Jesus view on homosexuality and civil law

originally posted by: xbeta
a reply to: Logarock

is it same with dont ever make mistakes?

Yes probably. But make no mistake, taken as a whole the bible makes the pains of adultery and divorce very clear even though grace is extended.

Hay but wow you hit on, in thread title "Jesus and civil law". Lets move this over to some comments Jesus made about the lawyers and religious folks that laied waste to widows "homes". In other words took advantage of widows and orphans, the stinging rebuke of this practice is hit on by Jesus and some of the major prophets.

We can even extend this to modern day religious leaders that take advantage of the sick by promising healing if amounts are given to this or that ministry. Not much different really than some widows that get ripped of by reverse mortgage firms, government tax laws ect all the while upholding the virtuous front of do gooder. Jesus judged them.

Now are yous going to set there and tell me you shouldn't judge? Are you like these? Probably not. Anyone ever see what a crooked lawyer can do or is capable of?

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Raggedyman

If someone is living in sin, is it not love that commands you to tell them as much?

Did Jesus ever condemn anyone?
But you do?

Off the top of my mind....lets see he condemned:

The entire religious leaders, money changers, wait a minute .... he even BEAT them..... lets see..... he also condemned Judas......

Yeah, that's right, Jesus condemned the religious and religious leaders
The religious, the people who condemned others, stole money, executed judgement on others.

Isn't that the whole point of the bible, religion makes people nut cases, Jesus came to set us free from religious nut cases

Who,did Jesus beat?

a reply to: Raggedyman

To add further:
"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."

Don't you think Jesus knew that verse? And it sure sounds like some Republicans. And it certainly didn't mention homosexuality.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Raggedyman

To add further:
"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."

Don't you think Jesus knew that verse? And it sure sounds like some Republicans. And it certainly didn't mention homosexuality.

It does sound like it was a judgement against the arrogant, God was using a different covenant pre Christ, judgement was called for to protect Israel.

But even God called for mercy over sacrifice in the OT



Anyway just as an aside
This thread is addressed to christians

Jesus can judge because He is God. We are not God, God commanded christians to love Him and love each other

Note helping the poor is loving them. If we judge others, we will be judged with the same judgement we use

Jesus was God, He has the right to judge, we are not God
I am not saying that if a person steals from us we can't judge them as a risk and be cautious, that's not judgement, that's common sense

Now remember I am talking civil law and not religious law
I am talking about those outside the church, not those in the church, again we are dealing with civil law and non Christians in this thread

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: UnBreakable

THOUGH SHALL NOT KILL.

Is that good enough for why NOT to have an abortion or does it need to be spelled out for you?

Its Actually means thou shalt not MURDER.

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: Raggedyman


This isnt true. I cant understand where these ideas come from. Even an objective neutral observer can see that Jesus taught a lot of judgment and made comments that did not support a moral relativism.

No thats the OT law. the NT is what christians are to go by. This is why Christians get in so much trouble because they think the OT covenant applies to them when it does not.

They get into trouble because NEITHER covenant applies to them.

ACtually the NT does apply to christians/gentiles.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Raggedyman

If someone is living in sin, is it not love that commands you to tell them as much?

Did Jesus ever condemn anyone?
But you do?

Off the top of my mind....lets see he condemned:

The entire religious leaders, money changers, wait a minute .... he even BEAT them..... lets see..... he also condemned Judas......

Yeah, that's right, Jesus condemned the religious and religious leaders
The religious, the people who condemned others, stole money, executed judgement on others.

Isn't that the whole point of the bible, religion makes people nut cases, Jesus came to set us free from religious nut cases

Who,did Jesus beat?

How is anyone to parent a child if they are never to judge?

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Raggedyman

If someone is living in sin, is it not love that commands you to tell them as much?

Did Jesus ever condemn anyone?
But you do?

Notice he has not replied to me because I noted the OT law applies to the Hebrews Specifically,and the NT applies to Gentiles specifically.

Notice you didn't answer my question, only stated another question

I answered yours by stating a christian asking you to define yours, yours seems Jewish

You didnt ask me anything. you asked someone else something. i believe occamsrazor.

BUT ill answer it anyway. No i dont think Jesus condemned anyone.

And I try to not condemn anyone either,but sometimes its hard because im not perfect.

a reply to: Raggedyman

But just because there is a difference between civil law and religious law does not mean you should allow immoral things in civil law.

In other words, if I am voting on a law, I vote my morals and what I judge to be right. My morals have been formed by my understanding of what God and Jesus both taught. I do not simply set those teachings aside because I am voting on a secular law. If my morality says that a thing is wrong, then that is how I vote because I am not just voting for non-religious people ... I am also voting for myself. It's my voice represented in that vote, and my voice is perfectly free to vote as it judges to be moral for itself.

You an get all bent out of shape with how my morality is formed and votes, but that's none of your business. I may or may not like how your morality is formed and votes, but it's your vote and your voice and your choice to make.

I think Jesus made clear a line between civil law and "church" law - give unto Caesar.

The United States was founded on the principles of religious freedom, and became an initial refuge for sects that were cast out, and oppressed elsewhere.

It became a model for the Western world.

It doesn't matter if you agree with me or not, or this or that sect.

Since the enlightenment in Europe (which was arguably also based on Christianity) we have the freedom to disagree!

The church and state are separate.

So I can be gay, and you can be whatever - but eventually we both have to be willing to die side-by-side when those fundamental freedoms are threatened.

a reply to: halfoldman

You would think we would be, but these days it seems like half of us would rather despise the other half because they disagree.

What people attacking Christianity in this thread seem to miss is that not even all Christians agree on this topic which has been demonstrated pretty openly here.

This is a tough topic inside the faith and out and there is a lot of disagreement on what "judgement" is and what "love" is and what a "marriage" is.

At the end of it all, we should recall that people are free to live out their interpretations still, and in the end, what I personally think about it doesn't matter. People don't have to approve of every little thing I do in order for me to be happy and fulfilled in life, and the same should apply to all of you, too.

a reply to: ketsuko

Please vote as you see fit, I am not saying you can't
I am saying that Jesus taught that you should do it in love. How you come about your decision is up to you, Jesus said do it in love

Can you condemn, say homosexuals, and then love them? I don't believe so
If the civil government allows gay marriage, I will still love homosexuals.

The last thing I am going to do is get bent out of shape because of your decision, I can love a gay, I can also love hate filled fundies, not saying you are one...

a reply to: yuppa

And I agree and am sorry for my confusion

a reply to: Logarock

This isnt true. I cant understand where these ideas come from. Even an objective neutral observer can see that Jesus taught a lot of judgment and made comments that did not support a moral relativism.

As much as you want to believe judgment, it is not your place to judge, secondly Christ never, ever, spoke against homoseuality and if no one has ever challenged you on that, I will be the first.

In all of Christ teaching, it is all about love and forgiveness. The fact is, it is the many Christians churches that has taken the word of christ and twisted the religion into something very hateful. Been down this road many times.

I have been informed by many christians today that Christianity is only FOR STRAIGHT PEOPLE. Where did Christ teach that?

Christianity is for everyone and not just for straight people as many straights believe they are above, or better than other people sexualy.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: ketsuko

Please vote as you see fit, I am not saying you can't
I am saying that Jesus taught that you should do it in love. How you come about your decision is up to you, Jesus said do it in love

Can you condemn, say homosexuals, and then love them? I don't believe so
If the civil government allows gay marriage, I will still love homosexuals.

The last thing I am going to do is get bent out of shape because of your decision, I can love a gay, I can also love hate filled fundies, not saying you are one...

Ah, but now you are getting into a different topic.

No one said anything about condemning them. We were discussing the matters of sin and marriage, not condemnation.

A person can recognize that their much-loved friend committed murder and deserves to spend the rest of their life in jail as well as having committed a grievous sin and still love that person. Condemning that person is flat-out saying that person will go to hell no matter what for it.

What I said is that ALL of us sin: you, me, and everyone. We can also all be forgiven so long as we stop defying God.

So even a murderer can be forgiven as he admits his sin and seeks forgiveness, but the murderer who never thinks he (or she) did something wrong remains in defiance. And even the unrepentant can still be loved by those of us on the outside.

a reply to: ketsuko

So a psycho-killer who repents just before he dies goes to heaven, but a gay altruist who doesn't goes straight to hell?

That reminds me of the Jack Chick universe.

A very bad person who repents and accepts the cult before he dies goes to heaven.
A truly good person who tried to be charitable and gracious all his life goes to hell.

To me that's an immoral universe.

It's saying Hitler could have gone to heaven if he believed in Jesus, but all his non-Christian victims went to hell.

Sorry, I don't think that's from God.

Unless we're talking of a very unfair and evil God not worth worshipping or even remembering.

We can't be really sure what were his words because Bible was manipulated many times. I've heard that there were texts about reincarnation but they were destroyed because they didn't fit the doctrine.

But you're right. We should all respect each other without rushing to judge.

a reply to: halfoldman

It's the act.

We all have the urges to do things we shouldn't. It's how we decide to act on them or not that define us and create sin.

a reply to: ketsuko

Well actually it's the state.

Humans inherited original sin from Adam and Eve.

Thanks a lot heterosexuals!