Study of Tongues in the New Testament

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Lots of things we use to communicate biblical truths aren't in the Bible, we have developed theological terms. One example is the term Trinity, the Bible uses no such word, therefore it's not a reality? Of course not. Same with the theological term "rapture", it's likewise not in the Bible yet we use it to convey the truth of the catching away of the saints.

A private (because it's between the believers and God) prayer (speaking to God is prayer) language (uttered language) is a Biblically thing, as in the verse I already provided. A private prayer language isnt for the church as a whole, just the believer toward God. Diverse tongues (other human languages the speaker was never taught) and prophetic utterances (tongues for the edificationext of the church accompanied by interpretation) are not the same as the private prayer language.

And you did forbid it. In the OP you said believers shouldn't use a gift the Holy Spirit gave them, that's wrong to say.

a reply to: Akragon

Hardly anyone participating in this thread has stayed on topic. They seem to either:

1) Want to bash Christianity as a whole
or
2) Bash Paul

I doubt that the majority has even read the outline.

One of the best Paul bashers I've ever encountered used this verse:
Numbers 33 WEB

50Yahweh spoke to Moses in the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho, saying, 51Speak to the children of Israel, and tell them, "When you pass over the Jordan into the land of Canaan, 52then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their figured [stones], and destroy all their molten images, and demolish all their high places: 53and you shall take possession of the land, and dwell therein; for I have given given the land to you to possess it. 54You shall inherit the land by lot according to your families; to the more you shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer you shall give the less inheritance: wherever the lot falls to any man, that shall be his. You shall inherit according to the tribes of your fathers. 55"But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then those you let remain of them will be as pricks in your eyes and as thorns in your sides, and they will harass you in the land in which you dwell. 56It shall happen that as I thought to do to them, so will I do to you."

And then used the verse about Paul's eyes.

Of course I was panicked for a while, since I had been raised to think that some how by being a Christian, that made me an Israelite. Then it hit me. (And the OP does mention this ) I am a heathen. Why should a Noahide's problems with Paul be the same as my problems with Paul?

No reason. And if the Jesus character has a problem with me being a heathen, then that's his problem.

The OP is mostly focusing on Corinthians and how a public meeting should go (not like AOG). Corinth, as I understand it, was quite the eclectic place.

So you may think that I've handed you further ammunition against Paul, but that's only superficial.

ETA: after re-reading the last few pages, posters do seem to be staying on topic as much as usual.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Shahada

Satan wouldn't bother counterfeiting tongues if it wasn't lagitimate. And there was a study done in 8 people who speak in tongues and it showed that the part of the brain where people form spoken languages was not used.

What Satan? The one that works for Yahweh or the one made up by Catholicism, the cartoon goat version?

Either way, my comment that you are replying to was on point and Satan IS NOT REAL.

So what that has to do with language skills I do not know (or care), which is all I was saying "gift of tongues '' really means.

Satan. Lol.

As far as the New Testament goes, the best teacher of the dangers of the tongue is James 3 (taming the tongue)

Not many of you should become teachers...we who teach will be judged by a higher standard.

So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great exploits.

And the tongue is a fire.

...,sets on fire the cycle of nature, and is itself set on fire by hell.

...,no one can tame the tongue--a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

I noticed a mention of "Paul bashing" so I wanted to say that Paul brings that down on himself with his tongue. He should have not wrote those letters of desperation insulting the men chosen by the Messiah.

It is not "Paul bashing" but observation of words said by Paul in an intelligent manner.

And his actions (murder, persecution, boasting and insulting TRUE Apostles) make it a legitimate observation and not "bashing" at all.

He wrote the letters, his tongue is the reason nobody likes him.

He was THE tongue. The forked (serpentine) tongues of acts represent Paul who has a serpent tongue and will become anything to any man if he thinks it will gain him a follower.

a reply to: pthena

I made a comment referring to the term you used "Paul bashing" and I feel that it is not bashing because there are about 30 reasons why Paul is a fake apostle.

So if someone says something negative about Paul but not Jesus it is because that person has studied the story in the NT and realized that Paul is corrupt and not a disciple never mind apostle.

He is a false prophet sent by God to test the disciples (who rightfully rejected Paul). If only people read the story and didn't quote hop choosing the few things he said that SOUND profound (at first).

You do love this guy you are always defending him. I thought you were not a Christian? There is no reason to defend the guy he was a misogynist and traitor of traitors with no redeemable qualities at all.

If you want to defend the underdog or something you would be doing a great service if you used that good brain you have to defend innocent persecuted Muslims.

Just a suggestion.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Originally posted by ChesterJohn
There is as many as 5,000 tongues (languages) in the world today.
What my outline does is show how they are used and what types it is sign gift tongues-needs no interpretation as it is understood by the hearer, spiritual gift tongues needs an interpretation, and selfish use unknown tongues has not interpretation.

I don’t mean how many languages there are out there…like 5000 or whatever…And I don't mean how many usages (although that does kinda come into it) like 3,4 or 5 etc…

I mean there’s 2 specific types of “Speaking” tongue gifts (3 if you include interpretation of tongues) that are being outlined in 1 Corinthians Chapters 12, 13 and 14…

One is to be able to miraculously speak other known languages, presumably never learnt before; This is considered by some to have past away, as was only used to spread Gods word, in the beginning…

The 2nd is the gift of tongues, where one is praying to God directly in an unknown (angelic) language (no language speaker (of any type) can understand it)…this is meant to be direct prayer to God…which edifies the individual…

But people with the gift of interpretation of tongues, can supposedly decode this unknown language…this interpretation is considered a prophetic word, which in turn edifies the whole church…


- JC

a reply to: Shahada

You do love this guy you are always defending him. I thought you were not a Christian? There is no reason to defend the guy

Perhaps I find mutilation of the dead distasteful.

I wasn't going to get involved with this thread, OP 's outline seemed fine to me. Just wanted to agree with one poster's comment.

Sorry I did now, he doesn't need my backing anyway.

I will not respond in this thread further.

a reply to: pthena

You don't have to respond but if you really just don't like mutilation of the dead you don't have to worry.

This is analysis of religious doctrine, so he might be dead or he might never have existed .

Moot. Because nobody is mutilating the dead, just speaking the truth.

And it is fair game for intelligent analysis.

I think the reason that people spend a lifetime reading and re reading the same book instead of progressing to the Apocrypha and the Nag Hammadi scriptures or the Zohar has to do with tongues.

Mastery of the Biblical "Tongue" the spiritual language of the Bible is not possible for everyone.

These are the people with eyes and ears who can't see or understand and endless speculation and terrible and erroneous interpretations make it so they stay stuck on level 1 their whole life.

Every religion has extra scripture, Christianity is the only religion that cautions against reading the vast amount of Apocrypha because it shows how sorry Christianity is by rejecting scripture that elucidates the origins of the movement.

a reply to: Shahada
I think the reason people go to un canonical books like the Apocrypha and the Ng Hammadi or the Zohar is because they have not gotten to the point to where they believe God's word where he said via Holy Men of God as it is found in the preserved word of God.

Basically they do not believe God was powerful enough or intelligent enough to preserve his word to this Generation in English. so they themselves become god in place of God to decide how to interpret Hebrew and Greek and then decide what is good and bad in their own eyes.

originally posted by: Shahada


I think the reason that people spend a lifetime reading and re reading the same book instead of progressing to the Apocrypha and the Nag Hammadi scriptures or the Zohar has to do with tongues.

Mastery of the Biblical "Tongue" the spiritual language of the Bible is not possible for everyone.

These are the people with eyes and ears who can't see or understand and endless speculation and terrible and erroneous interpretations make it so they stay stuck on level 1 their whole life.

Every religion has extra scripture, Christianity is the only religion that cautions against reading the vast amount of Apocrypha because it shows how sorry Christianity is by rejecting scripture that elucidates the origins of the movement.

Or we paid attention when the apostles and early church fathers like Irenaeus were warning that the Gnostics in Alexandria were deleting scriptures they objected to.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

That is correct

So trinity is Godhead, or these three are one, rapture is gathering together or caught up, etc etc...

in these ways you don't have cults or other groups claiming like the JW or the Mormons that "trinity is not found in the Bible" and in defending that you end up fighting for a man made term in which they are correct. So using Bible terms will keep them focused on God's words rather than mans words.

Same with Rapture. Usually you end up going to Greek then Latin when there really is not reason to do so because if God preserved his words as promised we have them all in English. You just have to find the one English Bible that has all the verses that all the other 350 plus versions say are in error, spurious, or man made that up so the removed them.

a reply to: Klassified

Of course I can respect you for your opinion on that subject. No problem with me.

a reply to: Joecroft

That is basically it only separate the second one into two types one interpreted and one unknown therefore remains uninterpreted. This last use I call the selfish use of unknown tongues has no Biblical example but then neither does the gift of an interpreted tongue.

But the unknown tongue in many groups has substituted the Gift that is seen in Acts 2. That is why they claim to be having a Baptism of the Holy Spirit. But it is the Spirit who gives tongues as a gift not as a baptism. Because the baptism by the spirit is into one body (1Cor 12:13) and it is into Christ (Gal 3:27) not into speaking in tongues.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Shahada
I think the reason people go to un canonical books like the Apocrypha and the Ng Hammadi or the Zohar is because they have not gotten to the point to where they believe God's word where he said via Holy Men of God as it is found in the preserved word of God.

Basically they do not believe God was powerful enough or intelligent enough to preserve his word to this Generation in English. so they themselves become god in place of God to decide how to interpret Hebrew and Greek and then decide what is good and bad in their own eyes.

Apocrypha is good and fills in gaps, answers questions, enlightens and entertains. I just like reading and I like the Christ mythology but the Bible is not that big and it's fine if you don't like it but I find it all to be 100% valid scripture.

All scripture is the word of God not just canon. I have a lot of Apocrypha and have read it and it is sacred so you are missing out by not reading it.

You don't lose anything from learning and you can learn a lot from Apocrypha.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Looks pretty reasonable, to me.

Nice to see a decent treatment of the topic, for a change.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: starlitestarbright

There is a tab you can select above the reply box that is a little box with an arrow coming out of it.

Then you just first enter a word or words that you want to appear as the hyperlink, after you hit enter for that then you just copy/paste the URL in the box and hit enter a second time, and it automatically makes a hyperlink to your website.

Hmm, yea I tried that but for some reason it still doesn't want to link. I don't know.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: ChesterJohn
You know you're putting the pearls before swine here, right? Trying to teach us heathens something that can only be understood if your steeped in church doctrine and theology, as well as more than familiar with scripture. Nevertheless, nice try.

I've always found tongues to be an interesting topic. If we remove Paul's teachings from the topic as some would suggest, it becomes much simpler and clearer, to be sure. However, that doesn't mean it's correct. If we take Paul at his word, things become a bit more complicated, but something else comes through. Speaking from a biblical perspective for a moment, the "selfish" use of tongues becomes not so selfish.

Paul says we don't always know how to pray, therefore we can be/are given utterance, whether we are praying for ourselves, or someone else. This means the prayer is now coming from the heart, instead of the intellect. Which for the Christian especially, is something to be desired, since it is the heart that God deals with, more so than the intellect. So from the Christian's perspective, tongues are an indispensable gift or blessing for their personal prayers.

In a nutshell. I'll leave it there. Wouldn't want to sound preachy.

The intellect, which is your soul is your heart. It's where feelings and self comes from. It's not separate. The heart's just the major organ that makes these bodies tick.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: ChesterJohn
You know you're putting the pearls before swine here, right? Trying to teach us heathens something that can only be understood if your steeped in church doctrine and theology, as well as more than familiar with scripture. Nevertheless, nice try.

I've always found tongues to be an interesting topic. If we remove Paul's teachings from the topic as some would suggest, it becomes much simpler and clearer, to be sure. However, that doesn't mean it's correct. If we take Paul at his word, things become a bit more complicated, but something else comes through. Speaking from a biblical perspective for a moment, the "selfish" use of tongues becomes not so selfish.

Paul says we don't always know how to pray, therefore we can be/are given utterance, whether we are praying for ourselves, or someone else. This means the prayer is now coming from the heart, instead of the intellect. Which for the Christian especially, is something to be desired, since it is the heart that God deals with, more so than the intellect. So from the Christian's perspective, tongues are an indispensable gift or blessing for their personal prayers.

In a nutshell. I'll leave it there. Wouldn't want to sound preachy.

The intellect, which is your soul is your heart. It's where feelings and self comes from. It's not separate. The heart's just the major organ that makes these bodies tick.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Lots of things we use to communicate biblical truths aren't in the Bible, we have developed theological terms. One example is the term Trinity, the Bible uses no such word, therefore it's not a reality? Of course not. Same with the theological term "rapture", it's likewise not in the Bible yet we use it to convey the truth of the catching away of the saints.

A private (because it's between the believers and God) prayer (speaking to God is prayer) language (uttered language) is a Biblically thing, as in the verse I already provided. A private prayer language isnt for the church as a whole, just the believer toward God. Diverse tongues (other human languages the speaker was never taught) and prophetic utterances (tongues for the edificationext of the church accompanied by interpretation) are not the same as the private prayer language.

And you did forbid it. In the OP you said believers shouldn't use a gift the Holy Spirit gave them, that's wrong to say.

This reply is off-topic so please forgive me, but there is no rapture...again, it's simply a misunderstanding of the written word just like tongues.