Burn the House to Kill a Fly - Notre Dame grads don't know the meaning of Sacred

originally posted by: TinySickTears
im sure for some...
they network and make contacts and such.

and im sure for others(especially the socially awkward like me) they just want to sit in the dorm and blaze while they listen to phish, jack in and code all night, sit in the back of the class and avoid as many people as possible and graduate and gtfo so they can work at the googleplex

Programming, being considered a pretty nerdy hobby has in recent decades had a huge influx of people who face social challenges. In other threads I've probably gone on about this, but software development jobs have the most screwed up hiring culture of probably any field in the US. I think the reason for that lies on both the employer and employee side, but on the employee side... while people are students, they should take advantage of college as an opportunity to develop soft skills.

The world is not merely about what you know. If it were, a bunch of engineers out there, myself included, could likely solve 90% or more of the problems on Earth. All too often in life though, what you know is secondary to how you present it. The person who knows a little, but communicates it well is going to do more, and get more accomplished than the person who knows a lot but can't communicate any of it to others. Then there's the whole "who you know" part of life. Getting anything done in an organization (and at a macro level, even existing in society is just another organization) relies on who you know.

Personal experiences and contacts are what people turn to when something new comes up. This is the advantage of going to a better college. They don't actually teach better for the most part (in general, they're actually easier) but they do establish contacts between the student and influential businesses/people. If you want an example of this, thing think about the job market. Good jobs aren't advertised on monster.com. They get filled through professional networks, people who know talent that pass along resumes, vouch for candidates, and bring in their contacts.

Just sitting in the back of the room is the wrong way to go about things. A lot of students get deluded and think that studying hard and getting that 4.0 GPA is what matters. Grades are good to an extent, but knowing people is better.

a reply to: TinySickTears

Yeah, I know. Sorry my visual cortex isn't cloud-capable yet, but I still know. Incidentally, I am one of those anti-social types outside of class and ATS... a redneck nerd, if you will.

Once or twice in a generation there will be an exception, but I have seen what you describe dozens of times. All ended with the same result: poor grades, poor performance, and eventual dropout. No degree, unless they move to one of the majors where performance isn't stressed. If they do, there's little call in the job market for underwater basket-weavers.

The successes are, without exception, those who engage the class, ask questions, attempt to understand, and take initiative to create and expand themselves. I've known several of those, and they all went on to good jobs and are respected engineers and/or scientists.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I attend a very difficult program, I would say that on average it's the more social people that make it to the end. I attribute it to the fact that students build their own networks to help each other. Out of those who do finish, the more comfortable a person is socially, the more likely it seems to be that they'll get a job, or get a better job.

It's strange really. Before I'm done with school (hopefully forever) I've got 1 year to go. This summer I landed an absolutely incredible internship, with a potential to make a career out of it if I want. It's really strange, because now my former classmates are hitting me up for a job if we expand anymore (very likely in a few months), and the ones who I would consider for the job aren't necessarily the smartest, or the highest achievers, but rather the ones who I think would mesh best personality wise... and those two things aren't at all the same.

Edit: I totally understand being anti social, I'm hardly a social butterfly. But at the same time, life is about contacts. You don't have to be friends with every single person or even add them on Facebook. But being memorable is a good thing.

a reply to: Aazadan

I'm in a challenging course as well (Control Theory). I actually chose it because it was challenging. It's an area I was weak in, but was also interested in because of the robotic applications. Come to find out, it applies far, far beyond that field.

I will likely never be finished with school. I changed gears from full-load to as-needed when I hit the Baccalaureate level, but I definitely expect to complete at least one Doctorate before all is said and done.

Congratulations on the internship! I know the job is the end goal for a lot of people, and I hope all works out well for you.

The social aspect of college cannot be overstated. I have learned so much of other cultures through interactions with classmates, and formed some strong friendships. There was one Grad student who was teaching my Digital Design lab, and was a bit out of his element. Digital logic is one of my fortes, so I let him 'cheat' a little off me to help the other students. Another friend took the same class under him a couple semesters later, and told me that he had actually been using my old reports as examples... he saw my name on one report as the guy was using it for a reference. I caught him outside class and asked him about it and he told me I had been a great help to him and he hoped I wouldn't mind... I didn't mind a bit, because he taught me some Mandarin while we had some down time (he's from Hong Kong). Fair exchange, IMO, and I considered it an honor that he considered my work that good.

In Continuous Analytical Methods, I met a guy from Germany. I was struggling in that class, and he was nice enough to help me. Later on in his Senior Design class, I had the opportunity to help him overcome a power distribution issue he was having. We actually talked about doing some work together outside of school to advance his project.

I've learned an awful lot about electrons in that school, but just as important, I've learned a lot about other people and cultures. I view the world quite differently today than when I stepped through the doors for the first time for orientation. I couldn't have learned all that from books... Lord knows I tried! I was self-taught for 30 years before I entered the BSEE program. It helped, but it wasn't enough.

Those who see college as an assembly line, or believe they can get the same thing from a book are deluding themselves.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TinySickTears

Thats me.

I like to be as far away from folks as i can, especially while working. although i like my family quite a bit, and wish i was around them more (we are on different sides of the state right now while moving...im the first outpost)

But most folks are very sociable. And its more pronounced in the fraternity orgs. Were it not for my wife i'd likely never go outside other than for work.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I dig you man cause I'm the same way. I love being around my wife and daughter but don't care to be around others. Like you if it were not for them once home from work I would be totally fine by myself.
I've always said I only feel alone when I am around other people.

a reply to: TheRedneck

The OP doesn't like that students expressed themselves at their graduation, (not the OP's graduation). Instead of sitting and listening to a speaker they don't respect, (with PLENTY of good reason), the American students exercised their right, and simply left the ceremony. The same thing's been going on since like, forever. I'd bet that if a speaker the OP doesn't like, like say Obama, was giving a speech and the students decided to walk out, the OP couldn't heap enough praise of them. Oh well, I guess when you go back to college at 50, you go with a sense of entitlement - one that allows you to more easily judge others.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
I will likely never be finished with school. I changed gears from full-load to as-needed when I hit the Baccalaureate level, but I definitely expect to complete at least one Doctorate before all is said and done.

I used to think like that. Who knows, maybe I'll go back to school some day. But for me right now I have 3 Associate's Degrees, a Bachelors, and I'm closing in on Bachelor's #2, I have over 400 semester credit hours accumulated. I'm fully aware that I'm not cut out for grad school and I've pretty much hit the limit of what going wide gets you.

I simply don't have it in me anymore to write endless papers for a softer field, and I've gone far enough into software to know that my sanity is on the line if I delve any deeper into how computers work. The main purpose of college in my opinion is to learn how to think, every major approaches it from a different angle, but at the end of the day that's the main thing they're all teaching. I've learned as much in that regard as I'm ever going to learn... so it's time to start looking elsewhere.

I don't rule out the idea of attending classes for fun/curiosity in the future. But I'm near the end of my academic goals at this point.

Congratulations on the internship! I know the job is the end goal for a lot of people, and I hope all works out well for you.

Thanks. It's a great job, and a good company. I wasn't really expecting to have an internship this summer, but everything fell into place. The company ended up coming to me and asking me to work for them. Considering it paid well, is something I could put on my resume, and works with cutting edge technology I took them up on it. I have a really difficult to work with viewpoint to life, which is that I don't ask for things. I think that if you're cut out for something, and good enough, people will offer it to you. Applied to employment, that basically means that I'm not the sort of person who will send out a bunch of resumes, I wait for offers to come to me. It reduces my options, but that's just how I am. Though I recognize that not everyone can do that... if no one is ambitious enough to seek out others, nothing would ever get done.

Those who see college as an assembly line, or believe they can get the same thing from a book are deluding themselves.

Books provide knowledge, enough books can give you the same knowledge you get from college. Of course, college is partially about the experience too. A book can only tell you what the author chooses to tell you and there's no real opportunity for a conversation about anything it contains. In college, you can talk to professors/classmates about ideas you're covering or even ideas you have.

For example, one of my professors works a lot with AI, and last year I decided I wanted to build my own AI. This was before I took any classes on the subject, or had more than a very basic understanding of the field. I laid out my problem, thought of solutions, and leveraged what I did know to come up with functioning software. Then I took it to my professor, and had him evaluate my approach. Everything came back good there, and then I took a class on AI and learned a few additional techniques I could implement.

I couldn't get that same experience from books, I could learn all about AI from them, and that can be a useful thing to know if you're interested in the work, or just curious. But coming up with a new approach and having experts critique it is something a book is never going to give you. That's what I see as the benefit of college. The college experience, if you're making the most of it, involves two way communication while books are merely one way. I think that people can learn from both, but college will teach you better.

a reply to: Aazadan

I'm fully aware that I'm not cut out for grad school and I've pretty much hit the limit of what going wide gets you.

I personally love Grad School. The classes become less of a professor lecturing and more of a back-and-forth conversation. The rules are relaxed quite a bit too... even deadlines for assignments are negotiable.

But, of course, that's my perspective... yours might differ.

I have a really difficult to work with viewpoint to life, which is that I don't ask for things.

We have that in common then. It is a disadvantage in many instances, but it has also led me to new discoveries because I never walked the 'primrose path' to a solution.

For example, one of my professors works a lot with AI, and last year I decided I wanted to build my own AI.

AI is one of the things that interest me deeply. I've done a lot of research into how the organic brain can handle learning the amount of data it does, and have come up with some pretty involved theories that explain the operation well. The problem I have with proceeding is the time and cost of building even a brain with the intelligence of an insect. I can recreate the neurons electronically using analog techniques, but the sheer number of such devices needed is astronomical. I did have the thought of developing software to simulate the same theory, but even that would require a machine well beyond what is commercially available. I would have to design and build my own multi-processor computer from scratch (design, etch, and propagate the board by hand), and write a specialized operating system to run it. That's just beyond me right now. Maybe someday I'll pick up a second Bachelors in software and have the time to devote to it.

The college experience, if you're making the most of it, involves two way communication while books are merely one way. I think that people can learn from both, but college will teach you better.

I completely agree.

Filters are a great example. I knew the formulas when I took that class, but I had never had much luck designing filters. The problem, as it turns out, was that one book would focus on time-domain calculations while another would focus on frequency-domain calcs. I did not have a background in transforms... never realized I needed to study transforms. With that knowledge under my belt, however, I was successfully designing simple filters three weeks into the semester! Much preferable to spending 30 years studying the wrong thing...

TheRedneck

a reply to: TownCryer

No, if you took time to even scan through the thread, you would see where I also condemned a similar action when Obama was a speaker, and realize this was not what you have characterized.

The respondent doesn't like researching what has already been debated and apparently has no respect for others.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

OK. My mistake. I'm glad you didn't let it prevent you from judging me though. Keep up your valuable service of letting us all know the kind of behavior in others that you don't approve of. So helpful.

Freedom, (in this case, of speech - which includes getting up and walking out when someone else might be giving a speech), is what America is all about. At least, for now.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Excuse me, but no one has the right to tell another person that something wasn't or isn't sacred to them. It's wrong to tell someone that their reality is invalid because it doesn't meet your requirements.

a reply to: TownCryer

They didn't just decide to get up and walk out because they disagreed with the speech. They attended for the express purpose of disrupting the ceremony because they disagreed with the speaker on issues unrelated to his speech, and in the process disrespected everyone else around them, including themselves.

...for the fourty-eleventh time... ^sigh^

TheRedneck

a reply to: aero56

I did not say what others can hold sacred. I said they desecrated something they claimed to hold sacred, meaning they don't understand what sacred is.

What's so hard about that? Am I typing in ancient Lebanese or something?

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
But, of course, that's my perspective... yours might differ.

I've looked into the MS CS from Georgia Tech, the whole thing is online for a flat fee per year, from a top tier university... it's an incredible program. I might do it one day, or I might wait for the MS Game Dev programs to mature more (they're not worth it right now) and go for one of them sometime in the future.

What hurts me is that most of my knowledge is CS based, with quite a bit of programming being involved. I'm not really a great programmer though, so I don't think I could cut it in grad school level courses. The only thing that makes me think otherwise, is my professors all saying their Masters programs were very heavy on theory and low on actual practice, I'm pretty good with the theory.

Another possibility for me would be going into robotics in the future. Robotics and games have a huge amount of overlap because it's all about translations and rotations in 3d space, either for graphics or movement, not to mention the AI component.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist
Invoking their right to peaceful protest... ugh. What was their purpose, really? What was their end game? It was simply to disrespect him. What poor character. Love or hate, never lack respect for authority. It'll bite you somehow or another.

"I am not scared of alligators and snakes, but I respect them."

My wife has a very subtle and sublime set of communications that, after 20 years, i've learned to pay attention to. At first (like most young husbands) i saw it as histrionic, and her complaints as "nagging". The breakthrough was when I realized it was more like she just had a subtle communication style, and her "nagging" was more that she was expressing frustration or concern that i'd only quell by listening and acting.

Anyway, my point here is that those kids took an action that, to them, meant something. To you and I its just kids playing dumb histrionics. And I bet that a good portion of them will one day regret the action for various reasons (especially the ones who acted out of youthful solidarity instead of real passion).

I won't argue that, and thanks for a new vocabulary word! BUT... There is something there I just can't put my thumb on. I don't know...

a reply to: Aazadan

My experience at UAH has been the opposite.. a lot of theory, yes, but more emphasis in application. That's what I love about it.

Robotics is my true interest right now. My work here is starting to center on a new concept using group intelligence among modular robots for space exploration, disaster recovery, and military reconnaissance. That was the impetus for me to go into Control Theory and Communications. I'm working out the forward and inverse leg dynamics now. I'm probably going to have to bring in software assistance at some point in the future, though. I can handle the joint controllers, leg controllers, and possibly the movement controller myself, but navigation is going to be pretty involved. I'm thinking of just patenting the base when I get it that far and releasing it. Let someone else handle the AI from that point. As long as I can include enough intelligence to detect soil conditions, unexpected damage, and uneven terrain, that should be good enough for my part.

Thinking about using Communications as a major in my Doctorate, maybe Control Theory and Sensor technology as minors.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

20 pages in, you finally figured it out. It was right there in the OP all along.

Nah, I read the two couple, saw you was replying to most, skipped to the last couple.

These students were given something precious, something priceless, and they had such little respect for those who gave them that, those who supported them, and those around them, that they couldn't be bothered to show a smidgen of respect for a few moments to a man telling them how wonderful they are.

This is where we disagree, those degrees have a price. Tuition has risen at ND just like all the schools, but I know what your saying. Have you thought that to them, through the long hours of work and crunch time they put in that they wind up with Pence? Pence. I don't hold it against them for that, you can only be shoved so much before you shove back and that's true for everyone.

Besides, college is the birthplace of demonstrations like this and yes, stupidity as well.

I love knowledge, and I am offended by anyone who considers knowledge worthless.

We're back on the same page, good, good.

a reply to: cenpuppie

Have you thought that to them, through the long hours of work and crunch time they put in that they wind up with Pence? Pence. I don't hold it against them for that, you can only be shoved so much before you shove back and that's true for everyone.

Surely you don't suggest that any of these students went through the long hours of hard work at high cost just to hear a guest speaker at commencement? That's sorta like buying a Walmart so you can watch TV.

Pence was not the focus of the celebration. The students were, and some of them showed just how little they care about anything except what they want at this moment in time. I have a dog with more forethought than that.

Besides, college is the birthplace of demonstrations like this and yes, stupidity as well.

True enough; I just don't necessarily agree that such is a good thing. Colleges are typically filled with people who are young and idealistic... that tends to create both.

I would hope that one part of a college's goal would be to channel that youthful exuberance into a more productive venue. After all, what was the goal of the protest? To stop Pence from speaking? Hardly possible once he started; someone was a few weeks late on the timing. To change Pence's policies? Again, poor timing because he wasn't there to speak on policy. To show they dislike him? That's just downright childish IMO.

TheRedneck