Pardon Me, But Your Slip Is Showing… aka Mike Rowe v. The Press

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I have to point out that other groups have been getting these kinds of labels for years. But, I'm not really in the mood for that angle now

You keep making this claim, and I keep asking you to link to articles from main stream media (print, web or television) where these minority groups are branded as "uneducated". Fox news is right of center, find an article from them for me....

originally posted by: riiver
Have you taken a college course recently? I have. It was appalling.

Problem-solving? Right. Spoon-fed answers, more like.

I have. I'm currently registered for 5 classes, 17 credit hours. Writing this is a break from studying. One class has a professor I already dislike because he interjects Trump into everything but that's far from my normal experience. Most classes don't spoon feed answers either, they expect you to come up with it. Some don't even let you research, you're expected to derive the answer from the theory without any outside help. I would love spoonfed answers, I've been stuck on the same part of the same problem for two days straight now.

What I saw was this: classes catered to the lowest common denominator--rather than failing people who didn't make the grade, entire classes were forced to do dumbed-down work. For example, in my "college algebra" class, half the students couldn't do basic pre-algebra they should have learned in middle school. They couldn't get their heads around the simplest things such as positive and negative numbers. Did they flunk the class? The class that should have been a step beyond Algebra One? Of course not. Everyone else had to backtrack and sit through a semester of pre-algebra instead.

The type of class and the school play a big factor here. One of the big secrets of college is that every college has some department where they have to pass people in order to maintain students and keep the money coming in that pay the teachers salaries. Those programs have less integrity than the ones that can afford to fail people. In some schools it's the gen ed's, in others it's particular programs.

And you know what? I passed both classes with a B. That is just...obscene. I went there to learn. Not because I wanted a degree, but because I wanted to actually learn something. But learning wasn't part of the program.

Perhaps you were in a program that needs to make things easy for students. The reality is inverse to the perception, the better rated the school the easier they tend to be. This is because people want in and they'll pay, a couple years ago, Yale didn't fail a single student in an entire year. They have no integrity. Smaller schools will happily fail you for not doing well rather than just giving you a C.

originally posted by: riiver
College today has become the equivalent of high-school, and a college degree is looked on in the same was a high school diploma used to be. Problem-solving etc are skills that should be learned well before college, and once upon a time actually were. Today, schools are too busy "teaching to the test" to teach problem solving so it's left until college.

If you don't teach to the test, what else do you teach to? Random material that has nothing to do with examinations?

originally posted by: riiver
a reply to: Aazadan

So, in order to get an education you must sit in a classroom? I fail to see the difference, quite frankly, between sitting in a classroom while someone drones on about the topic and simply reading about the subject yourself. From a textbook, if need be. What is it about sitting in a classroom that makes it a better form of learning than reading, watching videos, engaging on discussion boards, etc as a means of learning. Wait a minute--that's a description of an online college class...

Having an expert on hand to discuss questions and thoughts with, having peers to inspire other questions, and being more confident that you're learning from credible sources. All the studying in the world doesn't do you any good if you're learning from quacks.

originally posted by: ownbestenemy1
$25/hour is above median wage for the whole of the United States. It does have less purchasing power, but that isnt dictated by wage but the rather the strength of the US Dollar.

What metric are you using to suggest that 25/hour is "not well paid"

You also state it is "well below" the average...mixing terms here between median and average, im still failing to find data that supports your claims.

Sorry, I was using the quick estimate, hourly * 2000 is very close to yearly. If it's actually at $52k or slightly above I stand corrected. However, my main point was that if you're topping out at the median, you're not doing very well. Salary progression should go from low, to medium, to high. If your realistic long term plan is that you're only going to hit medium (and the lower part of medium at that), there's probably a flaw in your plan unless you really enjoy the work.

originally posted by: riiver
On re-reading this, I find I'm a bit confused (maybe it's because I'm uneducated). You say you have "just under 400 college semester credits." Do you mean actual credits? You have almost four hundred credits? At 12 credits per semester and 2 semesters per year, that's sixteen years of college. Are you saying you have sixteen years of college? Or are you talking about credit hours (which, at an average of 3 hours per credit, would put you at around 5 1/2 years of college)?

Please clarify for the uneducated among us. Thank you.

Semester credits, though most were taken under quarters and then converted to semesters, so my 4 hour quarter class is only 2.67 semester credits.

And no, I have closer to 9 years, I got very sick after HS and didn't attend college until I was 25, I'm 34 now. I haven't broken 400 yet but I will either spring semester, summer, or fall next semester depending on my courseload. The actual number right now is something like 365, plus the 17 I'm currently taking. I used to take ~23 or so per semester plus summer classes, but I can't do that anymore.

originally posted by: riiver
a reply to: Aazadan

That depends entirely upon where you are, what the cost of living is, and the job you're doing. In my area, $25 is not just "paid well," but paid VERY well.

I'm assuming a typical area. You could live in a low COL area like I do where most people get by on $15k or less, in which case $25/hour is pretty nice, but most people don't do that. Of course if you are doing that, it still doesn't put you in a very good position long term because goods are becoming less localized and instead adopt a national price. It's great for the people who set up shop in cheap areas and sell all over the country/world, but it works in reverse too. If you're doing local labor but having to pay national prices to import goods you pay more (in terms of hours worked) for the same item.

originally posted by: raymundoko
You do not understand...

The "minority" I am discussing makes up 30%+ of the population. The "majority" usually gets split between the two parties, the minority groups do not. The articles are very clear this is only WHITE VOTERS. They exclude minorities from the numbers.

When you combine the minority with the portion of the majority who vote democrat, you end up with democrats getting the "uneducated" vote. If you need help let me know. Math can be a problem for those who lack education.

The only votes that matter are the votes for the winning party in each state. Uneducated democrats in Mississippi don't count towards Democrat success for the Presidency, and usually don't count for Congress either. Every single one of them can stay home, or they can vote... it really makes no difference due to the EC. Though it could matter for state/city level issues.

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: Aazadan

Ok, so now we know you just have no idea what you are talking about. 25 dollars an hour IS the median income in the USA, or 52k a year.

You should educate yourself.

Maybe start with google

As I said before, I used the quick estimate of hourly * 2000, which came up slightly less than $52k, but it was an estimate. Like I said to the other person though, if your long term career path tops out at what any reasonable career is going to start at... you might want to rethink things if your path is wanting to be financially secure. If you just like the work though, things are different.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: CornShucker

But it could also be said, that the more managerial you get, the more removed you are from day to day operations because you're focusing on people not on the nitty gritty work your company does. Maintaining a network of competent people to perform the work is a skill in itself.

By this principal, the most skilled people are never going to be in charge, because their skills atrophy as they spend more time in management.

You've just given a good synopsis of why Undercover Boss continues to pull in good ratings.

After I was blackballed by the furniture factory that I'd walked out on, I had to do whatever it took because we had three kids to raise. With severe back problems, my options were limited... My time making sandwiches at a Subway was made much more enjoyable by our franchise owner. Very few of our customers knew the deal on the nights when he put on a Subway t-shirt and hat and worked evening rush hour side-by-side with me.

You make a good point. He knew how to do every job he asked any of his employees to do. If he'd had more than three shops that would probably have been unlikely.

I will always believe in the power of positive reinforcement, though. A man or woman who takes pride in their work doesn't require someone in management looking over their shoulder.

originally posted by: CornShucker
You've just given a good synopsis of why Undercover Boss continues to pull in good ratings.

Never watched the show, but I've seen several real life CEO's that do that. It's a very good way to understand what's going on in your company.

I've said on numerous occasions that I have high expectations for people in authority. This is one of them. The boss doesn't need to sit beside you doing the same job as you all the time... but doing the grunt work to keep one foot planted in the reality of how things are from time to time (even just once every year or two) is very important

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: ketsuko
Do you think someone is stupid if they do not have a degree?

Not necessarily stupid, but I view people without a minimum of a 4 year degree the same as I view high school dropouts because they're the exact same thing... a person that wasn't willing to complete a necessary level of education. Are there jobs which don't need those 4 year degrees? Sure there are, but education is more than job training, it's also teaching problem solving skills, and more importantly social conditioning.

Somehow I missed this earlier...

There's a part of me that feels like I should be offended, but mostly it's just sadness.

Even the hard sciences have to change occasionally because of the exception to the rule. I was just starting to warm up to you, too.

I was slave labor as a child and the moment I could make any money outside of the house I was charged for rent, food, laundry and clothing to live in the same house my siblings lived in free of charge. During a period when my wife and I were a hair away from losing everything we had, my father told me, "I love it when times are hard for you because that means my investments are making me money."

You can assume anything you want, but I've never considered any job I took as being beneath me and one thing NO employer has ever called me is lazy.

a reply to: CornShucker

I never called anyone lazy. I simply said that I look down on people without a college education. It's not because I consider myself so much better than them because I don't (I have a very negative view of myself) but rather it's because I see the loss in potential. Someone needs to work the unpleasant jobs in society, and if someone is ok doing so... then more power to them.

But I see a world where most people seem to want more than they have, but they don't have the means to get it. Some can't pay for college, some can't stand to sit through it, some don't get the opportunity to finish high school, and some never land jobs where the employer trains them. All are issues but at the end of the day they all involve some form of learning mechanism.

I would like to separate college from job training. People go to college to expand their minds, people should go to apprenticeships and trade schools to learn how to work.

Basically, being ignorant of how the world works, shouldn't also deny a person the ability to work a decent job. They're different principals, and still important but totally optional in life, unlike job skills.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: ownbestenemy1

Of course I do. This will sound more antagonistic that I intended :-)

But, why wouldn't I?

You are assuming others will feel your replies are antagonistic before they even have a chance to digest your point. Interesting.

Since I'm one of maybe three leftier leaning folks that felt like wading into this thread - I do feel a little conspicuous. I am going to say this - It's interesting to me how bothered this particular group seems to be by being lumped - into a group

I ask this, how do you believe you are only of a small minority that sees them as "leftier leaning" in this thread. Save those that have expressed there partisan beliefs, I cannot fathom to understand how you determined such unless you are predisposed to believe anyone opposite your view is not "leftier" as you put it.

I have to point out that other groups have been getting these kinds of labels for years. But, I'm not really in the mood for that angle now

They have. Those labels are just as lazy. What is your point?

This is really a big conversation, but wounded pride goes towards explaining why Trump. If Trump is your guy, you won't be able to see him through the same lens as I do

If we all viewed the world through the same lens, it would be a bleak and boring world would it not? The thing is, as I read your replies, your stance is if others dont share your view, they cannot possible understand. You then turn it right around and lament the very thing you portray.

So im the end people agree and disagree with the OP. We fight and make our points to enhance our positions. In this instance, the underlying point is that the media is utilizing a lazy term to advance a political agenda. People are disgusted by it.

a reply to: Aazadan

You say its a loss or waste of potential, but what if that potential is harvested via other means than a formal education?

A college degree doesn't mean potential was tapped.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: CornShucker
-- snip --
Basically, being ignorant of how the world works, shouldn't also deny a person the ability to work a decent job. They're different principals, and still important but totally optional in life, unlike job skills.

Btw, I like the point you made earlier about everyone being low information voters this cycle. I've been thinking that myself. This dog and pony show feels a lot like being a captive audience at a cheesy magic show. I know just enough about magic & illusion to be aware of a lot of poorly done misdirection and am left with the uneasy feeling that I won't be entertained OR amused when we get to the Reveal...

The only opportunity I had when I left home was an open door. When I saw the door was open, I took it. That meant I started my adult life with a few changes of clothes, a guitar & amp and a used car with just under 100K miles on the odometer.

I had paid for the first six months at United Electronics Institute with what I'd set back picking up hay for other farmers. (The 6 months was by mail & then you took the 1½ years onsite in Louisville. I'd aced everything up until that point.)

Dad simply said, "I didn't go to college so I don't see why I should pay for yours." I qualified for absolutely nothing and had been bled of funds before I got out of the house, so that part of my life petered out. Since I graduated a year early I couldn't find anyone that would loan a 17 year old anything without a co-signer.

Darn shame too, because it turns out that I had natural aptitude. I was building guitar pedals while still in high school. They had yet to come out with the simple 4 function digital calculator, so I would have been positioned perfectly for the dawning of the computer boom.

I learned a lesson about the world, though. If you expect to stay healthy mentally & emotionally, you have to learn not to miss things you never had.

When personal computers became available I started to self-educate immediately. There was good reason for my professor to steal me away from our community college to work for him. I was doing things with a "toy" computer that his customers couldn't do with their IBMs. In fact, I assembled all the 384K cards I installed in the college computer lab to bring them up to 640K. Didn't have a single bad chip in 50 IBM XTs.

Working for your professor is as bad as working for family, though. Another lesson learned.

Hope life works out for you. No sarcasm there, I mean that. You've put a lot of work into being prepared for a life of tech. If the unthinkable were to happen about the only people I can think of you might find a job with after an EMP strike would be the gov't.

There's something to be said about the value of simple things like the difference between strategy and technique when fishing for bass, catfish or bluegill. If the time comes where knowing the little things means survival or starvation, it will be pretty hard to barter computer savvy for machines that no longer work.

☮

ETA:
I also wish you the happiness that comes with having a home and family. Sometimes being a father isn't much fun but my Life didn't actually begin until the day I became a Daddy.

a reply to: Aazadan

You have to go to college to learn how the world works? Are you saying you look down on Bill Gates and Steve Jobs? Steve jobs quit college before even obtaining an associates degree because he felt it was an undue burden on his working class parents savings...

I am fairly confident I am far more educated than you will ever be, and you sound like a goober.

a reply to: raymundoko

Fox news is right of center, find an article from them for me....

No

:-)

a reply to: ownbestenemy1

You are assuming others will feel your replies are antagonistic before they even have a chance to digest your point. Interesting.

Of course I do. I was about to make a remark that sounds a little snotty - without the preamble :-)

Not really that interesting - because what I got was what I wanted - a real response. You asked: Do you see though how a group can feel marginalized by the broad strokes of demograpic polling?

Of course I can see that - my previous posts already prove it. It was you that was making an assumption. Interesting

I ask this, how do you believe you are only of a small minority that sees them as "leftier leaning" in this thread. Save those that have expressed there partisan beliefs, I cannot fathom to understand how you determined such unless you are predisposed to believe anyone opposite your view is not "leftier" as you put it.

Familiarity. I've been here a while - I know most of the members. If I got some of them wrong - so what?

Actually - I am left leaning, and I fit the demographic we're talking about. I imagine there are plenty of leftists that also fit. I like Mike Rowe and like some of his shows. I don't have cable anymore, so I'm kind of not up on what's what lately

I wasn't drawing a line in the sand - are you?

They have. Those labels are just as lazy. What is your point?

Those labels are lazy and irresponsible at times - and then sometimes they are only accurate. Like now. I understand. My point is people are making this personal

From the OP's source:

If the media is referring to Trump supporters who happen to be male caucasians suffering from a lack of knowledge brought about by an absence of formal or practical instruction, than I guess “uneducated white men” is a fair description. However, if the Trump supporters in question are being dubbed “uneducated,” simply because they didn’t earn a four-year degree, I’d say the media’s slip is showing.

Mike Rowe makes two points at once. Both valid

Just saying the media...that covers a lot of territory. Conservative and not. They are guilty of implying that they think Trump supporters aren't making an intelligent choice some of the time - no different from what we might hear about Hillary supporters

When they say (repeatedly) that Trump supporters are less educated...
Trump overwhelmingly leads rivals in support from less educated Americans

5 myths about Trump supporters

Blue-collar voters certainly make up the bulk of Trump’s large coalition, but he is also doing very well among Republicans with college degrees. In six of the statewide GOP exit polls so far, Trump was the most popular candidate among college-educated voters. In another six, he was their second-place choice. Read more: www.politico.com... Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook

...they're not wrong. It's just a fact - not a judgement. But it's only a part of the story - and I mentioned earlier in this thread that a study came out saying exactly that:
A massive new study debunks a widespread theory for Donald Trump’s success

Explaining Nationalist Political Views: The Case of Donald Trump

Abstract: The 2016 US presidential nominee Donald Trump has broken with the policies of previous Republican Party presidents on trade, immigration, and war, in favor of a more nationalist and populist platform. Using detailed Gallup survey data for a large number of American adults, I analyze the individual and geographic factors that predict a higher probability of viewing Trump favorably and contrast the results with those found for other candidates. The results show mixed evidence that economic distress has motivated Trump support. His supporters are less educated and more likely to work in blue collar occupations, but they earn relative high household incomes, and living in areas more exposed to trade or immigration does not increase Trump support. There is stronger evidence that racial isolation and less strictly economic measures of social status, namely health and intergenerational mobility, are robustly predictive of more favorable views toward Trump, and these factors predict support for him but not other Republican presidential candidates.

I'm sure that will go over real well

The thing is, as I read your replies, your stance is if others dont share your view, they cannot possible understand. You then turn it right around and lament the very thing you portray.

Then I would say you didn't really understand my point. The OP is disingenuous. She assumes that less educated folk are being insulted - but only one kind of less educated folk. I don't agree

So im the end people agree and disagree with the OP. We fight and make our points to enhance our positions. In this instance, the underlying point is that the media is utilizing a lazy term to advance a political agenda. People are disgusted by it.

I'm not disgusted by it

How do you explain me?

:-)

If we all viewed the world through the same lens, it would be a bleak and boring world would it not?

I absolutely agree. And you know what? I think this election is going to prove something to all of us - if we survive it. When it does, if it does, and if I'm right? it will be a very good thing. We have cause to be optimistic I think. Good luck to all of us. Also thank you - for a real conversation ownbestenemy

originally posted by: ownbestenemy1
a reply to: Aazadan

You say its a loss or waste of potential, but what if that potential is harvested via other means than a formal education?

A college degree doesn't mean potential was tapped.

It doesn't, but it means some effort was made at doing so. I don't know why people have so much trouble with the analogy, plenty of people say a Bachelors is todays HS diploma, by extension that means failing to get one is the same thing as being a HS dropout.

originally posted by: CornShucker
Hope life works out for you. No sarcasm there, I mean that. You've put a lot of work into being prepared for a life of tech. If the unthinkable were to happen about the only people I can think of you might find a job with after an EMP strike would be the gov't.

If that happens I will kill myself. No hyperbole there. I have no desire to live the type of life they lived in the 1800's. It's not that I have no skills for that type of world (I would be pretty good as either a banker, lawyer, calculator, or legal assistant), I just don't want to do it. Some people long for it, and would love to live in a simpler time... that's not me.

originally posted by: raymundoko
I am fairly confident I am far more educated than you will ever be, and you sound like a goober.

Perhaps you are. I've never claimed to be all that smart, after all I've needed nearly endless hours of classroom instruction and personal study to come to my own conclusions on concepts like economics, religion, and politics where as most people seem to come to an opinion innately. Plus, I'm actually a pretty bad student.

As far as Steve Jobs and Bill Gates go, they grew up in a time before a Bachelors degree was the new HS diploma. Perhaps I should have put some sort of age qualifier on my statement. I would probably look at them different if they were Zuckerburg's age (another college dropout). Some people just don't need job training, but that's a minority. Though if I'm being honest about things, I don't have a very high opinion of Jobs anyways... my opinion is much higher of Woz, he's the guy that made Apple, Jobs just knew how to sell things.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: seasonal
As a skilled trades man, we are treated as knuckle dragging idiots.

Oh, my God! Who treats you like that?

But the computer programmer who makes half of what a master craftsman makes thinks we are somehow beneath them.

Why do you say that? How do you know what they think of you?

Sound like some serious assuming is going on...

I Work in A Middle School and I'M a Janitor.
I Know what the Collage Educated Teachers Think of Me and It's that I am A Lower Form Of Life.
Not all of them but The Majority.

Funny Thing is Without me they Couldn't Function Properly.
I Keep Every Thing Up and Running.

Still I'm Uneducated to Them.
So I See Them as Better Just Because they are Educated

LMAO if they only Knew what I Know

originally posted by: ownbestenemy1
a reply to: Aazadan

You say its a loss or waste of potential, but what if that potential is harvested via other means than a formal education?

A college degree doesn't mean potential was tapped.

Right! Just the bank account.

a reply to: burgerbuddy

Not always. If you're poor like me, college is mostly free if you go to the right university. Pick a school with reasonable tuition, get a few grants, and even a bad student like me can attend for almost no out of pocket cost. Between Pell and the Ohio Opportunity Grant, my out of pocket costs are under $500 per semester, which I pay for in cash. All in all, my education has run about $70,000 so far but I've only had to pay about $5500 of that... pretty reasonable I would say.

originally posted by: Aazadan
-- snip --
It doesn't, but it means some effort was made at doing so. I don't know why people have so much trouble with the analogy, plenty of people say a Bachelors is todays HS diploma, by extension that means failing to get one is the same thing as being a HS dropout.

That went a long way toward clarifying your analogy for me. One disadvantage of online conversations is that there is no interplay of body language or inflection. Without them, misunderstandings can easily happen. No amount of emojis can make up the difference, although a smile can help make plain that no offense was meant.

Much has changed since my brother and I graduated in 1970. We were the first of the many grandchildren to graduate high school. Our sons always joked that I graduated the week after they invented the wheel!

Financial assistance was much different back then. Since our dad worked the farm AND full time @ ALCOA to pay off the loans he'd been forced to take out on the farm that was supposed to become his when my (not-so)great-grandfather passed away, I qualified for nothing because we were too "Wealthy" on paper.

I was pleasantly surprised when I found out I qualified for Pell Grants when I applied at our community college years later.

Now I understand the context of what you've said about college. If I were a student today, I certainly would leave HS with plans in place to continue my education. It's only semi-humor when I say they had to throw me out of HS... Technically, I was done the first semester of my last year, but I carried a full schedule because I enjoyed school & knew it would be over all too soon.

originally posted by: CornShucker
Hope life works out for you. No sarcasm there, I mean that. You've put a lot of work into being prepared for a life of tech. If the unthinkable were to happen about the only people I can think of you might find a job with after an EMP strike would be the gov't.

originally posted by: Aazadan
If that happens I will kill myself. No hyperbole there. I have no desire to live the type of life they lived in the 1800's. It's not that I have no skills for that type of world (I would be pretty good as either a banker, lawyer, calculator, or legal assistant), I just don't want to do it. Some people long for it, and would love to live in a simpler time... that's not me.

The thought is equally repugnant to me. If possible, I'd like to offer an apology about what I said about just getting to warm up to you. Since reading the post where you went into the focus of your studies, I've realized we have more in common than not. I look forward to more conversation in the future.

The "geek" in me would be lost without my little digital friends...

Living a life a few centuries removed from the present doesn't appeal to me, either. If I somehow managed to survive & take care of those I care about, that would be my true motivation. The minute someone needed to step out of the picture in order for the young and healthy to have the resources last a bit longer, I would be ready to go. Rather than suicide, what I picture is more like the Japanese elderly who would go deep in the forest to wait for death. Being among the trees with the creatures of the wood was a source of happiness and contentment as a child. Leaving the world among them doesn't sound nearly as bad as trying to live in a real-life Mad Max scenario.

a reply to: CornShucker

Aazdan is wrong though, and quite brainwashed by the system. I am in upper management and our only requirement for employees is a high school diploma. We PREFER a Bachelors, but we accept EQUIVALENT WORK EXPERIENCE which is usually 5 years in a related field.

Today's HS diploma is a HS diploma. I find it hilarious when people think otherwise. Aazdan doesn't even realize how awful they sound. Like a really, really bad, just awful person.

The only reason I went to college for so long is I "wasted" years in a scientific field. I didn't have the work experience needed to shift into the new field I wanted to move into, so I got another degree to get my foot in the door. In hind site I did NOT need to do that. I was brainwashed by the system though back then.

a reply to: raymundoko

Which employees? Most stuff I'm interested in asks for a bachelors + 5 years experience in several different technologies. That doesn't always mean they get that but to do what I want to do which is self employment on a low budget, one must know how to do everything on their own.

Also, HR filters are a thing, a job may not require a diploma, but you'll have your resume get through the initial HR screening far more often if you've got one.