Universe 25 and The Beautiful Sink

originally posted by: Dr UAE
a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

well this appears to me like the perfect textbook for those who made the decision and implemented the mass migration to Europe, exactly what they wanted

Once you see how it works it is kind of frightening. Get the migrants into a confined space with no societal roles creates the conditions for "death of soul" that when that happens leads to physical death. A completely cynical treatment of a population. It is genocide.

How many attacks have there been?

On the flip side, mice are not humans.

Ultimately, “[r]ats may suffer from crowding; human beings can cope," Ramdsen says. "Calhoun’s research was seen not only as questionable, but also as dangerous.” Another researcher, Jonathan Freedman, turned to studying actual people — they were just high school and university students, but definitely human. His work suggested a different interpretation. Moral decay could arise “not from density, but from excessive social interaction,” Ramsden says. “Not all of Calhoun’s rats had gone berserk. Those who managed to control space led relatively normal lives.”

Now, interpretations of Calhoun’s work has changed. [Esther] Inglis-Arkell explains that the habitats he created weren’t really overcrowded, but that isolation enabled aggressive mice to stake out territory and isolate the beautiful ones. She writes, "Instead of a population problem, one could argue that Universe 25 had a fair distribution problem."

The few secluded spaces housed a population Calhoun called, "the beautiful ones." Generally guarded by one male, the females—and few males—inside the space didn't breed or fight or do anything but eat and groom and sleep. When the population started declining the beautiful ones were spared from violence and death, but had completely lost touch with social behaviors, including having sex or caring for their young.

--Esther Inglis-Arkell

Smithsonian.com - How 1960s Mouse Utopias Led to Grim Predictions for Future of Humanity.

Reminds me of Leary's "imprinting" of brain circuits. The mice did not imprint on social norms. Without those norms they did the only thing that was working: eat, sleep, and groom.

That makes more sense than that snide comment of the Beautiful Ones being "too stupid to have sex," from that documentary.

Makes one wonder how much behaviors actually are those mammalian instincts.

Since we are circling the drain in the Beautiful Sink why not come round full circle?

The Japanese Ministry of Health, Labour, and Welfare defines hikikomori as a condition in which the affected individuals isolate themselves from society in their homes for a period exceeding six months. The psychiatrist Dr. Tamaki Saitō defines hikikomori as "a state that has become a problem by the late twenties, that involves cooping oneself up in one's own home and not participating in society for six months or longer, but that does not seem to have another psychological problem as its principal source."

More recently, researchers have developed more specific criteria to more accurately identify hikikomori. During a diagnostic interview, trained clinicians evaluate for:

1. spending most of the day and nearly every day confined to home,
2. marked and persistent avoidance of social situations,
3. social withdrawal symptoms causing significant functional impairment,
4. duration of at least six months, and
5. no apparent physical etiology to account for the social withdrawal symptoms.

Though acute social withdrawal in Japan appears to affect both genders equally, because of differing social expectations for maturing boys and girls, the most widely reported cases of hikikomori are from middle- and upper-middle-class families whose sons, typically their eldest, refuse to leave the home, often after experiencing one or more traumatic episodes of social or academic failure.

Wikipedia: Hikikomori.

Here is a modern example of aberrant societal behavior being exhibited by individuals in a large, crowded, population. With an increasing sense of "nowhere to go" the hikikomori stop trying altogether and withdraw from society.

There are similar behaviors here in America and world wide. This is a social problem but seen as an individual's problem and is seen as such. The Wikipedia entry uses terms like "Asperger syndrome" and "autism spectral disorder" because they don't know what to call it!

With failure not an option, facing failure in society means an "aversion to that which causes pain," or, hikikomori. It is a survival technique. Reports are there are 500,000 hikikomori in Japan.

Very similar to social avoidance and isolation in Universe 25.

Even Dr. Calhoun's NIH has noticed this phenomena.

The majority of such cases of hikikomori are classifiable as a variety of existing DSM-IV-TR (or ICD-10) psychiatric disorders. However, a notable subset of cases with substantial psychopathology do not meet criteria for any existing psychiatric disorder. We suggest hikikomori may be considered a culture-bound syndrome and merits further international research into whether it meets accepted criteria as a new psychiatric disorder.

NIH.gov - Hikikomori, A Japanese Culture-Bound Syndrome of Social Withdrawal? A Proposal for DSM-V.

DSM-IV, now DSM-V, are the catalogs for taxonomical fitting of human behavior from addiction to developmental disorders. Remember when caffeine was label "addictive" back around 2013? It was because they added the effects to the DSM catalog! That is what is being done with hikikomori, they want to add it too to the DSM catalog but as a cultural thing. No! It is a societal thing that has cultural parts!

Taking this to the 8 Circuit model of Dr. Leary. The hikikomori, have not completely imprinted their 4th circuit. Notice that Circuit 4 also involves sex?

If you are not leaving your room for over 6 months at a time that is a pretty good sign of not getting any!

All kidding aside, this behavior of isolation from society and sex has been seen before: Universe 25.

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Just found this, thanks to your subtle hints...
Love it.

a reply to: Peeple

There is a lot of reading to do. But it is worthwhile. I find the study fascinating in some ways. There is also the whole Rockefeller tie-in that I haven't even mentioned yet.

Sorry for all the reading.

A behavioral sink is one thing... but this is just so f# sad.

A Canadian aboriginal community has declared a state of emergency following the suicide of three teenage girls.

Chief Brennan Sainnawap of the remote Wapekeka First Nation in northern Ontario made the declaration this week.

On 13 June, Jenera Roundsky, 12, became the latest child to die as part of a suicide pact.

In January, two other 12-year-old girls committed suicide. The community says almost 40 youths are considered to be at risk in a town of about 400 people.

It is the latest suicide crisis to hit a Canadian aboriginal community. Last year, Attawapiskat First Nation in Ontario declared a state of emergency after 11 people attempted to take their own lives in a single day.

BBC.com, news, June 23, 2017 - Ontario First Nation declares state of emergency over suicide.



This is not over population. This is not "goths" or "bullying" in some form.

This is a "first death" among a conquered people, First Nation aboriginals.

With no societal roles, with no hope of a future, with no escape, life loses meaning. The natural impulse is to fight for life; that struggle to stay alive--not embrace it. This is a group defining a societal role for themselves with one commandment: suicide pact. To fulfill your obligations of that newly defined role and "belong," you follow through with your promise. That is what they have imprinted on and no counseling is going to fix this--you can not go to group and talk your way out.

We as a society cannot ignore this and hope it goes away or fixes itself.

For immediate help:

From Canada or US: If you're in an emergency, please call 911. If you or someone you know is suffering with mental-health issues, call Kids Help Phone at 1-800-668-6868. If you're in the US, you can text HOME to 741741

For Health Canada's First Nations and Inuit Hope for Wellness Helpline, call 1-855-242-3310

From UK: Call Samaritans on 116123 or Childline on 0800 1111

Source: same

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Dude really? Issue 42 says that?


*"all hail great grandmaster Adams speaking to us from the land of death" ...bows

a reply to: Peeple

It is his formula published in that issue. How valid it is is not my authority.

That is the reason for the thread!

Let's argue the point!

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Alright, I stated my point in the Cafe

a reply to: Anaana

Not to forget, we got more complex communication going on than mice, more complex thinking. I believe the fact that we can say very precise "where the honey is" we have a huge advantage.
Also many find it benefitting to live from less, what we do lack as TEOT said, is a meaning.
I've been told to ask for meaning is pathologically depressive thinking.
But that's exactly the root of the Neurasthenia, we got time to think about the meaning of life.
The Japanese thing too, all because we got no meaning and are horrible in a bigger picture.

The religious bit doesn't work anymore, we got to complicated to swallow "this world is horrible you'll have it better after death, but don't kill yourself or your "father figure" will be mad."
But we're at a point where we know enough to look at the abstract and we find we are part of a machine in the system of life, where we kill and destroy everything. Bizarre to identify with for all the sensitive softies at heart.
What we need to find is a meaning with actual evidence for each step of this hypothetical reason to participate in human society.

One of those things we keep overlooking for over a hundred years.
It's synchronicity all of this "consciousness streaming" and we shouldn't stop looking towards these "freak coincidences" just because we are scared to find "god".
God obviously doesn't exist, but something is hiding behind these "race poles".
There is more to the human existence, we do have a purpose. We just are too afraid to look closer.

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
With failure not an option, facing failure in society means an "aversion to that which causes pain," or, hikikomori. It is a survival technique. Reports are there are 500,000 hikikomori in Japan.

Very similar to social avoidance and isolation in Universe 25.

I disgree (quite strongly in fact), there is far too much being projected onto these rodents. Do the rodents live with their parent's into adulthood? Do the rodents exhibit any similar forms of co-dependency to that of one adult caring and providing for another adult capable of doing that for themselves? It is not "very similar", it is comparable, but only loosely.

It is "normal" for adult children to remain living with their parents in all sorts of human societies, however neither that nor co-dependency, over-investing in our off-spring, wrapping them in cotton-wool and shielding them from experience to the extent that they are unable to develop the skills to navigate the "outside" is not something that is adequately reflected in rodent populations.

I don't know, I have a bit more to read but it's purpose I think that is lacking more than meaning.

Didn't the Japanese regularly practice ritual suicide in the face of failure? Culturally, there are much deeper things at work than rodent studies can possibly explain, but the whole basis of Calhoun's studies was the provision of basic needs, food and water, without competition. In Maslow's heirarchy of needs, shelter is next I believe, then sex/reproduction, right? The hikikomori's relationship to their parents is much like the rodents relationship to Calhoun I would suppose, if you think about it.

I think a less literal application may be required.

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
We as a society cannot ignore this and hope it goes away or fixes itself.

Here we agree.

I got an email from school a few weeks ago, a warning, about a new "craze" or "game" where the child is contacted on line and sort of groomed into following a set of 50 dares culminating in suicide. Totally #ed up. We were told to be on the look-out for the really obvious signs, such as self-harming. Kids who are in that much need of attention though, no one is looking out for them or they wouldn't be looking on the internet for belonging, or be susceptible to that kind of grooming. It's the same reason young men are drawn towards the action offered by extremism, particularly those born to immigrant parents from differing cultures. They don't feel that they belong at home or outside of it, so they seek belonging elsewhere, that sense of alienation from the culture of your parents can be paralleled with first nation peoples confined to reservation. So, moving away from it being purpose rather than meaning that is lacking, it is most likely both those two, but with humans, I think group identity and belonging are much more significant and I don't think that that can be adequately reflected by rodents. Not that I can currently think of at least. Maybe I'll sleep on it and have an epiphany.

I don't think integration and adaptation happen overnight, but I do think there are "tools" that we have developed over generations that can aid in the process that aren't really appreciated for what they are, they're underlying purpose.

I was watching Lorde's set at Glastonbury. That young lady certainly knows how to command an audience, but that aside, have you ever been amongst a mass of people like that, not in a stadium, in a field? Or even, really, on a smaller scale, enclosed, in a smallish club, packed to the walls with a heaving mass of bodies bouncing together as one to the beat? Just watching Lorde, as old and decrepid as I am these days, I felt how good it was to be alive amongst that ocean of people.

Opportunity, having just thought about that, live music, to have experiences, having the ability to have memorable experience is something that many people don't possess. If meaning has to be created how do we create it? What access to opportunity is required to make such meaning-giving experiences accessible? With the rich, where opportunity is abundant, does to over accessibility, or lack of challenge, make such experiences moribund and meaningless?

Many questions, no answers.

a reply to: Anaana

Thanks! And that's f#ed up!

What kind of scumbag would do that?!

The young have not had the chance to see the overall view of life. That is the "imprinting" on society that I'm talking about. Bypassing that to death... inexcusable.

The other part (behavior of mice and humans) is totally debatable. I find that the similarities can not be denied. It is not a one to one correspondence but just similar. We are both mammals after all. And I'm being "functional" with what tools I have at hand.

This new trend you have to look for and what is happening in Canada breaks my heart. We as a whole should be better than this!

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

I agree, there are similarities. The studies can inform our observations of human behaviour and help us to understand how overcrowding, socio-economic displacement and geographic displacement impacts humans biologically BUT with the caveat that the rodents are enclosed in a totally human imposed reality. They have not chosen to live like that and cannot escape. The comparison with children therefore I think is entirely valid and perhaps explains why some people choose to remain children to the adults that forced this reality upon them by bringing them into this world. It can also help to inform us as to why some children choose suicide as the only means of escape that they see available to them. In that I can also see how Calhoun's studies can be applied to help us to understand why some children act out violently towards their peers or who similarly are led into extremism with the promise of it giving them the purpose and sense of identity that leads to a feeling that life has meaning.

What I perhaps don't agree with is that this is a new trend and when comparing other mammals to humans I believe it is important to comprehend that we, unlike the rodents, have evolved a strong desire/need/mechanism to care for those who we consider weaker than us and we take responsibility for others as being part of what it is to be human. This factor in our social development is a root cause of a great deal of conflict both personally and collectively for us as a species and it is why we experience such huge scale huddling which leads to overcrowding.

Now, why I brought up Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, despite feeling it is outdated in terms of humans to some extent, largely due to the fact that humans, much like Bonobo's will trade sex for basic needs such as food and shelter, as well as for socio-economic status (does that behaviour appear in Universe 25?), is due to the containment, the shelter is somewhat hostile due to it being imposed. If the Beautiful One leaves it's valued spot to partake in the social intercourse required to reproduce, does it lose it? Even so, biologically or Maslow speaking, unless food, water and security of shelter are achieved the biological impulse to reproduce doesn't kick in, they do not have the instinctive drive, or it is displaced into grooming. This does though, help to inform us about behaviours in contained, from the outside, environments, such as prisons and the first nations, which I would presume (though I don't like to) have internal law and lore, which can be contradictory with those on the outside, as well as an overall dependency on the outside to provide or supply basic needs.

You see, I really do appreciate how Calhoun's studies help to inform our own behaviour but you gotta apply it not just hold your hands up aghast at the similarities. Of course it is similar, the rodents are being made to behave like us, but we choose to huddle and we choose to care. That is both what is right with us and wrong with us, or it's just what being human is all about. The rodents care only about themselves because that is biologically what they are predisposed to do, we are not, for whatever reason, we are predisposed to care, hence why we do. In terms of maladaption or adaption, more sensitive humans will be overwhelmed and burdened by their biology, particularly given the incredible inequality and injustice that exists in the world, autistic spectrum children, for example, could be a manifestation of limiting sensory stimulation to filter out damaging amounts of caring. I am not sure...what I mean though is, in terms of Universe 25, the similarities are interesting, the differences though are just as fascinating, and I think somewhere in between, comparing and contrasting, is where the solutions may lie.

Now, about the Rockefeller funding? I'll let you lead.

a reply to: Anaana

... I would like to weigh in:

About Rockefeller, shouldn't we praise him to be one of the few who still care about the very social attitude in captilasm of trickle down the money, keeping the cash flow and all?

In my world it's those which don't spend, who are the problem.
Mandela?

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Mice also do not have the ability to change their environment , humans do
we can create and destroy , but have a curious nature to lean towards creation

art can save us when we are drifting , it helps us reaffirm our connection to the one

whilst the study is an indication to what could happen , it doesnt take into consideration humanitys ability to adapt and change
if anything you want to study humanities ability to go on as human then look at war vets , they see the most horrific scenes of violence and destruction and if you can come back from that then we have hope !

a reply to: Anaana

Bonobo's will trade sex for basic needs such as food and shelter, as well as for socio-economic status (does that behaviour appear in Universe 25?)

Nope. Everything was taken care of. There were enough space for a population of 5,500 mice. They didn't even make the halfway point. There was no need to barter. They were going along fine then it became dysfunctional which caused stress and the whole thing was one big negative feed-back loop. There were mice that grouped up (one male, several females) but they fared no better than the other mice at conceiving litters. The Beautiful Ones appeared at the very end. They chose not to socially bind with other mice and became not really mice anymore. Many of them were female if that makes any difference!

Human behavior is more complex. Agreed. It is open ended and self-reflexive. And we can, and do, artificial insemination so we've got options.

I find the "society" aspect the most intriguing. How that collapsed and never really returned. The Beautiful Ones are like Nero playing the fiddle while Rome was burning down. The "first-death", the death of soul, is a wonderful notion to ponder. The individual vs. the society as a whole, they are not actually separate. How the mores break down and the dysfunction begins seems like such a short tipping point.

Comparing the strange behaviors of humans using Calhoun's terms is just one method of examining what is being observed. Maslow works too. You could go socio-economic or any of the different schools of thoughts. It just seemed like here was a situation where individuals and society can be viewed. Plus it is doom pornish in its own way.

Thanks for kicking this idea around with me!

Hikikomori are not the result of a mental disorder, they are "children" of sociology, first of all. Due to population density and life expectancy all social roles already busy, people don't have sufficient motivation to work (because your work will not bring any benefit, it will be work for work's sake), thus it is impossible to self-determination. They don’t see any point to spent their time and power to achieve the requirements of modern society. The person ceases to see the meaning of her presence in the circle of society.

steemit.com, psychology (@natord) - A Comparison of Our Society with the "Mouse Paradise" (my vision).

The entire entry is worth a read if you have the time. The first half is a description of Universe 25 and the experiment's outcome.

The second half is an eye towards modern population. An argument that with people living longer lives there are no free or open societal positions for young to grow into. Faced with the "produce!" commandment, having suffered a failure or two, the thought of what that means makes their self-worth fall. They shun society when they are supposed to be entering into it. The parents are upper- or middle- class so they do not need to work so they shut-off from social interaction. Hikikomori.

Self-determination is the main term I'm taking away. The individual and the population. How is that negotiated when confrontation arises? Isolation and avoidance. It is a very animal behavior.

a reply to: sapien82

Hi!

I'm not trying to "prove" anything. I'm just looking at society and using an extreme example and those results to try to keep us from getting that bad! The results provide a glimpse at what could happen. It also gives us language and a starting point. Society and behavior models get complicated real fast when applied to humans. Universe 25 is more simplistic. It may even be weirder if that is possible! Ample food and still there was cannibalism.

Remember that guy in Florida eating that dudes face? Was it drugs, or, maybe the stress of society manifesting itself? Since we all know the term now, is that an example of a behavioral sink?

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Anaana

... I would like to weigh in:

About Rockefeller, shouldn't we praise him to be one of the few who still care about the very social attitude in captilasm of trickle down the money, keeping the cash flow and all?

In my world it's those which don't spend, who are the problem.
Mandela?

Mine too but it is how they spend that I have issue with because that is, effectively, the process by which wealth is redistributed. Consider the Quakers, for a time there, they really, really made a difference, creating businesses that were generous and benevolent employers who build villages for their workers to live in, complete with parks and open spaces. They transformed mental health care and were instrumental in the Abolition of Slavery. Those that realise that with wealth and success comes responsibility, those that believe success is measured by how many you raise up along with you, and those who won't compromise their integrity in order to succeed at someone else's expense, humanity would be hard pressed to have made any progress without them. Social engineering can be used for the betterment of others, absolutely.

More contemporary examples, Matt Damon and his water initiative, and Akon with Solar power. Awesome. And I have personally benefitted from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation by being employed on a £10 Million project that they funded. Lots of positives that can be expounded of success being used to create employment for others doing meaningful and world changing work.

The question therefore, for me, is someone using their money to help others, or are they using it to help themselves or indeed, to shape the world in their own image? There is responding to need, and then there is ensuring barriers exist between you and that need to preserve your way of life because your success is not based on success but on inheritance, and those that you inherited from had everything but integrity and their success and wealth came at the great expense of others.

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Just beautiful. Finally a word for what's happening. We're loosing the young, hikikomori, now we got a word for it.
Like social suicide. I guess it often goes with a narcissistic predisposition?
Since the pendulum swings & nothing is static in human minds? I bet the "source hormones" are responsible for "sets of extremes" we only see those as pathological, so it should be possible to say like in narcissists and "helpers"(?) show the same raise of stimuli here and there and there has to be something a "vehicle" to cause it?
Maybe not?

Also I have to read deeper into the beautiful ones...

a reply to: Anaana

I totally agree, our society values results, not intentions.
The most awful opportunistic selfish one gets the prize. Our social reality we have to "adjust" to. Ratrace anyone?

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
I find the "society" aspect the most intriguing. How that collapsed and never really returned. The Beautiful Ones are like Nero playing the fiddle while Rome was burning down.

Much in the way of Matricide in Universe 25? Did you know that Nero had the Delphic Oracle buried alive?

Inherited power is seldom conducive to the good management of the state.

Incidently, the Black Rat didn't arrive in Britain until the Romans did. The Brown Rat was a much later immigrant, around the 1800s I believe. Perhaps by living beside Rats and their dependency on our being such filthy, wasteful animals, and with the urbanity that the Romans brought with them, we have become enough like them for them to be able to inform us of where we're going wrong. But under more "natural" conditions. We may "feel" like captives due to the limits imposed upon us socio-economically, but that is not the same as being forced to stay in a more literal sense.

It's not just about artifical insemination, we have, by caring for the sick, developing medicines etc etc, defied the natural laws of selection, we have overridden, time and time again, our natural impulses of survival for the good of the group and not just the individual. That has consequences. Overcrowding being just one of them. Rats are not going to teach us anything we need to know about facing up and taking responsibility for those consequences. They do help us diagnose some of the social drawbacks of overcrowding, such as excessive competition for a limited number of social roles, and how that can lead to a failure to thrive. Perhaps we can add feeling valued to purpose, identity as being equal to life having meaning.

If an adult child fails to provide for itself, compared to a rodent, which would die as a consequence (if not for Calhoun, god-like, dispensing abundance) in it's natural environment. The parent having fulfilled it's biological imperative, loses interest, moves on and shells another batch. Humans have a vastly different parenting remit, we make a long term bond. Infanticide while practiced by humans when resources were scarce, would not be considered if there weren't old people first who could give up their share. We are economists by nature.

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
The "first-death", the death of soul, is a wonderful notion to ponder. The individual vs. the society as a whole, they are not actually separate. How the mores break down and the dysfunction begins seems like such a short tipping point.

Why do you think laws exist and were created? It's not because people get along and live together in perfect harmony and always do the right thing. Human societies reward behaviour that is good for the group and punish behaviour that is bad for the group. That is why adultery in most Ancient peoples was punished by death of both parties. Divorce was easy. Deceit and treachery destroy social cohesion. Putting together small societies with differing laws and lores, requires new lore and law, that breaks down when the narrative is challenged by the economic isolation of rulers from their people or by outside invaders. When the central administration of a society has collapsed in the past, the general population has either dispersed and formed new, smaller groups, or simply accepted the invaders. Societal collapse does not necessarily suspend population growth as much as it facilitates spreading out and a regeneration from the detrimental effects of centralised mono-culture. The tipping point is never short, but the rot really sets in when power is inherited as opposed to earned. I can see comparisons, in some respects, with Universe 25.

originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
Comparing the strange behaviors of humans using Calhoun's terms is just one method of examining what is being observed. Maslow works too. You could go socio-economic or any of the different schools of thoughts. It just seemed like here was a situation where individuals and society can be viewed. Plus it is doom pornish in its own way.

Thanks for kicking this idea around with me!

My pleasure.

I don't find it all that doom-pornish. Adults living with their parents can earn their keep. Mow the lawns, care for their aging parents. It's a good thing I think for those who want to, or don't want to face any other alternative. I don't think that there should be any shame in being with your family. I thought that that was what they were for. If the family are affluent enough, have a large house, it is hardly overcrowding or in anyway dysfunctional. If however it is as a consequence of being poorly socialised, or inadequately prepared for the "outside" world, coupled with an unwillingness to "produce" then it is more a failure to thrive, and the parenting failed to equip. An over inflated sense of entitlement seems to be as much of a learned behaviour as any other. That, and the do as I say, not as I do mentality that seems to manifest itself to greater degrees the further "up" the socio-economic you go.

Funny how we call a nefarious or devious person a rat. Funny peculiar, not haha.

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

the guy was taking bath salts and his baseline consciousness was altered completely so there would be no real way to know for sure if it was a result of the drugs or sinkhole

it is a really interesting study , and should give indicators to us that we are on a slippery slope