UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

originally posted by: berenike
a reply to: bigyin

Saving myself money isn't really something I'd take as an incentive to stay in the EU.

Besides sovereignty, there is the issue of the quality of life.

Anyway, as one of the proles, I've already been screwed financially. Taxes, low interest rates, ever receding-into-the-distance pensions, who hasn't been?

I've just learnt to economise and enjoy things in life that cost little or no money.

It is my belief that most people are concerned about immigration, current impacts on public services, housing and jobs. Also NHS queues and decisions being made in Brussels of which we have no control. I think that the IN campaign aren't in touch with what folk are really concerned about or they are and are avoiding the issues because they don't have any good things to say so may make things worse.

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: Freeborn

The fact is, the world is completely different nowadays. If you aren't part of a block, nations can simply ride over you.

The Leave camp keeps touting Canada as an example - well Canada is fully signed up to NAFTA. The areas they are not signed up to (and which the Leave camp use as an example of how we could thrive) are in commodities such as Uranium and Tar Oils - neither of which are subject to Global Tariffs. We do not have those to offer, so it is a completely false analogy. Australia ia also frequently touted as an example - all i will say is that people should read the myriad of articles in both the Economist and also the Financial Times as to why this is not the case. They set the case out clearly (far better than i could) and with no bias - they simply state the facts. Suffice to say, none of the examples touted are comparable to Britain and none of them are anywhere near as sweet now as they seemed at the time. But, like i say, don't take my word for it - those interested should read the articles themselves.

The thing people keep touting is how we would "regain" our sovereignty. That is all very well, but we would be adrift in a world not necessarily against us but certainly one that will not be wishing to do us any favours. For example, future trade deals would be negatively impacted: imagine the EU was renegotiating with Nissan over car plants - if we leave, these deals would not have to pay any interest in how that affects car manufacturing in the UK. Now, as part of the EU, this has to be taken into consideration.

The EU may have many many problems but you don't solve those by throwing your toys out of the pram. You solve them by negotiation. In diplomatic terms alone, if we leave the world (not just the EU) will take a long time to forgive us. And our clout will be almost non existent.

All that said, i don't really know why i keep dipping into this thread (and that is not a pop aimed at the OP). Everyone on here already has their mind made up so it is completely pointless to keep trying to change your minds!

I don't think its about throwing the toys or dummy out of the cot. Its about the quality of live for the British people and they have a right to determine what maintains or improves it! What the people have to decide is whether its IN or OUT that does! And to be honest the majority appear to think that getting out of the EU will put the brakes on what is negatively affecting their quality of life and see self governance as a means to help improve it.

originally posted by: CJCrawley
a reply to: Freeborn

What we don't want is political union and the transfer of sovereignty to Brussels.

It seems to be counter to the trend seen particularly in the US - the dislike of big government and government interference in people's lives.

Even Cameron doesn't want political union but, naïvely, believes he can negotiate to avoid it and to keep the pound.

Cameron and the elite want to remain in the EU club because there is a bigger hidden picture at play here and it ties into the direction that TPTB want to take us toward a OWG.

originally posted by: Morrad
Something I read today got me thinking. We are being told that basically, we are nothing without the EU and that our future depends on it, ie we are small and delicate and will struggle on our own. We also have the IMF saying a Brexit would deal a blow to global economics.

It has to be one or the other. We are either significant or insignificant. It can't be both.

We weren't nothing before we joined the EU so what's the difference if we leave? The IMF are worried because they know we don't need the EU like the EU needs the UK. We don't need to be in a club to continue to trade as before. So many nations aren't in clubs and they trade quite effectively.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: bigyin

No, you appear to be the one who is dense...do you not understand majority vote?
Scotland would be #ed, and you know it.

Who do you think are dense the IN crowd or the OUT crowd or neither?
If we vote to stay we will not know what OUT looked liked until the EU goes tits up and we kinda find out. But if we OUT and it goes ok and then the EU goes tits up wont we will be insulated from it?

originally posted by: woogleuk

originally posted by: eletheia
We will all be little Europeans.

Cumbrian until I die marra! No pig porking tax dodging bureaucrat anywhere will take that away from me.

So you are voting out are you? How about the people you know in your area, what are the majority saying and why?

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Morrad
David Miliband saying that Brexit is political arson and no world leader would celebrate us leaving except for dear old Vlad, le Pen and possibly Trump. I think he is just a mouth-piece for Hilary Clinton as their close friendship develops and talk of him being given a position in her potential administration.

Why Brexit would be nothing less than an act of political arson

"Dodgy Dave" ... you made my day Dennis Skinner

Whenever you hear a politician try to associate leaving with Putin and Le Pen (or Trump) you know they have lost all rationale arguments. They are now trying to win by negative association.

To ANYONE considering voting yes, you owe it yourself to watch the video above, research the points and share with the people you know and ask them to share. Britain is on the verge of of being conquered, losing the protection afforded to us by the Magna Carta. The last time we were in this much peril was in the dark days of WWII.

What are the people you know in your area saying i.e. the issues for them? What are the majority voting?

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Did Vote.Leave get back to you about the £350million figure?

Guardian is reporting the misleading/incorrect figures now...
www.theguardian.com...

Why are people going to believe anything Vote.Leave says when their most biggest claim is WRONG?

originally posted by: 83Liberty
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Did Vote.Leave get back to you about the £350million figure?

Guardian is reporting the misleading/incorrect figures now...
www.theguardian.com...

Why are people going to believe anything Vote.Leave says when their most biggest claim is WRONG?

Not yet and I asked them again today for a reply clarifying the figures......still waiting

From David Owen Vote Leave


Outside the EU, Britain will be a STRONGER partner for America
David Owen

Dear Friend,

When I was Foreign Secretary I worked with Europe and America. I understand the value of both to Britain - together we form the Western alliance which is responsible for the world's peace and prosperity.

Today a European Union of 28 member states isn’t working, and the Eurozone is in crisis. President Obama has tried to persuade the EU to reform. So has David Cameron. Both have failed.

In every international crisis since the Balkans, the EU has shown itself to be disunited, indecisive and weak. On every occasion it has fallen to NATO - in which Britain plays a leading role - to provide the answers to these challenges and deliver the security we need.

Outside the EU, Britain will continue to lead in NATO and will retain a permanent seat on the UN's Security Council. We will be Europe's pre-eminent intelligence and military power and an even stronger partner for our friends.

I understand that President Obama feels bound to help David Cameron but this is a decision for the British people, and no-one else. And this is a vote that we must win.

We must win in order to better defend our allies and our values around the world.

Thank you for your support,

David Owen



We send £350 million to the EU every week. After we Vote Leave we can spend this money on our priorities.


Vote Leave · Vote Leave, Westminster Tower, 3 Albert Embankment, Lambeth SE1 7SP, United Kingdom
This email was sent to [*snip*. To stop receiving emails, click here.

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

I see on VoteLeave website it says:

The UK's official EU budget is about £350 million a week. That’s about the same as the cost of building a new NHS hospital every week. We get less than half of this money back, and we have no control over how it’s spent – that’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels, not the people we elect here.

That's a correct statement now.

You're showing your email address on your last post by the way.

originally posted by: 83Liberty
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

I see on VoteLeave website it says:

The UK's official EU budget is about £350 million a week. That’s about the same as the cost of building a new NHS hospital every week. We get less than half of this money back, and we have no control over how it’s spent – that’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels, not the people we elect here.

That's a correct statement now.

You're showing your email address on your last post by the way.

Thanks for the heads up.
So I guess we prompted the correction.

Whats your thought on www.pollstation.uk... vote? Now running at over 27000 votes and 79% leave?

Just heard Obama make the following statement when talking about the EU. He says "you had better try and fix the broken relationship with the EU before you break it off"

Well haven't we been trying that for years and didn't Cameron try recently and fail miserably? So isn't Obama suggesting that if you can't fix it then break it off.

Now i am not making any particular statement with this, i simply found it interesting and thought to share......

Guardian link

It is, in essence, a breakdown of EU support amongst the generations (UK only) and which areas / people are more likely to vote remain / leave.

In short, the under 35's are overwhelmingly in favour of voting "remain". In addition, those towns with greater numbers of under and post graduates are also more likely to vote "remain".

originally posted by: Flavian
In short, the under 35's are overwhelmingly in favour of voting "remain". In addition, those towns with greater numbers of under and post graduates are also more likely to vote "remain".

Makes perfect sense to me. Everything that happened in the past is coloured by positive emotions. According to Alan R. Hirsch in his report, “Nostalgia: A Neuropsychiatric Understanding,” nostalgia is a yearning for an idealized past — “a longing for a sanitized impression of the past, what in psychoanalysis is referred to as a screen memory — not a true recreation of the past, but rather a combination of many different memories, all integrated together, and in the process all negative emotions filtered out.” (source)

The old geezers really think that the Empire can be resurrected. They forgot all about the poverty, strikes and wars..

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Is that the "gang of four" David Owen? One of four moderate Labour MPs who broke away to form the Liberal Democrats because of Labour's anti-EU stance of the early 1980s?

I'm glad he's backing Brexit but I wish he'd make his mind up...

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: Flavian
In short, the under 35's are overwhelmingly in favour of voting "remain". In addition, those towns with greater numbers of under and post graduates are also more likely to vote "remain".

Makes perfect sense to me. Everything that happened in the past is coloured by positive emotions. According to Alan R. Hirsch in his report, “Nostalgia: A Neuropsychiatric Understanding,” nostalgia is a yearning for an idealized past — “a longing for a sanitized impression of the past, what in psychoanalysis is referred to as a screen memory — not a true recreation of the past, but rather a combination of many different memories, all integrated together, and in the process all negative emotions filtered out.” (source)

The old geezers really think that the Empire can be resurrected. They forgot all about the poverty, strikes and wars..

With all due respect that is rubbish. I am a staunch anti empire advocate and I am 55 years of age. I am not against the EU because I believe in a British empire but what I don't agree with is laws being passed in Brussels that we have little say in. Nor do I wish to see any more immigrants enter the UK. Can't you imagine the future problems in the UK if we remain. You underestimate the young and their ability to see through the bull.
Across my extended family of all ages and persuasions and varying education levels the vote is approx. 60% OUT.
We are leaving the EU so I would get used to it!

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: bigyin

No, you appear to be the one who is dense...do you not understand majority vote?
Scotland would be #ed, and you know it.

Who do you think are dense the IN crowd or the OUT crowd or neither?
If we vote to stay we will not know what OUT looked liked until the EU goes tits up and we kinda find out. But if we OUT and it goes ok and then the EU goes tits up wont we will be insulated from it?

Too many unknowns for me to forecast. so I won't.
I'm voting out for idealogical supremacy of state and sovereignty reasons, I want the ruling buildings of the UK to be in the UK. I want the people who 'represent' us in those buildings to be in the UK.

I am expecting challenges either way, but I want to face those challenges in a sovereign UK, just like every other country in the world which is not in a political union.

Listening to Obama respond to a reporters question about giving up sovereignty and whether the US would do it? The term Hypocrite was used!
Also Obama has now just threatened us with putting us at the back of the queue with regards to the US if we leave the EU.

How can he stick his nose in and then threaten us. He can FO.

Mr change no change is full of verbal poop.

Disgraceful tactics.

Who's Cameron going to drag in next.............Assad? Its all threats and fear with very little concrete substantiated fact!

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: bigyin

No, you appear to be the one who is dense...do you not understand majority vote?
Scotland would be #ed, and you know it.

Who do you think are dense the IN crowd or the OUT crowd or neither?
If we vote to stay we will not know what OUT looked liked until the EU goes tits up and we kinda find out. But if we OUT and it goes ok and then the EU goes tits up wont we will be insulated from it?

Too many unknowns for me to forecast. so I won't.
I'm voting out for idealogical supremacy of state and sovereignty reasons, I want the ruling buildings of the UK to be in the UK. I want the people who 'represent' us in those buildings to be in the UK.

I am expecting challenges either way, but I want to face those challenges in a sovereign UK, just like every other country in the world which is not in a political union.

Fair comment. We all have our reasons. mine is sovereignty and immigration + public services.