Germany's preferred replacement for the Tornado

According to the Spiegel, France is putting pressure on Berlin not to buy the EA-18G as a partial replacement.

They want Germany to procure the recently proposed (non-existent) Eurofighter EW variant instead, because they hope to integrate the EW tech into the upcoming FCAS project.

The decision will still be made early next year. If the coalition survives the upcoming SPD chairmanship change of course.

German source only:
www.spiegel.de...

France is blaming politics for its departure from BAE..I think the Uk has done quite well on its own in the past.."IF" it can keep the politics out of it on its own soil..
Dassault looks to Germany

originally posted by: Blackfinger
France is blaming politics for its departure from BAE..I think the Uk has done quite well on its own in the past.."IF" it can keep the politics out of it on its own soil..
Dassault looks to Germany

Of course politics are to blame (or to celebrate in this case).

German politics put stop to Typhoon exports to prove they are sorry for WW2. French politics make it an unattractive and untrustworthy partner.

UK politics is well placed in BAE Systems too.

The UK Government (politics) who signed the Al-Yamamah contract with Saudi. The Governments sign off on the purchase of, and development of assets that industry cannot afford to fund.

It all about politics!

Daft comment in my opinion but thanks for posting!

Reports are making the rounds that Germany is preparing to buy as many as 90 Typhoons, as well as 30 F-18E/F(almost certainly Fs), as well as 15 EA-18Gs. The F models would give Germany the B61 capability that they need, and the Typhoons would protect the European industrial base.

My bet is still that they end up with Tiffs, including an ECR version like the Tornadoes. Made here; buy here. Most of the work was done and/or funded by German groups. Helps prop up EU production.

The nuclear mission is going to be a major hurdle for them, but I think they'll get around it saying they have a clear roadmap for the capability using the Tiff in the future. I'm not sure all the roadblocks we can throw toward that end will matter.

Politically, they'll say, "Well, we had a plan. You just wouldn't approve it because you wanted us to buy Growlers and/or Lightnings". And they'll be mostly right.

a reply to: RadioRobert

The source talking about them making the announcement soon is usually pretty accurate, so we'll see. It would be interesting to see a Hornet airframe with Luftwaffe markings.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: RadioRobert

The source talking about them making the announcement soon is usually pretty accurate, so we'll see. It would be interesting to see a Hornet airframe with Luftwaffe markings.

your source is correct, dpa has confirmed this

It'd be great for Boeing, and good for the Navy and Marines. Just not sure how it makes much sense for Germany. Boutique fleet is more expensive operationally, and the money goes elsewhere. Tiff has higher development costs, but all the money stays home and it gives the finger to the US. Recent history says, choice B every time. haha

originally posted by: mightmight

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: RadioRobert

The source talking about them making the announcement soon is usually pretty accurate, so we'll see. It would be interesting to see a Hornet airframe with Luftwaffe markings.

your source is correct, dpa has confirmed this

Just found this.

The internal plan prepared by the Bundeswehr has already been discussed with industry, according to the dpa news agency, but Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer (CDU) has yet to approve the plan.

a reply to: RadioRobert

What was your preferred solution?

Germany can't afford to develop a dedicated Tornado replacement. They could have gone all Typhoon or buy American. I would have preferred the F-35, but that was impossible due to politics.

Buying Boeing should be relatively (you never know these days with them I guess) risk-free and more importantly, awards the Luftwaffe with a very mature and versatile system. The proposed Hornet fleet will have multiple times the combat power of the Tornados. At least if they procure the necessary ordnance, which is highly unlikely.

The Typhoon fleet benefits from this as well. The Luftwaffe will finally be able to replace their Tranche 1 birds not with jets that are actually usable in combat.

a reply to: mightmight

I don't have a preferred solution. I can't make a dime from the Bundeswehr either way. *shrug*

If I was in the German defense ministry, my preference would have been an all Tiff buy.

Local industries are supported, the French don't have a tantrum resulting in FCAS program headaches, twists the US arm on the nuclear mission, making larger future Tiff buys from other users more likely, more capable and survivable than the Tonkas or Shornets. You fund development for an ECR variant as part of the buy and hope it catches on with other Tiff users, ...

They are not willing to spend the money for upkeep of the equipment so I dont see the point of buying new planes, that govt has shown time and time again they will not support their military.

originally posted by: RadioRobert

Just found this.

The internal plan prepared by the Bundeswehr has already been discussed with industry, according to the dpa news agency, but Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer (CDU) has yet to approve the plan.

Not approve but formally announce which was scheduled to happen in the coming days. The plan just leaked prematurely, there won't be anything else from the Ministry of Defense.

It's of course always possible the SPD will oppose this due to politics, but it's highly likely they compromise in the end.
And even if they drag this issue out til the election next year, the Ministry of Defense will remain with the CDU anyway and the Greens would have bigger fish to fry in a hypothetical government with the Christian Union. So this is happening, no matter the political bs. Maybe just not tomorrow.

Politics encompasses a lot of things.
recent link

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: mightmight
If I was in the German defense ministry, my preference would have been an all Tiff buy.

They don't like one type fleets either and they are in a bin on the EW side to do Nato commitments. Airbus proposed to develop an EW variant of the Typhoon, but they have very little experience in the field and no one at the Ministry of Defense seemed to be willing to entertain the idea.

But be that as it may, the key issue was nuclear sharing. Unless Germany would be willing to give up their American nukes, the US could effectively force them to buy an American aircraft for the mission by simply refusing to certify the Typhoon, unless Airbus hands over key propriertary information. Which would have never happened.

The alternative would have been to ditch American nukes and enter a nuclear sharing agreement with France. Which is what France actually proposed to Germany multiple times in the last years even. But for weird reasons never publicly explained, German politicians try to avoid even responding to those proposals. Never made much sense to me. It would make much sense militarily and would be a great political move building a pan European defense architecture.
If I had to guess as to why this isn't happening, I'd say such a move could clash with undisclosed bilateral agreements Germany made or was forced to make with the US at one point or another. Entirely speculative, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
Politics encompasses a lot of things.
recent link

Hence they compromised and are buying 90 Typhoons as well. Not to mention they get a firm commitment to developinging FCAS.
Airbus will be fine.

a reply to: mightmight


I agree, mostly. I explained in my post, that if the US throws up significant roadblocks, it just provides them with an out. I didn't get into the France integration stuff, but that's seems inevitable on long enough timelines. They have options. And the best course seems to be a Tiff buy in my opinion.

Again, from the outside looking in, a split buy would be great for Boeing and a small boon to the Navy and Marines. Short-term, it provides a faster ECR capability in central Europe.

Long-term, the Tiff option would offer a stronger force structure, more flexibility with FCAS timelines, EU economic benefits (including potential ECR and nuclear capabilities sales for Tiff users), integrated European policies increasingly independent from US policymakers, etc.

a reply to: mightmight

"A split solution cannot be the preferred choice. A decision against German and European companies could not be explained to our employees and German taxpayers,” the union writes.

Noone likes a compromise in politics. Haha

a reply to: RadioRobert

They really can't look at long-term options. The Tornados is already overdue for a replacement and the political decision i already years behind.
They can't wait for Airbus to get its act together and develop and Typhoon EW variant and for the US to eventually maybe certify for the nuclear mission.
If they were able to delay the Tornado retirement for that long they'd jump at the chance and move directly to a Typhoon/FCAS fleet. But they don't have the time and they are not willing to sacrifice nuclear sharing or the EW mission.

You see, in their minds, EW is a pure, noble and good form of air combat. Shooting, bombing or god forbid killing anyone is bad, even in war. It's much more preferable to sit on the sidelines and lecture everyone else about their moral failure while you're knocking out some radars. Worked so well in the past, under no circumstances can they afford to lose this political capability.

a reply to: mightmight

Honestly, the ECR capability is primarily akin to a F-4G. Much of the kit is geared to pinpointing ADS sites and suppressing them. I'm honestly not sure the dated pure-ECM component is any more capable than the DASS on a Tiff. Even in wattage. It's just role-oriented. A dedicated SEAD version of the Tiffs akin to the ECR shouldn't be too difficult to field by 2026. Especially if other users get attracted and put additional weight ($) behind it. Something approaching the Growlers' component would be more difficult, but not at all impossible.

They've got leverage against the nuclear component, too. Either telling us to put up or shut up, or looking at transitioning to a closer Amitié Franco-Allemande. Or both.