New Rule Requires Doctors To Treat Trans Patients As Their Pretend Sex

originally posted by: samerulesapply

I already stated, which you refused to read - I've read them, I read that crap when it was posted in other threads.

I simply don't care.

Then why are you here?

I don't believe you've read them. I believe you've glanced at some and picked acceptable to you parts out of others.

a reply to: Annee

To participate in the thread.

the thread wasn't about the studies that were posted...that's not why people are here?

originally posted by: samerulesapply
a reply to: Annee

To participate in the thread.

the thread wasn't about the studies that were posted...that's not why people are here?

Shifting again.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: samerulesapply
a reply to: Annee

To participate in the thread.

the thread wasn't about the studies that were posted...that's not why people are here?

Shifting again.

How is it shifting?

What is the thread title? what is the thread about?

If you put it into perspective, most of my points are on topic...you and your clique bleating about some study isn't.

You appear to be confused...which doesn't surprise me in the least. You were aducated by a friend, after all.

A non-biased friend, let's clarify.

Attention!!!

Quit the bickering and off topic remarks!

Go After the Ball, Not the Player!

Community Announcement re: Decorum

You are responsible for your own posts.

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: daryllyn

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: daryllyn

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: daryllyn

If you are treating someone "like a woman," how do you tell them they have prostate cancer? Technically, you can't because women, real ones, do not have prostates.

They can still be treated.

All that's being asked here is for the preferred pronouns to be used.

It's not a lot to ask to refer to someone as the pronouns that match the gender they are living as.

Says who? I would think it would be insulting to that person to be treated for prostate cancer. I know it is insulting to tell them they aren't a woman? I know they get all upset when you point out the facts about biology. Why would this person even accept prostate treatment when they refuse to accept that they are a man and will always be a man?

Maybe these people need to address their schizophrenia first...then we can call them what they are and they can be treated for and based upon what they are.

All medical treatments can be denied. In the unlikely event that they really would be insulted by having prostate cancer, instead of being afraid, they could refuse treatment. Medical treatment is rarely mandatory.

To say all trans people are schizophrenic, is incredibly immature, and asinine. That conclusion is vacuous at best, and speaks volumes about your character.

I never refer to "all" of any group. But when a person's mind and body don't agree, it is usually the mind that requires treatment. So call any names you wish. I understand the difficult position of your argument and the need to cling to some type of defense. Even if it is childish.

As for the prostate cancer. Just so you realize. if a man with prostate cancer were to deny treatment because they believe they are a woman and therefore can't have prostate cancer...that person has a mental problem. Any court would uphold that for their own well being.

They are transgendered, not oblivious to their own anatomy. If anything, they are painfully aware of their anatomy....

a reply to: jjsr420

We do understand more about the brain now than we did before. But there is so much we still don't understand. You quote a couple studies that show similarities between the physical construct of the brains of one gender and similar constructs in those who experience that gender. These constructs are more pronounced after hormone treatment. No kidding. That is the purpose of the hormone treatment - to change the body. My original observation is unchanged. There is no proof that these physical differences result in gender dysphoria. It may be that gender dysphoria is responsible for the changes in brain structure and function. If that is the case, it can be argued that it is not functioning as it should. None of the statements in either quoted reference stated that all tested people were the same. Some to a greater degree than others, and I am sure some not at all, some probably the opposite.

You are very quick to accept this information as absolute. I am not. I need more proof. I need something that fits more than just some of the people tested. I want to see a direct cause and effect. Then I will believe. I want to see, "Males with this structure will identify as female." Not, "We tested a bunch of men who already identified as female and noticed some of them have things in common with women."

Is the structure of the body the cause of the behavior or is the behavior altering the structure of the body?

Of course, "we" read one or two studies then yell Eureka! Not.

I've been reading/researching, following LGB information for about 25 years.

I've been reading/researching, following Transgender information for about 10 years.

I say "no one knows better then a person who is actually transgender" (or Gender Dysphoric). I believe them.

And I believe the professionals specializing in the field of Gender Dysphoria.

I've watched the evolution of this over the past 10 years.

ANY medical professional should, by now, understand the situation and needs of transgender patients.

originally posted by: jjsr420
a reply to: samerulesapply

Obviously you didn't get the example that people can teach themselves skills, and be just a proficient as someone who went to college. And actually, to study the brains of these people, all you -really- need are the BRAIN SCANS. Fairly simple concept to understand. Still waiting on you to back up your claim.

And you run a medical clinic our of your garage? Do you really think you can compare yourself to a degreed physician in any way in terms of the practice of medicine? Including reading x-rays and mri's? Really?

a reply to: Annee

Well, 25 years is a long time. I don't know exactly what you mean when you say reading/researching... Is it something you did 8 hours a day 5 days a week? Or was it something you did in your spare time over the years? As a professional pool player I learned a long time ago that its not how many years a person has played that matters, it how many hours a day.

Now I guess is a good time to play my Trump card. (no pun intended)

I have studied psych, both in school and on my own, and I was engaged to and lived with a woman who had her masters in child'/adolescent psych and had more than 25 years of experience in psych hospitals. We talked at great length about this subject on many occasions. Her son was gay. We spoke at great length about this many times. One thing she said to me still remains firmly entrenched in my mind and always will. She said one of the first things she learned to do in the field was to identify which kids were really trapped in the wrong body and which ones wanted to be. By far, according to the professional, the ones who just wanted to be different outnumbered the ones who actually were. That is an issue of its own. But for the people who truly are in the wrong body, however that happens, it is real. And I asked if that meant everything was ok or did it mean that there were synapses not firing when they were supposed to. Her response was simple - "we don't know."

Its like trying to explain what 'normal' is. You cant. Its like trying to explain what childbirth feels like to a man. Even if you described it perfectly, even if he experienced the equivalent pain, there is no way he could ever know. He could only imagine that it was the same or that he understands it. And even then, he would only understand it from a man's perspective, not a woman's. My point is that you can find similarities all over the place. Similar does not mean the same. It means similar. Having things in common. We all have things in common. How similar we are is dependent on how fine a grading scale you want to use. In this case, the scale should be as finite and exact as possible. And every single difference should be noted because it is important. In this case it is not how many things we can find in common, but how many ways we are different that make the final determination. Different is exactly that - different.

BTW - my willingness to challenge the voracity of the arguments does not mean I am intolerant. It is not a matter of being intolerant. It is more a matter of how tolerant someone can be and how much is expected of them. When does the expectation become intrusive and as such, a form of intolerance itself?

Peace.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
a reply to: Annee

Well, 25 years is a long time. I don't know exactly what you mean when you say reading/researching... Is it something you did 8 hours a day 5 days a week? Or was it something you did in your spare time over the years?

Hubby and I owned a business. My main job was to talk to customers, phone and in person. The rest of the time I "surfed". A lot of stuff, not just LGBT. My interest in LGBT was because I worked at a place where I was the minority being a straight female.

Read most of the rest of your post. I'm in the middle of something, so short post.

I do appreciate you have an open mind. And that you're interested in real information.

Not to put your former down, she does sound qualified. But, degrees are only as good as the person behind them. Anything she says would need to be compared to what others say IMO.

This subject is evolving in understanding, mostly in the last 10 years. There is a shortage of qualified professionals in this area.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

If it was a she, she wouldn't have prostate cancer thou.

originally posted by: Annee
...
I say "no one knows better then a person who is actually transgender" (or Gender Dysphoric). I believe them.

And I believe the professionals specializing in the field of Gender Dysphoria.

I've watched the evolution of this over the past 10 years.

ANY medical professional should, by now, understand the situation and needs of transgender patients.

Err, you have gone so far in the past as to deny what former transgenders have to say, and you don't want to believe them and their experiences. Instead you want to chastise them and ignore their statements such as your responses about Walt Heyer, a person who was transgender and went through a sex exchange to later understand that it was all in his head and wanted to be a man again.

Link

You even tried to deny his comments about LGBT programs not only trampling parents rights, but also puting kids at risk.

Public School LGBT Programs Don't Just Trample Parental Rights. They Also Put Kids at Risk.
by Walt Heyer
within Education, Marriage, Sexuality

June 8th, 2015

No matter what well-intentioned teachers and administrators believe, LGBT acceptance programs designed by GLSEN and funded by the CDC are designed to encourage kids to question their gender identity and sexual orientation.

Through his executive appointments, President Obama has helped expose American schoolchildren to activism that places them at risk.

On May 19, 2009, a few short months after his inauguration, Obama gave the green light to Secretary of Education Arne Duncan to appoint Kevin Jennings to a top position to influence school policy: the post of Assistant Deputy Secretary for the Office of Safe and Drug-Free Schools, also known as the “safe schools czar.” Jennings, a powerful LGBT rights activist who is himself a gay man, was the founder of the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network (GLSEN). GLSEN is one of the largest LGBT activist organizations in the nation and is devoted to promoting homosexuality in K-12 schools. Jennings served as “safe schools czar” from 2009-2011.
...

www.thepublicdiscourse.com...

Or wanting to ignore these people.

A transsexual living in Mersin who underwent surgery to become a woman has requested a change in regulations so that she can return to being a man by having a penis reattached to her body.

'I was a boy.. then a girl.. now I want to be a boy again': Agony of teen who is Britain's youngest sex-swap patient

Three former patients of Australia's controversial sex-change clinic say misdiagnosis and wrongful surgery destroyed their lives. Jill Stark reports.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Dude, we have nothing to say to each other.

You can take it somewhere else.

a reply to: Annee

And there you go...

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
She said one of the first things she learned to do in the field was to identify which kids were really trapped in the wrong body and which ones wanted to be. By far, according to the professional, the ones who just wanted to be different outnumbered the ones who actually were. That is an issue of its own. But for the people who truly are in the wrong body, however that happens, it is real. And I asked if that meant everything was ok or did it mean that there were synapses not firing when they were supposed to. Her response was simple - "we don't know."

I have found your previous comments in this thread rather antagonistic, however this statement is reasonably accurate although this "trapped in the wrong body" trope can't die soon enough in my opinion. It is hard to find the right words to explain the trans experience to non-trans people, practically impossible in fact, but realize this "trapped" meme is a complete dumbing down to a cisgender level of understanding. Born with parts incompatible with the rest of my life and who I am as a person was far more descriptive of my experience.

I have never been "trapped in the wrong body". This body is mine, always has been and always will be but it did need a few aftermarket modifications to better fit the occupant. I have no delusions of being a natal female and am completely cognizant of the facts regarding my biology, anatomy and medical history but as I have lived 43 of my 61 years invisibly as such and am outwardly female physically and sexually and enjoy cisgender status and privilege, hidden cell structures and residual atrophied internal glands mean absolutely nothing to me in my day-to-day life except when dealing with medical professionals and my unique health care needs.

Some people, mostly those looking for an explanation or concrete evidence are concerned with the whys and the science and brain scans and the peer reviewed papers but from the perspective of someone that has never known a single second of their whole entire life of not being this way, none of this matters whatsoever to me. I've said many times, I don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. I have never questioned, been confused or doubted my gender nor has my personality, identity or sense of self as far as being a girl/woman ever been any different than it is today. (which really othered me as a child and sucked and why things needed corrected)

Science and crap and charts and graphs do absolutely nothing to capture or explain the spiritual, psychic or metaphysical nature of the whole thing but the papers and research are handy and may be comforting or helpful to others grasping to understand something they never will. Dueling links do seem to make good cannon fodder for ATS discussions though since people seem to discount first-hand evidence as anecdotal.

Sure, I have a whole library of research and books and links and 50 years of having my ear to the wind reading about this subject from when I first found something in a dictionary as a child to put words to my feelings beyond the simple phrase "I am not a boy" but I have never needed books or words or science to justify something inherently innate to my personality and emotional makeup that just was or is and which is absolutely no different than your in-born sense of who and what you are. Yes, this is a real thing and I've a lifetime of lived experience as witness to that fact.

I can't really say I know what point you were trying to make with the rest of your post. The only expectations I or any person of similar nature have is to be treated with respect, dignity and humanity.

(Sorry for this wine infused, sleep deprived ramble)

a reply to: ElectricUniverse
Like Annee, I also have nothing further to say to you that hasn't already been said.

And there you go...

originally posted by: Freija
Science and crap and charts and graphs do absolutely nothing to capture or explain the spiritual, psychic or metaphysical nature of the whole thing but the papers and research are handy and may be comforting or helpful to others grasping to understand something they never will.

So to confirm, you want to take this to a spritiual, physic and/or metaphysical discussion? Because that will open a whole 'nother can of worms.

I'd prefer to keep it in the science/biology realm, because it all boils down to how our brains interpret the world around us *and* we don't have to argue our own perspectives on the spiritual.

Our paradigms are forged based on what our brains receive in feedback from the rest of our body. And if the rest of our body is 'broken' (ie color blind, deaf, etc) or if the brain is wired wrong then we are going to have an abnormal perspective on the world and/or ourselves.

I think you said it best with "my day-to-day life except when dealing with medical professionals and my unique health care needs," because you are an individual. Your outlook on life is completely different from any other person on the planet. I feel safe saying that no other person claiming to be transgender feels the same about themselves as you do about yourself. And there is nothing wrong with that. We are all individuals trying to get along with everyone else and make it through another day. And for the most part we do without any 'help' from government.

My problem is when central planning tells steps in and over-corrects a problem that really isn't a problem, and brings the bludgeon hammer of government, civil rights, and regulation into the mix.

a reply to: Teikiatsu

I'm sorry... you have prostate cancer but you think you are a woman. Therefore your doctor may not be able to treat you or refer you to a men's health specialist. Not without threat of being sued, anyway...

While I think your example is a good one; could the doctor just conclude that the swollen-cancerous prostate was an indication of "her" being pregnant? This would seem to be a simple "misdiagnosis" when they hold the funeral.