.

Please speak to the topic.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Main thesis

And your source/s is/are what?

Personally i dont think any of this matters. Religion to its core are based on old raditions past on Down the chain. THe Vatican and the US should be enough proof of that. The Idols are all there in the Public.

The pope is exactly what Our Bible describes him to be. THe US is also as the Bible describes it to be. Even we are exactly what the Bible describe us to be. We are just to ignorant to see it. Even that is describes in Our Bible....

It wont matter much what we argue here on this page. What is writen will happened..... no matter what is argued.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Jesus was most likely conceived by insemination (seriously) and was delivered by c-section like Julius Caesar himself, hence the word Caesarian section and the idea that Caesar was a son of the gods, esp. Mars and Jupiter, look what the Centurion says about Jesus when he says «his last words»-- certainly, this man was a son of the gods i.e. Caesar to any legionary. Thus, Mother Mary was still intact after the birth of Jesus and Joseph was not to blame, though he was the father genetically, the more than sixty years old Joseph claimed he had no sexual contact with the young Mary who was at the time in her early teens leading to the conception of Jesus, he wasn't even present when Mary got pregnant, but a messenger named Gabriel. His message was the Word of God, in this case the Y-chromosome of Julius Caesar and his only direct heir, Caesarion.

Don't you find it strange that only two gospels (Matthew and Luke) mention the immaculate conception . That Gospel of John, Gospel of Mark, and writings of Paul/Saul, fail to mention the greatest miracle of all time at all.

Its clear from latter writings the Roman Church wanted to convert all Jews to Christainity. So its very possible that Gospel of John and Mark were created (or at least modified) to include the immaculate conception to annoit Jesus as the Jewish messiah that was prophesied in Isaiah 7:14. But they made a mistake, The Greek version of Torah (Septuagint) mistranslated Isaiah 7:14 word "almah", which means “young woman” to "virgin". So the Jews didn't buy any of the nonsense.

So Jesus wasn't special. He was an ordinary man that became the king of kings in a spiritual sense by conquering the internal devil that plagues us all.

That is by far, a much more powerful message than todays NT portrays. That you and I can follow his footsteps.

a reply to: glend

What?!

Matthew 1:18

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

John 16:23-28

23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

a reply to: Deetermined

Matthews words refer to a physical miracle and that of John to his spiritual nature.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Deetermined

Matthews words refer to a physical miracle and that of John to his spiritual nature.

Read verse 28 again. It clearly states that he came from the Father before he came into the world and is returning to where he originally came. The book of John goes into more specifics about this.

John 1:1-3,10,14

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 9:5-38

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

John 10:28

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 14:2-3

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

a reply to: Deetermined

Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

Why did Jesus teach his followers the lord prayer ( "Our" Father who art in heaven") if we were not also siblings made in the image of GOD?

The only difference between us and Jesus is that Jesus achieved a fully awakened state of enlightenment. A person in that state speaks from a mind-set of the Father. So when Jesus says he comes forth from GOD, he is saying he was born again achieving enlightenment (there are different levels). So speaks with the authority of the Father.

In Gospel of Thomas Jesus explains how to achieve that state (awakening). Which is the Pearl of Great Price.

a reply to: glend

Why did Jesus teach his followers the lord prayer ( "Our" Father who art in heaven") if we were not also siblings made in the image of GOD?

A visible God was not known to the Jews at this time that Jesus came upon the scene. You must remember that national Judaism was controlled by the Sadducee's who did not believe in any afterlife whatsoever. They were the ruling party of Judaism at this time and being the ruling party had great influence to many of the fence sitters of that day. Jesus came to teach His doctrine to the fence sitters and disbelievers and not to those few who were justified. Most all of the Jews in this period had no doctrine nor Torah scroll except that which the Temple dictated and sadly this was the Sadducee's doctrine.

a reply to: Seede

The Sadducee's rejected the oral Torah, but Pharisee's hid the keys from the public as well. So Jesus was between a rock and a hard place, no doubt.

I once had a work friend that out of the blue said to me that he doesn't want to go heaven. Adding - playing harps all day, sounds boring! That had me thinking. Is attaining heaven our ultimate quest? Or is the quest to find truth. And isn't that whats life about, experiencing truth, first hand.

So the road to enlightenemt is perhaps life itself. And when we experience all, that can be experienced, I guess we can move on. To what, who knows. We may be just a wave in the ocean of GOD that dissapates back into the ocean, enriching the whole, when the process is over. The answers to these questions arn't spelled out in Torah or NT.

Jesus was not GOD. He was just one of the paths to GOD. But rome couldn't announce papal surpremacy on a path. So enriched the story to suit their needs.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Read Isaiah 53. It will explain it all and why Jesus said he came to fulfill the scriptures. It was to cover their sins.

No he was killed for our misfortune and sins, that's a nice way to say that we are all creeps. Jesus should never have been killed but religion killed him.

a reply to: chr0naut

or (depending on the ruling emperor)

a reply to: glend

Kudos! Still, the fact that the immaculate conception IS mentioned is a fair clue, and all put together (the Caesars were delivered by c-section) it turns out that Jesus was most likely the son of Caesarion. That's the reason for all the fuzz. There were plenty messiases Jesus was just the right one. He was the Son of the Gods. Caesar.

a reply to: glend

Heaven is for Amadeus, Brubeck and Lemmy. The rest of us are better off down here in Paradise.

a reply to: glend

Jesus was not GOD. He was just one of the paths to GOD. But rome couldn't announce papal surpremacy on a path. So enriched the story to suit their needs.

You have neglected one very important thing and that is the first three decades of the Jesus movement were not those of the Romans but were those of the Jews who called themselves Nazarene's. These Nazarene's believed that Jesus indeed was not the God of Moses and if you will note the scriptures do not say that Jesus was God. Jesus was not charged with the claim of being God but was charged with the claim of being the Begotten Son of God. This was the charge in the Hall of Hewn Stones by the seventy members of the Jerusalem Sanhedrin. The Apostle John relates that it was not Jesus that was the Creator from God but it was "The Word" who became Jesus who is the Creator from God. There is a vast difference in understanding this from what is misunderstood by most. So let us reexamine exactly what John knew that we did not know.

The "Word" changed substance from celestial to terrestrial and became Jesus. Even though Jesus was conceived by the Spirit God, only the substance was changed. His Spirit was not changed and always remained the same. This is why He was both the son of man and the Son of God. The "Word" is the Creator regardless of what word you want to call Him. The terrestrial Jesus created nothing in the flesh of man but the Celestial "Word" did create just as John tells us.

John_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Where does that leave us today? Jesus has lived and died as a terrestrial entity and shall never return as Jesus. His terrestrial body has returned to its source but His name remains to us as our redeemer. In His resurrection he is restored to His formal celestial entity as the "Word of God"--

So in your understanding that Jesus was not God is partly right in one sense of your understanding but not as John has written. The Roman organizations [church] and their offshoots also do not teach this in the manner as the Apostle John teaches. The Roman Church is not of any part of the first Nazarene movement and actually has no part in the formation of their synagogue.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

1 Timothy 4J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS) Beware of false teachers: warn your people 4 1-2 God’s Spirit specifically tells us that in later days there will be men who abandon the true faith and allow themselves to be spiritually seduced by teachings of the devil, teachings given by men who are lying hypocrites, whose consciences are as dead as seared flesh.

This Sir, is YOU.

a reply to: silo13

Well he is right about one thing...... Religion,... or put in a different perspective, the jewish understanding of religion killed Jesus.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: silo13

Well he is right about one thing...... Religion,... or put in a different perspective, the jewish understanding of religion killed Jesus.

Yes, but, their rebellion against the God that saved them from the rule of Egypt was an act of willful disobedience.

And, WE ALL, every sinner, killed Jesus, not just the Jews.

Anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life.

Done deal.

a reply to: Seede

So in your understanding that Jesus was not God is partly right in one sense of your understanding but not as John has written.

Thanks for detailed explantion Seede, From what you have said it sounds that Jesus merged with the Sabda Brahman so is known in hindu terms as a Satguru.

An excellent explanation of Satguru was written by Meher Baba....

Meher Baba equated worship of the Satguru with worship of God: "Consciously or unconsciously, directly or indirectly, each and every creature, each and every human being — in one form or the other — strives to assert individuality. But when eventually man consciously experiences that he is Infinite, Eternal and Indivisible, then he is fully conscious of his individuality as God, and as such experiences Infinite Knowledge, Infinite Power and Infinite Bliss. Thus Man becomes God, and is recognized as a Perfect Master, Satguru, or Kutub. To worship this Man is to worship God.

a reply to: glend

But Jesus didnt want to be worshiped. Jesus said that we should worship the father/God in heaven.


Even Jesus did pray to his father. Jesus never worshiped any idoles or himself.