Universe 25 and The Beautiful Sink

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Don't see our collective populations being allowed to reach much higher than they already are.

Fact is we cannot support the numbers we currently have, in the life style they have become accustomed to now. Nor can we offer the appropriate medical or financial support required for our citizens to survive or flourish while we follow the current system and same paradigm that we have for the last 100,000 years.

If analogy is part of deduction, then you would think we may deduce by now, that without significant change to the way that we live, consume resources, and generally treat one another and the planet in general, Humanity in it's present condition days are numbered.

Problem is that there are far to many have not's and far to few haves. Distribution of wealth and power being the definitive conundrum that we refuse to address in any meaningful manner.

The thoughts are ridiculous in their reductionism.

The variables relevant to mice are different from those relevant to humans. Humans can learn to change themselves, whereas mice are doing nothing more than following simple rules.

Notice how many people want to change? Blaming over-population, or thinking the behavior of elite has anything to do with the large numbers of human beings alive, is delusional.

Who has been driving this growth but the capitalists-in-charge? They need lots of people to make their products - and the poorer they are, the more money/power they can hold for themselves. To turn around and claim that human population growth has anything to do with destruction of our planet is to basically ignore and not-interface with the simple fact that corporations/governments made up of specific sorts of people have chosen this direction for us.

Now imagine a different sort of system governed by a different sort of philosophy, and the issue of "overpopulation" ceases to exist. Overpopulation is a strange focus - as if a problem must be imagined to exist before a solution one wants to enact can be justified.

Just some thoughts

It's like we have ripped ourselves from nature and now we are suffering a withdrawal symptoms all of the societal wrongs are a by product of this ? maybe I'll continue to read the source materials for better understanding

I had a similar conversation this week at work.

I work as a private gardener for quite a few people who live/second home in The New Forest (S.England, UK) and one of my clients had a friend staying over to do some work for him. This chap came out and started talking to me, he asked me if i lived close by and i said reasonably, he then asked where the nearest shop was and i gave him directions via landmarks and road junctions telling him it was about an hour or so's walk or 5 mins by car. I then thought to tell him this was just a little local shop and if he wanted a supermarket I could direct him there. He then asked how anybody can live 'out here' and that yesterday when he had first arrived he and his son (early 20's i would guess) had both felt 'strange and uncomfortable'.

I responded with something like "wow that's a pretty sad reflection of our society isn't it?, I mean here you are out in what is our natural environment, surrounded by all types of life and you feel uncomfortable and strange! "

I did say it with a smile and said it's probably how i feel when i go to London (where he and client live) and i did see him register 'the idea' but then i kind of changed the subject as felt I might have touched a nerve/offended him in some way as i did just blurt out my reply

Was the 'rip from nature' that made it pop back into my mind.

On another point:
I think the west in general has already seen falling birth rates which is one of the reasons most western governments have been allowing in immigrants who tend to have higher birthrates.

Too many people in the same place lead to overpopulation and this has been encouraged since the industrial revolution leading to the proliferation of cities and the newer mega cities that are appearing more and more.
This in turn further concentrates resources in the hands of a few at the expense of the many who turn on each other mainly in frustration effectively running their own experiment with us the general population.

The easy solution to our overpopulation problems would be to let/encourage people to live more rurally again and become more self sufficient again rather than relying on government assistance but those who own the land are unlikely to let that happen any time soon.

P.S. The New Forest is a beautiful area with ponies, cattle, donkeys and some pigs roaming free as well as a variety of deer and the other more elusive mammals. Oh just this year I have noticed the return of both Red and Black Kites too to compete with the more common buzzards. I love the view from 'my office' at some of the more rural properties.

originally posted by: johnb
Just some thoughts
...
The easy solution to our overpopulation problems would be to let/encourage people to live more rurally again and become more self sufficient again rather than relying on government assistance ...

Pretty clear thinking, Sir.

a reply to: andy06shake

Yes, there seems a major "something" happening on the near horizon.

a reply to: Astrocyte

It was a false limitation on space and how it was distributed (the furthest "apartments" had one entrance that was easy to guard and allowed a segregation of older mice and their guards) that added to the anxiety within the habitat. From that dysfunction arose the behavioral sink. It is a feedback loop from society as a whole back to individuals that is interesting. Then how the individuals responded that then fed back into society. Humans do the same thing (I know we are not mice) so it is a point of compare and contrast at a gross level overview.

Plus Universe 25 had all other needs taken care of which we sure as h3ll don't. But look at the ideas being floated around of "universal income" (look, they even use the same term, "universe"!) and having enough to actually live on. Coincidence? Probably but also causes me some hesitation.

a reply to: johnb
a reply to: Snarl

Country mouse and city mouse!!

As stated above, that is the difference in a group dynamic (society) feeding back to the individual. Strange that it was an actual "feeling" like what hippies would call a "vibe". It is like walking into a room and all conversation stopping--like, "What the h3ll did I do?!"

The open skies is one solution. So is outer space (which I've been saying now since the 80's).



Thank you all for the well thought out replies! This was the conversation I envisioned at the start of the thread!

Working in mice, we identified a dorsomedial prefrontal cortex (dmPFC) neural population showing “effort”-related firing during moment-to-moment competition in the dominance tube test. Activation or inhibition of the dmPFC induces instant winning or losing, respectively. In vivo optogenetic-based long-term potentiation and depression experiments establish that the mediodorsal thalamic input to the dmPFC mediates long-lasting changes in the social dominance status that are affected by history of winning.

nextbigfuture.com - Judge Dredd Mean Machine Implant Created for Persistent Aggression.

There I was reading about quantum propulsion and right above is a this awfully named article. What the hey?...

The "dominance tube test" is placing mice in a tube that does not allow them to pass without making contact of some kind. They then either stimulated (aggressive) or inhibited (submissive) an area in the mouse's brain. They created aggressive "alpha" males and timid mouse too. One would push through and win the test and the other did not fair so well.

After reading about the mice of U25 this was a little more of interest! There is a level of social interaction that I did not know about. As the brain area is affected the behavior is learned. Aggressive mice learn to be aggressive and timid mouse becomes more so. If the population is dense and there is no clear winner or loser in day-to-day living space with a big population... well no wonder the population in U25 was a nervous wreck!

The "losers" ended ganging up in the center and attacking others that passed by, randomly, and/or each other. The entire population tried coping as best they could. Some avoided confrontation and slunk around when the other slept. Others isolated themselves and pursued individual pursuits. This caused problems of being a "normal" population and reproduction: the behavioral sink conditions were laid.

Now the question is could stimulation of dmPFC change The Beautiful Ones back to normal mice?

I think it would be more of a "generation lost" at that point. But like other aspects of Universe 25 it makes one wonder.

This was interesting too!

sciencedaily.com - Individualistic practices and values increasing around the world.

There have been a bunch of stories about "Americans having less sex" that has been popping up since March of this year too.

And a story about being "addicted" to a fatty diet and going withdrawal symptoms when that diet was taken away.

I guess what I am trying to say is, "Eat healthy, have safe sex, and society is not that bad"!!

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Sorry for the lack of content, just wanted to say:

Super interesting, keep going

a reply to: Peeple

The new reboot of The Secret Of NIMH is inching ever closer. The film has now found its director with James Madigan, and is finally moving forward under the title The Rats Of NIMH.

The movie is based on the successful Newbery Medal-winning series by author Robert C. O’Brien. The story follows a widowed field mouse with a gravely ill son. When their home is threatened by the coming of the plowing season, she sets out to find help and meets a society of hyper-intelligent rats, who are the result of experiments conducted at a nearby science lab.

geekexchange.com - The Secret Of NIMH Reboot Finds Director And Changes Title.

A reboot?! That is interesting.

Now you know what NIHM stands for! The National institute of Mental Health where Dr. Calhoun worked. And now we all know about Universe 25 the cartoon will not be so childish anymore.

I did not know that both Shannen Doherty and Wil Wheaton were in the 1982 cartoon! That is a great trivia question!

And look! it has "ats" in the title!

Unwanted social contact occurred with increasing frequency, leading to increased stress and aggression. Following the work of the physiologist, Hans Selye, it seemed that the adrenal system offered the standard binary solution: fight or flight. But in the sealed enclosure, flight was impossible. Violence quickly spiralled out of control. Cannibalism and infanticide followed. Males became hypersexual, pansexual and, an increasing proportion, homosexual. Calhoun called this vortex "a behavioural sink". Their numbers fell into terminal decline and the population tailed off to extinction. At the experiments' end, the only animals still alive had survived at an immense psychological cost: asexual and utterly withdrawn, they clustered in a vacant huddled mass. Even when reintroduced to normal rodent communities, these "socially autistic" animals remained isolated until death. In the words of one of Calhoun's collaborators, rodent "utopia" had descended into "hell".

gizmodo.com - Secret of NIMH Was Inspired by Hideous Lab Experiments.

That is a better explanation of what the population faced. There was nowhere to run so the constant social interaction keep them pegged out in 'fight' mode. They could not function which caused further dysfunction in breeding.

This is the only source I have read that actually mentions the surviving mice. Even after coming out of "hell" they died alone. They really did a number on themselves so the comment, "not nice" makes a little more sense. They never got their groove back.

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

I'm getting rats now. It's partially your fault. I will spoil them they will live a life of luxury and will work as stunt girls....

a reply to: Peeple

A spinster mouse and her rat defenders? I think I have heard that story before somewhere...

This popped up on Quartz...

The gender differences start early. More teenage females than teenage males abstain from sex. Women also are more likely to avoid sex because of childhood sexual abuse. Pregnant women fear miscarriage or harming the fetus—and can also refuse sex because of lack of interest and fatigue.

The most common reasons for men avoiding sex are erectile dysfunction, chronic medical conditions and lack of opportunity.

Quartz.com - 1 in 5 adults aren’t having sex—and doctors aren’t doing the one thing they can to fix it.

There are a bunch of medical and emotional reason but in the end patients don't ask their doctors for medical help. Living in Alaska... I know all about the "lack of opportunity" as there are more guys than girls (it has evened out more over the years). It is also about the quality of person. If I had a dime for every time a psycho wanted sex... well, Elon Musk would be borrowing money from me!

Add to that this thread: Significant Sperm Count decline among western men.

You start to wonder, "What is going on?", and, "Is TEOT onto something?"

:whiskers:

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

You bastard. Spinster mouse? Seriously I think your mindframe is dragging....if I am an animal I'm a huge ferocious cat.
Cougar and her rat defenders.

Elon Musk has a totally obvious broken nose. I imagine it's super hard having a personality like that and being so horrendously misinterpreted by the public opinion. That guy really is a Musk. A total buffalo. And that's why I think he's incredible hot, a magnificent misunderstood beast.

Not off-topic because I imagine the quantity of thoughts humans put in other individuals is unmatched in the animal kingdom. We're animals to some extent but one that perception wise lives in a house of mirrors.
A crazy house of mirrors mostly.

I'm so messed up I just thought "I'm looking forward to observe my new room mates behaviour", sure they're not mice but I hope spending time with them will give me some more insights on how to interpretate all those behavioural studies.
I'm sure you agree that's $#%=ed up?

a reply to: Peeple

Watching their behaviors! Got to love it!

From watching the Calhoun video, they really seemed to enjoy when he would enter their enclosure. They gather around his feet, he let them climb on his arms... they seemed to like the diversion!

Ears back, head down or laying down and your rat is showing a sign of submission.

Hair standing up and arching back is a warning sign of a rat’s fear and aggression.

Marking is done by both male and female rats when they release a small amount of urine to mark their territory. This can be reduced by spaying or neutering your rat.

Running, jumping, and circling means your pet rat could be in a playful or excited mood.

A short squeak is an expression of surprise or hurt. A long high-pitched squeak usually means your rat is afraid, hurt or feeling trapped. A whiney medium pitched squeak usually means your rat is unhappy about something or is being dominated by another rat.

Teeth grinding is only done when your rat is relaxed and is a sign of contentment.

Teeth chattering is a clicking sound your rat makes when he is angry, often at another rat that has invaded his territory.

If your rat freezes and the tail shivers, shakes or slaps the floor in short, rapid movements he is angry, annoyed or feels threatened.

Source: PetRatCare.org - Rat Behavior.

I knew they were very social and friendly but didn't know that they did all those cues! They can also learn their names! Cool!

"Spinster mouse" was a term used in "Death by Utopia" (I think). The term applied to female mice past their prime that then avoided the other mouse population preceding The Beautiful Ones. I don't think of you past your prime at all!

Remember Douglas Adams! The mice are running the show observing our behavior! Those pan-dimensional, super smart beings just look like mice in our dimension.

Tell us how your new room mates change your behavior!

I came back to this with one single thought, at the start he stated that he had removed the natural predators , and then it dawned on me humans no longer compete in nature so we are missing that vital natural check on population and then it occurred the reason we are so violent is because we have completely moved out of nature into our own built environment and just like the video when too many humans are together they become violent if they compete against each other for resources. As the futurists of italy used to say war is the worlds only hygeine.

a reply to: sapien82

Unlimited food (almost), no predators (well, there are, but most people know what to do around sharks and bears),... huh. I didn't think of it that way. Funny how something so benign as mouse and rat study from late 1960 can make you ponder things!

There is a growing menace to humans though: antibacterial resistance bacteria.

The more we take, the more they adapt. It is a spiral and out of control.

So I got that going for me! lol

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Rats are so cool.

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

My friend and I were discussing the book sapiens by Yuval Noah , and he was talking about the last nomadic hunter gatherer tribe and their eating habits and a scientist had followed them and ate like they ate and his stomach bacteria were so healthy compared with modern humans and had discovered that this is the healthiest way to live apparently.

I think humans signed their death warrant the moment we stepped out of rhythm with nature.

We have to learn to dance the dance again

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

I want to report: first thing Lillith did is close the second entrance of her house. She's a ground level one entrance gal.
Lola has a one entrance two windows 2nd floor apartment she didn't leave since arrival, her radius seems much smaller. She only explored a tiny bit, found water food and settled.
I only know them a little bit and they're already very obvious different personalities. Not just environment.

a reply to: Peeple

I like the habitat!

Hope they start wandering around and pay attention to you.

Remember when you first heard of the Kinks? They have a song, Lola! Hope that is why she got her name!

Let us know how they changed you!!