Germany's preferred replacement for the Tornado

Just revisiting this thread. Are the German Tornados worn out or something? Surely they could struggle on for another decade as they have been used for nothing much except sitting in hangers. The RAF Tornados have been in constant use, so can see why have been retired.

Anyway. Reading elsewhere the certification for nuclear weapons for the Typhoon may stretch to 2025, with the F35 likely to be in the early 2020s. Of course Rafale is already nuclear capable, but not for American nukes and would the US be keen for the French to be integrating such important weapons? Think not.

Germany will buy Typhoon, perhaps with an upgraded package e.g. conformal fuel tanks and all that. They won't buy F35 as the French get hysterical about that type of thing, and Rafale is the lowest capable option IMHO for Germany's requirements. If Germany wanted Rafale then they would have stayed with the French 20 years ago!

a reply to: paraphi

The German military in general is in terrible condition. They have 93 Tornados in service, with 66 operational, and 29 combat ready. A 400 hour inspection for the Typhoon was scheduled to take 7 months, and was completed in 14 months. Of 128 Typhoons, at one point 10 did NOT have a major issue with the cooling system for their defensive system, meaning they were the only aircraft fully combat ready.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Uhm, you do know what goes on with the #show otherwise know as Bundeswehr? On the political side?

Nobody in Germany gives a damn about *the condition of their current equipment*. This all bad politics. The only reason the nuclear capability is even relevant is because the politicans want to sit at the big boys table within Nato. Without a nuclear capability they'd be kicked off the Nuclear Planning Group and they cant have that because the US cant be trusted to not blow us all up or something.

They'd be perfectly fine with retaining the Tornados for another two decades if they can get away with it. The less money spent on nuclear stuff the better and so forth.
In fact the SPD basically said they are willing to ditch nuclear sharing if that means they dont have to buy evil warplanes.
In fact, spending anything on defense is Evil and increasing such spending is very, very dangerous because it will lead to an arms race which will bring us another war yadda yadda
Nobody in Berlin cares about the military side in all of this. Nobody.

The Tiffs are limited to 1500 hrs due to a structural problem in the aft fuselage. Unless they do indeed decide they don't need aircraft, they might almost be better dropping both Tiff and tornados for Rafale (which is already certified for ASMP).

But they're going to need all the DM's for social programs the way they're going.

Tonkas are old and complex,parts wear out and noone makes parts for them any more.First flight was 1974 for the prototype.Swing wings are sooooo 1980,s anyway :-P

France and Germany announce first contract worth €65 million for the next generation combat jet.

France and Germany will on Wednesday announce a 65 million euro ($74 million) contract financed equally by both countries over two years as the first act of the joint programme to design a next-generation combat jet, a French army source and two other sources familiar with the matter said.

France and Germany to launch first contracts on future combat jets

To add to my post above.

The contenders in the German competition, having been forced by the French to de-select F35, is Typhoon and F18. Given French / Airbus hostility to the F35, it's only a matter of time before F18 (another pesky American offering) will be dropped. This leaves Typhoon. Rafale ain't in the mix.

a reply to: paraphi

Airbus will raise hell over Boeing even without the French.

I'm pretty sure the US won't certify the Eurofighter for the nuclear mission.

Since political trumps all here, they ought to buy the Eurofighter and do a sole source for the Rafale for the nuclear mission.

Yes, yes, the Rafale is not in the running, but given the actions to date, I'm hedging it might end up back in just for the nuclear mission.

originally posted by: anzha
Yes, yes, the Rafale is not in the running, but given the actions to date, I'm hedging it might end up back in just for the nuclear mission.

Will the US allow American nukes to be integrated and carried on French planes? I don't think it's that easy. More likely is that the US-German nuclear sharing agreement will fold, doubtlessly to the glee of the French.

a reply to: paraphi
And doubtlessly in glee for Russia, who probably were hiding in the shadows all along.

Without inflaming regional tensions I have to point out:

This is why many in the US think that the EU and its member nations are not really serious about their own defense and thats why trumps repeated calls to force NATO members to pay more resonates.........

I have no problem with Germany buying the Typhoon. The F-18 has zero chance any more than Airbus had a real shot at the AF-1 contract. But the reality is that they cannot keep the ones they have flying let alone adding to the fleet.

I suspect that the Germans will walk away from their nuclear responsibility to NATO and dump it back into the US's hands

I've just read about another interesting proposal.

They could scrap half of the Tornadoes for spares, to keep the other half flying longer. Those remaining Tornadoes would be used as nuclear weapons carriers only. They'd buy a bunch additional EFs to take over the recon role.

This would be probably the cheapest option, if it works.

Germany are just after spending the money to keep jobs in France and Germany, as well as increasing the on-paper spend on defence to allay continued just criticism of their failure to invest in their own defence. I predict that in five years - if Brexit happens - the French and Germans will be well along the lines of EU defence integration. In Germany's roadmap, they just want to buy-to-hold.

Not sure this is in the correct thread, but Tornado retirement has been discussed here. For anyone who is interested, here is a link for the Tornado final flypast dates in UK. The days and bases they are flying over are listed, but no specific times yet, due to weather and availability. Hopefully times may be released nearer to the dates.

www.itv.com...

originally posted by: FredT
I suspect that the Germans will walk away from their nuclear responsibility to NATO and dump it back into the US's hands

Cant agree more.

Just like a good far left government (see European apologist) they are willing to spout about their ideology but unwilling to accept why they are able to spout it without being put in the gulags.

What "Europe" considers is that it is so valuable to the US that the US will have to protect them. It would be awesome if NATO kicked out those that dont contribute the required amount. Once Russia move on a former apologist country and France and Germany cry for help I will supply the massive hand that slaps them in the face.

The EU direction is a danger to the world.

a reply to: Forensick
Couldn't agree more, it seems history is sadly repeating itself. Its not the best end but maybe Brexit isn't such a bad thing for the UK after all? I really hope Trump calls Germany's bluff on the nuclear mission, something tells me not every other country in the EU is happy with France and Germany and their political posturings.

The German media (sueddeutsche) is reporting that it would take between three and five years longer to certify the Eurofighter to carry the B-61 than it will take for the F-18.
This would take too long since Germany wants to start replacing the Tornados by 2025 and a decision won't be made before early next year.

Also, nothing has changed on the polticial front, IE the SPD is still against buying an american nuclear capable strike aicraft because nuclear weapons are evil and Orange Man bad.

There is some - albeit limited at this stage - thinking in Germany and France that a full on 6th generation fighter bomber is doable provided there can be a financial commitment provided from potential buyers - Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, India, Japan, South Korea and a few others have been mentioned - can be locked in to some financial commitment. The reasoning is that a US 6th generation platform would end up being restricted from export just like the high end 5th gen F-22, that Russia is just too iffy for political and technical support reasons...and that leaves an opening for Europe, but really no one wants to spend the money - make that no one likely has the money alone - to do the R&D for the breakthrough tech that would be needed. Get a few partners with dollars and/or specific technical know how to spare, and the financial risk equation is a bit more sensible, there is greater economy of scale, badly needed high tech jobs (especially global service and support) and perhaps some increased EU political leverage. Early days yet, but some more starry eyed people are really wanting to take things with the Tornado/Eurofighter up a level...

originally posted by: Borys
...and that leaves an opening for Europe,

Noting that France and Germany (and Spain) are not Europe.

There is another sixth generation programme in Europe led by the UK, which is supported by Sweden and Italy. The UK is probably better placed to attract interest from outside Europe because of their (apparently) more open collaboration model.

a reply to: paraphi

Still not sure if having the UK led program is overall a better idea than combining it all into one Western European attempt. Maybe two competing ideas will result in differences which are more suitable to more buyers, and both programmes succeed...or maybe there is only the ability to properly scale and achieve cost savings if there is one programme.

Early days still, but will be interesting to see how people interpret the definition of 6th gen.