Hell is a 404

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

Great post! I agree with your interpretation. An omnipotent God needs nothing from us. So an all-powerful all-loving God would allow everyone through the gates of heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of our earthly sins or how we practiced (or not practiced) our religion. All are forgiven. All are saved. What difference does it make one way or the other for an omnipotent being of unlimited infinite power. People like the idea of Hell because people want vengeance and justice. But love is not about vengeance but acceptance and forgiveness.

I think when people die they might turn away from God and decide not to walk through the gates of heaven and into the light. For those people, they are immediately given the power of omnipotence. An omnipotent God can certainly make other people have omnipotent powers. Now at first this may sound like a good thing having the powers of omnipotence. But after a million or so years living out everything possible thing you can imagine millions of times over existence becomes extremely boring. Never ending boredom is probably the worse possible Hell one can experience. At that point, people are so sick of being bored they decide to turn to God and walk through the gates of heaven to experience eternal heavenly bliss.

The idea of eternal heavenly bliss is the greatest possible experience one can have. Nothing is more complete and fulfilling than staring into the face of God and experiencing God's infinite love. Having omnipotent powers may be fun for a thousand years or so but nothing in your imagination can ever compete with the infinite love experience. People of faith just enter the gates of heaven sooner than the sinners who end up wasting their time using their omnipotent powers experiencing finite joys to the point of boredom.

originally posted by: khnum
a reply to: Joecroft

Physical hells are in Christian(Tartarus),Muslim,Hindu,Buddhist and many other faiths.But what is a Religion its an information meme or in some cases contagion which is communicable, you download the unassailable texts and have spiritual 'guides' steer you towards the false or real reality(depending on whether its archon or not)soon you will have synchronicities or proofs that your ego believes you are onto the truth.Now with the power of consciousness if you really believe in a physical hell ,you might when you die end up there- its spirit/consciousness that moves on and if it judges itself unworthy and has invested a lot of time in fear and negative emotion it may gravitate towards a worser reality.It is your job to create yourself and I would strongly suggest a positive empowering meme be selected as what you expect you get.

In fact, it was a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist Hell that began me on my search - the only difference between that and the Christian Hell (as far as I could tell) was artistic style. I eventually caught up with Hell in Norse mythology as the goddess Hel and her realm, Helheim. So Hel is pagan but Hell is Christian? I don't think so...

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

Great post! I agree with your interpretation. An omnipotent God needs nothing from us. So an all-powerful all-loving God would allow everyone through the gates of heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of our earthly sins or how we practiced (or not practiced) our religion. All are forgiven. All are saved. What difference does it make one way or the other for an omnipotent being of unlimited infinite power. People like the idea of Hell because people want vengeance and justice. But love is not about vengeance but acceptance and forgiveness.

I think when people die they might turn away from God and decide not to walk through the gates of heaven and into the light. For those people, they are immediately given the power of omnipotence. An omnipotent God can certainly make other people have omnipotent powers. Now at first this may sound like a good thing having the powers of omnipotence. But after a million or so years living out everything possible thing you can imagine millions of times over existence becomes extremely boring. Never ending boredom is probably the worse possible Hell one can experience. At that point, people are so sick of being bored they decide to turn to God and walk through the gates of heaven to experience eternal heavenly bliss.

The idea of eternal heavenly bliss is the greatest possible experience one can have. Nothing is more complete and fulfilling than staring into the face of God and experiencing God's infinite love. Having omnipotent powers may be fun for a thousand years or so but nothing in your imagination can ever compete with the infinite love experience. People of faith just enter the gates of heaven sooner than the sinners who end up wasting their time using their omnipotent powers experiencing finite joys to the point of boredom.

No so quick there! I recall the Lake of Fire, weeping, gnashing of teeth, the winepress of the wrath of God and suchlike. For many, there almost certainly will be some suffering along the way to the Kingdom. Keep in mind the difference between the process and the ultimate outcome.

a reply to: khnum

Originally posted by khnum
Physical hells are in Christian(Tartarus),Muslim,Hindu,Buddhist and many other faiths.But what is a Religion its an information meme or in some cases contagion which is communicable, you download the unassailable texts and have spiritual 'guides' steer you towards the false or real reality (depending on whether its archon or not)soon you will have synchronicities or proofs that your ego believes you are onto the truth.

So you believe there is a “real reality”…a real truth so to speak…

But…

Originally posted by khnum
Now with the power of consciousness if you really believe in a physical hell ,you might when you die end up there- its spirit/consciousness that moves on and if it judges itself unworthy and has invested a lot of time in fear and negative emotion it may gravitate towards a worser reality. It is your job to create yourself and I would strongly suggest a positive empowering meme be selected as what you expect you get.

…You also stated that “what you expect you get”

You’re suggesting we create our own reality in regards to experiencing a Hell in the after life…but wouldn’t the “real reality” supersede that…?


Anyway, if our next reality depends on our own chosen positive meme, then in which way did you mean “Hell” in your first reply to me…?

You said you believed Hell probably exists based on seeing some type of entity…but what type of Hell were you thinking about or referring too…?

And just for clarity my first post in this thread was talking about Hell as defined by most of standard Christianity; i.e. a place of Fire and eternal torment/punishment and/or destruction…


- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Understanding Heaven or the Kingdom of Heaven, is what leads to understanding the word “Hell…”…Hell is a spiritual state. A state of being disconnected from God, in the here and now…IMO…

Only by receiving the Spirit of God, can we move out of that Hell like state and move into the Kingdom of God, which is within us…

Receiving the Spirit of God, is what moves us out of hades; it removes the veil and allows us to see the kingdom of God…

Thanks Joe.I agree with your basic premise that Hades” realm of imperception” is a state of mind(religious) and is a death that has no life.However you solution of receiving the Spirit of God sounds like it is straight out of the convoluted Christian dogma that produced the doctrine of hell where all a person has to do is believe such and such doctrine to receive being born again(in spirit) however Yahoshua never stated that nor is it reasonable.

Yahoshua always spoke of Spirit as Life that is not perceived while living this life, not some ephemeral being or a state of mind.Yahoshua’s context of Spirit is a process not unlike the conception of the human physical life.

When a person is conceived in their mothers womb they have “life” but are not alive in the world outside the womb yet because they are not fully “matured” to be delivered(saved) from the womb and are completely unaware of their impending “new” life.This is what Yahoshua is intimating in John 3.In other words he is not explaining the process of a conception he is only stating that it is a process completely out of the control of the person recieving it.

Just as when you were physically conceived by your fathers one spermatozoon mating with your mothers one egg you had zero choice in the matter so it is now.In other words Yahoshua wasn’t giving directions on “how” to be conceived and born(delivered) but was stating something that is metaphysical fact that the process cannot be known nor manipulated(choose to be born again recieve the Spirit etc etc…).Yahoshua clearly told the disciples who were the first fruits “you have not chosen me I have chosen you” and “none come to the Father unless the Father draws(drags) them.

That is why Yahoshua only speaks in metaphors because what he said of Life(Spirit) cannot be perceived through Hades(the veil of religious belief… the Belief System religion).The only veil that can be lifted is believing the veil WILL be lifted and then “knowing” of what is on the other is only possible to know that it exists not what it is or experience it while in the valley of the shadows of death(Hades imperception).That “knowing” (not believing) is the true hope of the Gospel(all will be delivered from Hades death and imperception)..

Joe I know you do not believe the Christian rhetoric of Hell however the remnants of those doctrines do not die easily.Yahoshua stated that until a person has entered the wide gate of destruction they cannot “know” and enter the straight gate that leads to life they can only believe their BS religion(Lord, Lord didn’t I….)

A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.The seeds of religion are the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.A persons Belief System (BS) religion is the core of their nature.When the good seed(the word of the creator God..the Son) is sown and is received in the good soil(knowing) BY the creator God(not belief) it grows a good tree that produces good fruit 30,60 and 100 fold .

a reply to: Rex282

Originally posted by Rex282
Thanks Joe.I agree with your basic premise that Hades” realm of imperception” is a state of mind(religious) and is a death that has no life.

If you agree that it’s a state of mind, then you should also recognize that there should exist an opposite state of mind, that should be achievable before we pass on…

Originally posted by Rex282
However you solution of receiving the Spirit of God sounds like it is straight out of the convoluted Christian dogma that produced the doctrine of hell where all a person has to do is believe such and such doctrine to receive being born again(in spirit) however Yahoshua never stated that nor is it reasonable.

Yes, but remember I’m not incorporating the standard Christian dogma into my own view…because I see universal truths within the Bible and Jesus words etc. truths which are beyond religion, and have nothing to do with religion…IMO

Receiving the Spirit of God is not a doctrine or a Religion, that’s where you’re making the mistake. Those aspects have indeed become a part of Religion, that is true…but they are in reality beyond religion, because they also contain universal truths.

It’s Christianity which wants people to believe in such and such a doctrine etc… but I don’t go along with those doctrines. Plus it’s not about just believing in something and thinking you’re now in the truth…

In other words, you can’t just believe in X,Y and Z and think you are born again, because becoming “born again” is an actual spiritual experience that takes place within a persons lifetime. Although for most people when this happens it does so under the influence of Christian doctrines…which to some degree can’t really be helped or avoided etc…

Originally posted by Rex282
Yahoshua always spoke of Spirit as Life that is not perceived while living this life, not some ephemeral being or a state of mind.Yahoshua’s context of Spirit is a process not unlike the conception of the human physical life.

Jesus spoke of the Spirit of life not being perceived by others, only because they hadn’t received it yet…

What you fail to be seeing, is that Jesus also spoke about the Spirit (Holy Spirit) being received in THIS lifetime…which is how one becomes born again…this is where the phrase “born of the Spirit” comes from…

Originally posted by Rex282
When a person is conceived in their mothers womb they have “life” but are not alive in the world outside the womb yet because they are not fully “matured” to be delivered(saved) from the womb and are completely unaware of their impending “new” life.This is what Yahoshua is intimating in John 3.In other words he is not explaining the process of a conception he is only stating that it is a process completely out of the control of the person recieving it.

Yes, but The “New life” happens upon receiving the Spirit. The New life happens within…and it applies to the future (afterlife) and to the here and now…

Originally posted by Rex282
Just as when you were physically conceived by your fathers one spermatozoon mating with your mothers one egg you had zero choice in the matter so it is now.In other words Yahoshua wasn’t giving directions on “how” to be conceived and born(delivered) but was stating something that is metaphysical fact that the process cannot be known nor manipulated(choose to be born again recieve the Spirit etc etc…).Yahoshua clearly told the disciples who were the first fruits “you have not chosen me I have chosen you” and “none come to the Father unless the Father draws(drags) them.

Yes, the Spirit choses who it wills, but it happens in a persons lifetime…otherwise Jesus would have never spoken about receiving the Holy Spirit, if it was just meant for the afterlife alone…

Originally posted by Rex282
That is why Yahoshua only speaks in metaphors because what he said of Life(Spirit) cannot be perceived through Hades(the veil of religious belief… the Belief System religion).The only veil that can be lifted is believing the veil WILL be lifted and then “knowing” of what is on the other is only possible to know that it exists not what it is or experience it while in the valley of the shadows of death(Hades imperception).That “knowing” (not believing) is the true hope of the Gospel(all will be delivered from Hades death and imperception)…

Yes and that knowing (Knowledge) comes from receiving one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, in a person lifetime, in the here and now…

Originally posted by Rex282
Joe I know you do not believe the Christian rhetoric of Hell however the remnants of those doctrines do not die easily. Yahoshua stated that until a person has entered the wide gate of destruction they cannot “know” and enter the straight gate that leads to life they can only believe their BS religion(Lord, Lord didn’t I….)

Where does Jesus say “until a person has entered the wide gate of destruction they cannot “know” and enter the straight gate”…???

The wide gate is living life without knowledge of the Spirit within ourselves. Which means there is only ONE gate (which is why it’s called narrow) which leads to life and that gate is not a religion or a doctrine to be blindly followed or believed in etc…


- JC

You guys are going in the right direction but your not 100% there yet on this topic.
I applaud the discussion and the progress you have all made.

Acts 2:31-32

31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

Jesus himself was in Hades for a short period of time, you could say he was cut off from God in death, but he was dead, it is well known he never had an instantaneous resurrection back to spirit life after his heart stopped and he breathed his last breath. Nobody is alive in Hades, Hades=Nonexistence, your soul is dead. Yet God can resurrect anybody in that state.In fact research indicates, Hades is a great place to be, because it means in the future God will bring you back to life either in heaven or on the earth.

Gehenna that is a different story if you go there your dead and your aren't ever coming back, non-existence with no hope of a resurrection.

In summary....


Sheol & Hades = Hope for the future and a return to life, a person is dead, but from God's perspective it is if they are just sleeping and in the future he will wake them up giving them either a new spiritual body or a physical one.

Gehenna = No hope, eternal soul death, gone forever, smoke ascends from that location as those in there are remembered in infamy for all eternity, as a lesson to any future rebels against God.

Tartarus = A place or state where live spirit creatures that rebelled against God are placed that is cut off from God's grace and love. This is the separation from God that has been discussed and often mixed up with Hades and Sheol.

The Abyss = A jail where all the spirits creatures go for 1000 years that opposed God, this happens in the future. No humans ever go in there, even if they died. Oh and they get out of the Abyss to test all those people resurrected from Hades/Sheol back to earth.

At the end all spirit and human rebels are killed and are in Gehenna. Hades/Sheol, Tartarus and the Abyss at this point are 100% empty.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

I don't have much to disagree with you on hades or sheol. Tartarus is found one time in the NT, so I would not erect any concept on it. Gehenna is a physical place in the real world, and Jesus was simply urging His listeners to act in such a way as to avoid the temptations of the flesh, crimes committed to satisfy those temptations, being caught, judged, and maybe executed, and having your dead body burnt with the rest of the trash...in Gehenna.

Burnt in Gehenna, you're in Sheol/Hades anyway.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

The "lake of fire" is equal to Gehenna in terms of punishment, which is total soul death and non-existence.

Revelations 20 13&14

13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

Obviously death and Hades are not alive, yet what that means is that the temporary state of death is over, Hades is now empty, those two states are then thrown into the lake of fire or destroyed. Anything that has the "second death" is finished and no longer exists.

So I ask you how can Hades be thrown into Gehenna ?

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Death and Hades cannot be thrown into the Lake of Fire literally, but I see it as symbolic. It is not the end of the story, as Death is the last enemy to be defeated/destroyed, and put under the feet of Jesus. When this happens, no one can then be dead and/or in a state of non-existence and/or in Hell. The LoF must at that time, give up its dead. If this does not happen, then God cannot become All in all, but He does.