Senate blocks gun measures offered in wake of Orlando shooting

originally posted by: Liquesence

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

Quoting myself:

I do know that *some* people are put on watch lists for arbitrary reasons.

I also know that many people are put on watch lists for damn good reasons.

And asking, again:

anyone on a watch list should be able to buy any weapon unless they have had that right denied due to due process, even if they are a suspected terrorist?

Keyword: anyone.

How does that infringe on your 2nd amendment right?

When your right to due process is infringed, then all your rights have been infringed. There, that should answer all your questions. IF it still doesn't then you might want to drop your head on a rock

Has your right to due process been infringed?

Not yet that I'm aware of, but those in congress appear to be trying very hard to do that. You better hope they don't do it to anyone without due process, because if they do, then they will do it to you as well. Somehow I don't see you understanding what an error that would be, and could be. Those willing to give up liberty for a promised safety deserve neither liberty, or safety.

a reply to: CB328

Then you are hearing it wrong through your political colored glasses. We are saying citizens, require due process to have a right stripped from them. Anything short of that is unconstitutional. How/where you get your ideas I do not understand.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

Not yet that I'm aware of, but

Thank you.

Senate blocks gun measures offered in wake of Orlando shooting

Another battle the antigunners have waged an lost.

I hope they continue to make it a national issue.

For eight YEARS they have been pushing this TRIPE.

Only to get shot down for the pun.

There is one sure fire way to lose the national election.

Keep pushing Gun control 'liberals'.

originally posted by: Liquesence

Has your right to due process been infringed?

Can someone denied buying a gun because of a bad background check challenge that in court?

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

Not yet that I'm aware of, but

Thank you.

And when you lose them, because you were willing to stand aside and allow it?

originally posted by: Krakatoa
a reply to: thenightisours

However, I do feel if you are on a terrorist watch list or no fly list, you should not be allowed to buy any type of fire arm until they are fully vetted and are given a green light by the FBI.

As long as due process was followed to get on that list, right? Otherwise, it is wholly unconstitutional....right?

I agree with you 100%. Yes

a reply to: thenightisours

I wanted to verify because at the moment, there is no due process involved to get on any of these lists. So, saying if you are on a list you should be prevented from owning a firearm (without stating that changes to the process are needed first) would be construed supporting the violation of multiple constitutional amendments.

Thanks for clarifying.

a reply to: Liquesence

maybe it would help if you actually knew the definition of "infringe" google it.

to save you time i`ll post it here for you.

act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on.

so, in referrence to the 2nd amendment ANY law or executive order that acts so as to limit gun ownership is unconstitutional.
ANY law or executive order that acts as to undermine or encroach on gun ownership is unconstitutional.
The founding fathers clearly stated "SHALL NOT INFRINGE"

To make the the point perfectly clear, ANY law, executive order etc that limits, impedes, encroaches, undermines, ect of gun ownership IS unconstitutional.

The founding fathers couldn`t have been more clear that they want the government to be completely hands off, and have no say in who can own guns and what kind of guns people can own.

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: lostbook

originally posted by: Krakatoa
a reply to: lostbook

Make it required that to be put on that list in the first place, the feds need to go through a judicial review and due process. Anything less is a violation of the United States Constitution. The Senate Dems just voted that detail down today. Ask them why....

I'm not denying anyone's right to own a gun if they want to. However, you can't have a gun with you everywhere you go; alert and ready to shoot at a moments notice all of the time. Who wants to live like that?

More guns isn't the answer. These mass casualty, gun events happen without rhyme or reason and you can't protect everywhere-all the time. We need to be pro-active and not re-active.

by not requiring complete due process to be put on that list, and an equivalent process to be removed, yes, you are asking for every citizen to give up their rights at the whim of some desk jockey in the government. Laws are supposed to apply EQUALLY to every citizen....right? So, that means without due process, you could be added to that list, and all of a sudden your rights are now stripped. How do you fight it? Who put you on the list? Why were you put on the list? See, without due process, all those questions mean you are guilty and need to prove your innocence.

That is not how our judicial system is supposed to work under the constitution.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not actually UNDERSTAND that fact?????

So, you want to give terrorists and other crazies due process just so it doesn't make you feel un-easy about your rights to own a gun? I'm not asking for every citizen to give up their rights, I'm only asking that we approach this problem the right way. I believe the right way is to investigate mental health issue in this country.

Remember, I said let's be pro-active not re-active on this gun issue. Why do you have an issue with not allowing people on no-fly lists or terrorists to have a gun? Of course they can get them illegally anyway but at least it's a start.

originally posted by: lostbook

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: lostbook

originally posted by: Krakatoa
a reply to: lostbook

Make it required that to be put on that list in the first place, the feds need to go through a judicial review and due process. Anything less is a violation of the United States Constitution. The Senate Dems just voted that detail down today. Ask them why....

I'm not denying anyone's right to own a gun if they want to. However, you can't have a gun with you everywhere you go; alert and ready to shoot at a moments notice all of the time. Who wants to live like that?

More guns isn't the answer. These mass casualty, gun events happen without rhyme or reason and you can't protect everywhere-all the time. We need to be pro-active and not re-active.

by not requiring complete due process to be put on that list, and an equivalent process to be removed, yes, you are asking for every citizen to give up their rights at the whim of some desk jockey in the government. Laws are supposed to apply EQUALLY to every citizen....right? So, that means without due process, you could be added to that list, and all of a sudden your rights are now stripped. How do you fight it? Who put you on the list? Why were you put on the list? See, without due process, all those questions mean you are guilty and need to prove your innocence.

That is not how our judicial system is supposed to work under the constitution.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not actually UNDERSTAND that fact?????

So, you want to give terrorists and other crazies due process just so it doesn't make you feel un-easy about your rights to own a gun? I'm not asking for every citizen to give up their rights, I'm only asking that we approach this problem the right way. I believe the right way is to investigate mental health issue in this country.

Remember, I said let's be pro-active not re-active on this gun issue. Why do you have an issue with not allowing people on no-fly lists or terrorists to have a gun? Of course they can get them illegally anyway but at least it's a start.

If they are United States citizens, they DESERVE due process, just like you and I do. If, after being found guilty of a felony crime (or failing a background check which includes that) then due process has been served. Tossing out due process for suspicion of maybe doing something is so unconstitutional it is not funny. And you advocate that here? Who declares them "terrorists"? What is the criteria? Can someone be labeled a terrorist of they do not break the law? Just because we "want to" does not men we can willy-nilly throw out our laws to speed things up because you are impatient.

Due process is required for ALL citizens....innocent until proven guilty right? Or is it unless it takes too long?

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: lostbook

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: lostbook

originally posted by: Krakatoa
a reply to: lostbook

Make it required that to be put on that list in the first place, the feds need to go through a judicial review and due process. Anything less is a violation of the United States Constitution. The Senate Dems just voted that detail down today. Ask them why....

I'm not denying anyone's right to own a gun if they want to. However, you can't have a gun with you everywhere you go; alert and ready to shoot at a moments notice all of the time. Who wants to live like that?

More guns isn't the answer. These mass casualty, gun events happen without rhyme or reason and you can't protect everywhere-all the time. We need to be pro-active and not re-active.

by not requiring complete due process to be put on that list, and an equivalent process to be removed, yes, you are asking for every citizen to give up their rights at the whim of some desk jockey in the government. Laws are supposed to apply EQUALLY to every citizen....right? So, that means without due process, you could be added to that list, and all of a sudden your rights are now stripped. How do you fight it? Who put you on the list? Why were you put on the list? See, without due process, all those questions mean you are guilty and need to prove your innocence.

That is not how our judicial system is supposed to work under the constitution.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not actually UNDERSTAND that fact?????

So, you want to give terrorists and other crazies due process just so it doesn't make you feel un-easy about your rights to own a gun? I'm not asking for every citizen to give up their rights, I'm only asking that we approach this problem the right way. I believe the right way is to investigate mental health issue in this country.

Remember, I said let's be pro-active not re-active on this gun issue. Why do you have an issue with not allowing people on no-fly lists or terrorists to have a gun? Of course they can get them illegally anyway but at least it's a start.

If they are United States citizens, they DESERVE due process, just like you and I do. If, after being found guilty of a felony crime (or failing a background check which includes that) then due process has been served. Tossing out due process for suspicion of maybe doing something is so unconstitutional it is not funny. And you advocate that here? Who declares them "terrorists"? What is the criteria? Can someone be labeled a terrorist of they do not break the law? Just because we "want to" does not men we can willy-nilly throw out our laws to speed things up because you are impatient.

Due process is required for ALL citizens....innocent until proven guilty right? Or is it unless it takes too long?

Agreed. CITIZENS deserve Due Process but the laws in question are for Terrorists and people on no-fly lists....whom I assume aren't citizens or citizens who aren't in good standing with the law. I didn't see anywhere in the O.P. where it stated CITIZENS would be denied due process and that isn't what I said either.

Due process has nothing to do with the Mental Health issues in this country. It's a totally separate issue. That's the angle I want to debate.

originally posted by: lostbook

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: lostbook

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: lostbook

originally posted by: Krakatoa
a reply to: lostbook

Make it required that to be put on that list in the first place, the feds need to go through a judicial review and due process. Anything less is a violation of the United States Constitution. The Senate Dems just voted that detail down today. Ask them why....

I'm not denying anyone's right to own a gun if they want to. However, you can't have a gun with you everywhere you go; alert and ready to shoot at a moments notice all of the time. Who wants to live like that?

More guns isn't the answer. These mass casualty, gun events happen without rhyme or reason and you can't protect everywhere-all the time. We need to be pro-active and not re-active.

by not requiring complete due process to be put on that list, and an equivalent process to be removed, yes, you are asking for every citizen to give up their rights at the whim of some desk jockey in the government. Laws are supposed to apply EQUALLY to every citizen....right? So, that means without due process, you could be added to that list, and all of a sudden your rights are now stripped. How do you fight it? Who put you on the list? Why were you put on the list? See, without due process, all those questions mean you are guilty and need to prove your innocence.

That is not how our judicial system is supposed to work under the constitution.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not actually UNDERSTAND that fact?????

So, you want to give terrorists and other crazies due process just so it doesn't make you feel un-easy about your rights to own a gun? I'm not asking for every citizen to give up their rights, I'm only asking that we approach this problem the right way. I believe the right way is to investigate mental health issue in this country.

Remember, I said let's be pro-active not re-active on this gun issue. Why do you have an issue with not allowing people on no-fly lists or terrorists to have a gun? Of course they can get them illegally anyway but at least it's a start.

If they are United States citizens, they DESERVE due process, just like you and I do. If, after being found guilty of a felony crime (or failing a background check which includes that) then due process has been served. Tossing out due process for suspicion of maybe doing something is so unconstitutional it is not funny. And you advocate that here? Who declares them "terrorists"? What is the criteria? Can someone be labeled a terrorist of they do not break the law? Just because we "want to" does not men we can willy-nilly throw out our laws to speed things up because you are impatient.

Due process is required for ALL citizens....innocent until proven guilty right? Or is it unless it takes too long?

Agreed. CITIZENS deserve Due Process but the laws in question are for Terrorists and people on no-fly lists....whom I assume aren't citizens or citizens who aren't in good standing with the law. I didn't see anywhere in the O.P. where it stated CITIZENS would be denied due process and that isn't what I said either.

Due process has nothing to do with the Mental Health issues in this country. It's a totally separate issue. That's the angle I want to debate.

Are you aware that it having your name put on one of those lists does NOT (I repeat, does not) require due process. Therefore, those who find themselves on the list cannot have their rights stripped until due process has been achieved. Right now, that is not the case. Until the process to put names on these lists goes through a judicial review and due process, then that has no direct bearing on whether U.S. citizens on that list can own any firearms. That is the problem with the lists. IT only takes some federal pencil pusher to type your name into this list...no oversight, no judge, no warrant, nothing. Is that what you are advocating be the basis for stripping someone of their rights?

a reply to: Liquesence

Any firearm restriction, any firearm ban and any background check infringes on every citizens right to keep and bear arms!
It's always been so simple, murder is and will always be illegal.

Harsh criminal punishment combined with an armed society is key.

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: lostbook

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: lostbook

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: lostbook

originally posted by: Krakatoa
a reply to: lostbook

Make it required that to be put on that list in the first place, the feds need to go through a judicial review and due process. Anything less is a violation of the United States Constitution. The Senate Dems just voted that detail down today. Ask them why....

I'm not denying anyone's right to own a gun if they want to. However, you can't have a gun with you everywhere you go; alert and ready to shoot at a moments notice all of the time. Who wants to live like that?

More guns isn't the answer. These mass casualty, gun events happen without rhyme or reason and you can't protect everywhere-all the time. We need to be pro-active and not re-active.

by not requiring complete due process to be put on that list, and an equivalent process to be removed, yes, you are asking for every citizen to give up their rights at the whim of some desk jockey in the government. Laws are supposed to apply EQUALLY to every citizen....right? So, that means without due process, you could be added to that list, and all of a sudden your rights are now stripped. How do you fight it? Who put you on the list? Why were you put on the list? See, without due process, all those questions mean you are guilty and need to prove your innocence.

That is not how our judicial system is supposed to work under the constitution.

Why do seemingly intelligent people not actually UNDERSTAND that fact?????

So, you want to give terrorists and other crazies due process just so it doesn't make you feel un-easy about your rights to own a gun? I'm not asking for every citizen to give up their rights, I'm only asking that we approach this problem the right way. I believe the right way is to investigate mental health issue in this country.

Remember, I said let's be pro-active not re-active on this gun issue. Why do you have an issue with not allowing people on no-fly lists or terrorists to have a gun? Of course they can get them illegally anyway but at least it's a start.

If they are United States citizens, they DESERVE due process, just like you and I do. If, after being found guilty of a felony crime (or failing a background check which includes that) then due process has been served. Tossing out due process for suspicion of maybe doing something is so unconstitutional it is not funny. And you advocate that here? Who declares them "terrorists"? What is the criteria? Can someone be labeled a terrorist of they do not break the law? Just because we "want to" does not men we can willy-nilly throw out our laws to speed things up because you are impatient.

Due process is required for ALL citizens....innocent until proven guilty right? Or is it unless it takes too long?

Agreed. CITIZENS deserve Due Process but the laws in question are for Terrorists and people on no-fly lists....whom I assume aren't citizens or citizens who aren't in good standing with the law. I didn't see anywhere in the O.P. where it stated CITIZENS would be denied due process and that isn't what I said either.

Due process has nothing to do with the Mental Health issues in this country. It's a totally separate issue. That's the angle I want to debate.

Are you aware that it having your name put on one of those lists does NOT (I repeat, does not) require due process. Therefore, those who find themselves on the list cannot have their rights stripped until due process has been achieved. Right now, that is not the case. Until the process to put names on these lists goes through a judicial review and due process, then that has no direct bearing on whether U.S. citizens on that list can own any firearms. That is the problem with the lists. IT only takes some federal pencil pusher to type your name into this list...no oversight, no judge, no warrant, nothing. Is that what you are advocating be the basis for stripping someone of their rights?

What's the issue with these lists you speak of...? I work, pay taxes, and go home. If I'm on any lists, it's not stopping me from being free and I don't worry about lists or big brother. I'm not advocating stripping people of their rights; namely, citizens. I do support taking guns away from terrorists, people on no-fly lists, and people with Mental Health Issues....

a reply to: watchitburn

I'm just tired of political BS piggy backing on tragedy. Focus on the real issues...people with religious/mental instability that think killing will change anything.

The US is really just teething on religious fanaticism. It has been going on for centuries and people act like it is something new. The US is one of the youngest countries in the world and just hasn't dealt with it on this level before.

Personally I'm not worried...just don't come to my door peddling your religious BS and I bet we will both live.

Well, we all saw that coming!!

So, let's say me and my buddies decide to get together and form the "Cool Bros AR 15 Shooting Club." Government slug sees our recruiting ad, (because we want more Bros to join us,) and he types into his computer, "Cool Bros AR 15 Shooting Club" is dangerous and could possibly be radicalized and mount an attack on Washington if the government bans those horribly scary black rifles. Therefore, the Cool Bros AR 15 Shooting Club is now officially considered a terrorist organization." And there went your rights.

Don't think it's farfetched. Several progressives have already called several perfectly legal patriotic organizations who buck the system, terrorist groups.

nvm... Ill make a new thread.

Remember, the late Senator Ted Kennedy was on the 'no-fly' list.

Really.