Study of Tongues in the New Testament

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Klassified
Paul we saying it was done not as a spiritual level speaking to to other men, but to God alone and that it was unprofitable to the church to practice the unknown tongue. Read the Third section of the outline.

I know what you were talking about. I know this topic, and the verses related to it well. I was just expounding a little off the beaten path to make a few points about tongues that are often overlooked by both Christian and heathen alike.

a reply to: Klassified

Oh well, of course I agree with that, mostly.

a reply to: misskat1

Google Professor Robert Eisenman and the dead sea scrolls. He is the man that made the dead sea scrolls public, by smuggling pictures out and publishing them. He also wrote the book James the brother of Jesus. Huge work, but there are online interviews that will blow you away with the historical information.

Definitely an interesting fellow, and to be commended for his push to make the scrolls public.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Speaking in tongues symbolizes the confusing language that the church speaks, language and concepts that have no basis in reality and only confuse people.

2 Peter 3
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

This is talking about Paul and how what he says is hard to understand. Paul speaks in tongues that can easily be misinterpreted as meaning something they do not mean which is why there are so many sects of Christianity today. The church does not speak clearly, only in vague ways in order to cause confusion.

Paul would rather speak in a language that is easily understood. That is his testimony, so your opinion cloaked with a bible verse out of the context is incorrect.

1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

This is the very reason I ask people to have a Bible handy and check what I or anyone else tries to teach with the word of God. Having a bible is not to enforce mine or anyone's else's opinion but for the hearer/reader to searc and to see if it is what is being taught in the context. Peter was not speaking of tongues he was speaking of doctrine and that is the context..

a reply to: Klassified
But your off the beaten path has no Biblical context. No where in scripture is there an esoterically teaching of tongues that speaks to a man spirit via the ethers or psych or any other realm of understanding. All these tongues were PHYSICAL TONGUES and the context shows that, the understanding comes from either them hearing their own language or an interpretation of a language or an unknown tongue.

Now I have heard of that sort of teaching in new age thought

a reply to: windword
That is your opinion and I can live with that.

a reply to: misskat1

Sorry you wont convince me so please take you Paul bashing stuff to your own thread. Not here.

a reply to: intrptr

For me my opinion is only a Jew seeks a sign.

For me like the Greek I seek wisdom.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: ChesterJohn

So we can have a difference of opinion on the word of God and still respect each other?

You mean agree wth you, sorry.

Edit: Disagreeing is not disrespecting by the way.

No I mean that we can have a difference of opinion of this subject and still respect each other.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You must have missed this part right before what you quoted:

1 Corinthians 14
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

He speaks in tongues more than anyone else, the "tongue" he speaks is the doctrine he pushes in his epistles which is "hard to understand" as Peter put it.

Why are there so many sects of Christianity today (20,000+)? Because the books they get their doctrine from (mainly Paul's epistles) is hard to understand.

Paul speaks in more unintelligible words (tongues) than anyone else, he admits that himself.

1 Corinthians 14
4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

Paul edifies himself, not the church (body of believers). Isn't the whole point of a leader to edify the followers? So why does Paul edify himself more than anyone else if he is supposed to be a leader?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: intrptr

For me my opinion is only a Jew seeks a sign.

For me like the Greek I seek wisdom.

Then learn how to look within. The kingdom of heaven is within you, why seek it outside yourself?

Everyone has a soul: a conduit, an antenna, straight to "Heaven".

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Sorry Chester, I didnt mean to be disrespectful. Just sharing where my 40 yr journey has taken me. There are some fascinating texts found at Nag Hammadi too. You can find these and lots more at sacred_texts.com

I still recommend Eisenmans work on James. The historical records available about James, is super fascinating. He goes into ancient Roman records, Josephius, Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Nag Hammadi and places the information into Historical context with what was happening at the time. Incredible information. Totally worth listening to.

Again apologies. K

Double post

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: BuzzyWigs
This is actually a human thing, more than anything else. You're a mother. How many times did one of your children say something when they were little, and to everyone else it sounded like gibberish, but to you it was plain as day what that baby was saying?

The idea of tongues is less of a biblical phenomena, and more of a heart/subconscious phenomena. It's the language of the heart that can't be spoken with intelligible words, but can only be uttered in sounds that vaguely express what is being felt. To the credit of the biblical writers, and others throughout history, they understood the marriage of thought and emotion as a coherent communication that was beyond words, yet was still understandable by others on a level the conscious mind was unable to grasp. The fact that it is hidden in plain sight in the bible is a testament to the bible's metaphysical and gnostic foundations, and should be read from that perspective. IMHO.

Something that humanity seem to have lost. Animals have their own emotional language if we choose to listen.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Triple post

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1Peter was not talking about Paul speaking in tongues. He was talking abut Paul's Doctrine to which he agrees even though it is a little hard to understand.

If you knew why you would know that Peter preaches the kingdom Gospel which had the tongues of Acts 2. While Paul preaches the gospel of the grace of God. But that is food for another post not here.

Also the context of Paul's teaching in 1Cor 14 is not about Doctrine but about the abuse of this church speaking in UNKNOWN tongues. So he gave them sound doctrine on how speaking in tongues was to be done and that is what you are overlooking.

Not one of Paul's writings to the church are hard to understand, any 6th grader can understand the words employed in the Preserved Bible.

Seems you are either trying to force or you have been taught this from another, two opposing subjects one of Peter's and One of Paul's together, to teach a false teaching that is not found in either context of the books you quoted.

This is the reason I asked for people to have a bible with them when checking anyone's teaching. I just checked yours and it is not so as you teach.

a reply to: intrptr
The Bible is eternalized in me by the Holy Ghost I don't need to make it something it is not.

The kingdom of God is very much active in my life.

a reply to: misskat1

I gave up those teachings and writings many years ago. I stick to the preserved word of God . the Holy Bible only.

No disrespect to you either. I can live with your opinions.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Funny because you keep gong back to it.

Its like this. If you want to become an architect you go to school and study architect 101, read the book and then move on. You don't keep re reading the same beginners handbook over and over. You advance in stages, form rudimentary to skilled and experienced architect.

Staying stuck in architecture 101 isn't the goal. The goal is become one yourself.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Paul would rather speak in a language that is easily understood. That is his testimony, so your opinion cloaked with a bible verse out of the context is incorrect.

Hi Chester. Thanks for inviting me to the thread. I have read through it now, and I want to say that I agree with Klass and windword, LittlebyLittle and intrpr, 3NL and other regulars on this forum -
the language of the Bible is suspect. Any document that has been translated (and therefore interpreted), rearranged, edited for content, and collected from countless incomplete sources is suspect as to original intention. What you're getting here on ATS is "peer review" - and we, your peers, do not find your beliefs and explanations to be valid.

I know that Jesus was an Essene (many of us do!) and that his teachings were corrupted by Paul and that was the beginning of the huge mess that is now "Christianity." I walked away from that stuff years and years ago, except to study it - because I fancy myself a linguist, and am multi-lingual (I speak two human languages fluently, and am able to understand some others (Latin based), I read music, I know maths, I understand my dogs and cats and horses when they communicate, and yes, I'm a mom who raised two kids and also helped raise dozens of others as an on-site parent educator).

The Bible is not a gift from "God" - it's the work of men.
Sorry, but that's the way I see it. And will always see it.

Whatever the divine is, it is within us ALL - there are no "saved" or "unsaved" people - we are all eternal beings -- believers and unbelievers alike. Even materialists and atheists - we all are on a unique journey with a common source and destination - I know I spend a lot of time and energy "bashing" modern Christianity - because it deserves to be unmasked and exposed.

The Pope is a good man - Gautama and Jesus were good men. Ghandi and countless other kind, empathic souls are good, also. No one INCLUDING JESUS on Earth has ever been perfect. That is a fact. If we were perfect, we would not be here. We are not here to "win a seat in heaven" - we are here to learn.

Sticking to just one set of interpretations indicates faulty critical thinking, in my opinion.
I know you take this stuff and yourself very seriously. Perhaps a bit too much - because you continue to 'preach' to us, knowing ahead of time that we don't believe what you're saying to be true.

I admire your tenacity, but, just know that you're no closer to the answers than any of us. We're all just as correct as you are.