UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

I indicated in an earlier post that I thought it would be safer for UK folk if we LEFT the EU and that the recent terrorist attacks may well encourage more UK voters to sway towards voting LEAVE.

It appears now that the Ex UK Chief of MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove has come out and stated that it would be safer (lower risk) for the UK to LEAVE the EU. And the UK would be better able to control its border and not be constrained by human rights when dealing with potential terrorists.

Again as highlighted in numerous posts the safety of UK folk is likely to be a big deciding issue relative to the immigration factor.

originally posted by: Morrad
Dr Lars Mosesson, Buckinghamshire New University says the government does not have to implement a Brexit vote.

"The European Union Referendum Act 2015 only provides for holding a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU: it does not provide that the government is legally obliged to take action on whatever the public decides."

I think an earlier post asked if the result was legally binding. If we do vote out and it is not implemented I would like to think there would be mass protests everywhere.

Bucks New University academic says result of EU referendum is not legally binding

I managed to read through the survey I mentioned a few pages back. The survey was conducted in Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, the Czech Republic and the Slovak Republic. The people surveyed appear to have similar concerns regarding perceived loss of sovereignty; needless bureaucracy; and immigration. It is interesting that right wing populist parties are either even or ahead in these countries according to this paper.

European turmoil has left its mark on public opinion in the eight countries examined. This survey has shown that citizens’ expectations on a number of issues vary heavily among countries. Good examples of such controversial issues would be worker mobility or welfare entitlements. Also, EU cohesion has been threatened by the fact that, across several countries, citizens rather consider the EU a risk instead of an opportunity and that they associate the EU with decreasing instead of increasing prosperity. Moreover, it is worrying that citizens believe less and less in politicians’ ability to cope with the problems the EU has been facing. Conservative and Social Democratic parties in particular have lost a large share of their perceived problem-solving competences. This »gap of trust« has increasingly been exploited by right-wing populist or even right-wing extremist parties. The ongoing rise of anti-EU forces will further complicate any attempt at achieving European consensus.

I saw this today. The remain camp can't use this scare tactic any more.

The CBI has admitted defeat – and the economic case against Brexit is collapsing

This is not surprising considering the current economic climate!

If a BREXIT vote was not implemented I suspect it would result in the biggest protests ever seen in the UK and would bring about the collapse of this government and possibly a new model of governance and PR! I personally believe that if there is a BREXIT vote it will be implemented and Cameron will be long gone!

originally posted by: CJCrawley
a reply to: nonspecific

I am really questioning what actual benefit there is to leaving for the average man on the street.
Forget the mainstream media immigration routine and the distorted figures about how many billions "WE" spend on EU membership, how will things differ?

The UK pays more into the EU budget than it gets back. Indisputable fact.

It's currently around £9 billion a year, on average. And that's including the rebate.

In 2015 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was £4.5 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at about £8.5 billion.

Sooo...£8.5 billion of British tax payers' money casually handed over to Brussels with nothing, nil, zip, nada to show for it.

But forget all that. I can tell you're not really swayed by all those facts and figures.

What you seem to be saying is, "If I go to the trouble of voting Out, I want to at least be a millionaire."

That seems to be the intellectual thrust of your argument.

Fair comments! It appears that although this thread has already covered so many arguments for LEAVING they seem to be ignored by some posters once a few pages have passed. Yet few arguments for REMAINING have been posted that have any substance to them have been submitted for debate. This is why the ATS vote is running at approx. 62% LEAVE.

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: grainofsand
I imagine there will be massive change regardless of the result.
'Remain' means the EU knows that British people have accepted it so it will have a free reign to move on as it wishes. There will be a huge change in the relationship and bargaining power the UK has with the EU after choosing to stay.
We'll be like the guy who threatens to leave his rugby club then comes back to training begging for a place on the bench next Saturday.

That's what I'm really afraid of ..... people will assume that things will go on

as normal, but they wont

The UK the SECOND LARGEST CONTRIBUTER to the EU economy will be

treated as if it was contagious a second class citizen without a voice and any clout.


I don't know what David Cameron thinks he will get out of keeping us in, He will

just be another spitting image puppet .....Laughable!!!!!

This vote in June is hugely important and will change much in the UK whatever the outcome.
I think a lot of folk do not realise how big this actually is, for us, and our future generations.

EXACTLY

Concur! Although the grass on the other riverbank is rarely any better. In this case it is not only better but critical for future generations and their benefit! The question is whether there is sufficient vision or wisdom in the younger generations who will ultimately decide this Referendum! Me thinks there is! But we will just have to see.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
a reply to: grainofsand

To be fair, most of the people I talked to about the referendum want out, in fact I would probably say around 70%.

If that is reflective of the result in June, happy days!!

I agree!

I also wonder who these polls are actually asking. Their sample sizes are really small, 2000 and the like usually.
I'm convinced if I asked 2000 people in town on Saturday I'd get different result, maybe it's a regional thing.

Best case scenario for me would be a strong majority vote out by England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland...I can but only hope and cast my single vote though.

The people (approx. 50) I have spoken with over the last number of weeks, approx. 6 out of 10 are voting LEAVE and 3 STAY and 1 UNDEC. The ATS vote is running at aapprox. 62% so there appears to be much consistency which conflicts with the so called official poles. There could be some regional aspects to this which may distort the figures to some degree.

originally posted by: mclarenmp4
a reply to: nonspecific

I am thinking about starting a new thread about our vision of a post referendum Britain and what changes we would like to see.

I thought long and hard about a post independent Scotland and the changes we could make to national and local government. It was one of the main reasons I voted Yes because we could make real changes to the way government worked.

The people would have had more power in a post independent Scotland and I think if we went for a federal style of system, it would work a lot more efficiently and satisfy the needs of the individual countries of the U.K better.

Anyway, I think I'll go and start writing that thread.

That would be interesting, there being lots of unknowns to be encountered etc.

Go easy on him there is a long long history between Scotland and the corridors of power in London!

Sovereignty is vital if the UK is to determine its own destiny in the interests of its folk and their descendants.

Apparently the Governments Energy secretary warns of £500m 'electric shock' after BREXIT. More absurd fear mongering or is this credible speculation?


www.msn.com...=1

originally posted by: CJCrawley
a reply to: nonspecific

I am really questioning what actual benefit there is to leaving for the average man on the street.
Forget the mainstream media immigration routine and the distorted figures about how many billions "WE" spend on EU membership, how will things differ?

What you seem to be saying is, "If I go to the trouble of voting Out, I want to at least be a millionaire."

That seems to be the intellectual thrust of your argument.

I am unsure as to how you came to the conclusion that my post was motivated by personal greed?

I was trying to ask that if you took away the billions of pounds going out and the immigration issue then what would be the benefit for the average member of the UK?

So lets say I am a low paid man in social housing with 2 small kids(as a lot of folks are).

What benefit will I actually see at ground level?

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
Apparently the Governments Energy secretary warns of £500m 'electric shock' after BREXIT. More absurd fear mongering or is this credible speculation?

www.msn.com...=1

Regardless of whether we are, or are not in the EU its about time the

governments of the last 12 years or so got a grip and did something about

the utilities. Their system is to baffle the customer, to be unable to know

what they pay per unit.(too longer story)........

Why does the user who feeds the metre (the poorest in our society) pay

more per unit?

They no longer need to pay people to empty the metres, its all done

electronically now, and as it is pre paid, surely it doesn't work out any

more expensive?

In the long distant past renewables and refurbishments etc. in business

were paid for from profits, Nowadays the customer pays for it as it is

included in their bill.

IN or OUT the people get screwed, The further away the perpetrator (the EU)

the easier to screw the people and be less answerable than your own

government.

We have one government lets give them hell .... we don't need the more layers

(the EU) to get through which is protecting them.

Just leave people to make their own decisions and stop trying to tell other people what they ought to do. The leave campaign is becoming its own worst enemy by basically shouting in people's faces LEAVE (caps locks included) Just because you use caps lock and bold lettering it doesn't make your arguments any more valid. What your actually doing, is undermining the intelligence of people who disagree with you. The last way to get someone to change their mind is by shouting your opinion in their face. That's more likely to have the reverse effect. It's only a few months away, everyone will get a vote, some will make their choice based on self interest, like we all do. With every choice. Those who say they don't make decisions out of self interest are probably lying. We are all selfish and it's nothing to be ashamed of. What's worse is being self righteous and claiming your decision is for the benefits of some altuturistic motivations. At the end of the day life will go on, whether in or out. It will have very little if any effect on your day to day lives, so is it really worth getting so wound up about? In a year you'll only find something else to complain and moan about despite the eu decision. This poll is certainly not representative of the nation. ATS does attract a more right wing membership on the whole. U.K. Members regularly site right wing tabloids in their threads which represent the views of the owners and editors of these papers not, the public at large. So for now I'll stick to the bookies predictions as they make their decisions purely from a financial and not emotive point of view

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamiteit would be safer (lower risk) for the UK to LEAVE the EU. And the UK would be better able to control its border and not be constrained by human rights when dealing with potential terrorists.

Oh, swell. Wait until they lock you up in some prison cell, deny you the right to a lawyer, waterboard you, put you in an orange coverall (after some soldiers pissed on you and shat on you) - all because somebody told them you were involved in a conspiracy against the government. After all, you posted on ATS, you MUST be a terrorist!

Potential terrorists - even terrorists - are human beings with human rights. Our entire civilisation revolves around these rights and if we deny them to one group, we also deny them to another. Be aware!

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
I indicated in an earlier post that I thought it would be safer for UK folk if we LEFT the EU and that the recent terrorist attacks may well encourage more UK voters to sway towards voting LEAVE.

It appears now that the Ex UK Chief of MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove has come out and stated that it would be safer (lower risk) for the UK to LEAVE the EU. And the UK would be better able to control its border and not be constrained by human rights when dealing with potential terrorists.

He also said that National Security would not be affected by leaving the EU. Others have attempted to counteract what he said, saying it would be safer in the EU.

Again as highlighted in numerous posts the safety of UK folk is likely to be a big deciding issue relative to the immigration factor.

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
Apparently the Governments Energy secretary warns of £500m 'electric shock' after BREXIT. More absurd fear mongering or is this credible speculation?

www.msn.com...=1

Regardless of whether we are, or are not in the EU its about time the

governments of the last 12 years or so got a grip and did something about

the utilities. Their system is to baffle the customer, to be unable to know

what they pay per unit.(too longer story)........

Why does the user who feeds the metre (the poorest in our society) pay

more per unit?

They no longer need to pay people to empty the metres, its all done

electronically now, and as it is pre paid, surely it doesn't work out any

more expensive?

In the long distant past renewables and refurbishments etc. in business

were paid for from profits, Nowadays the customer pays for it as it is

included in their bill.

IN or OUT the people get screwed, The further away the perpetrator (the EU)

the easier to screw the people and be less answerable than your own

government.

We have one government lets give them hell .... we don't need the more layers

(the EU) to get through which is protecting them.

Agree. Its are very Cartel MO. A con in the interest of the few. (isn't it always). Sell off the family silver for the benefit and continued pocket lining of the few at the expense of the family's needs.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamiteit would be safer (lower risk) for the UK to LEAVE the EU. And the UK would be better able to control its border and not be constrained by human rights when dealing with potential terrorists.

Oh, swell. Wait until they lock you up in some prison cell, deny you the right to a lawyer, waterboard you, put you in an orange coverall (after some soldiers pissed on you and shat on you) - all because somebody told them you were involved in a conspiracy against the government. After all, you posted on ATS, you MUST be a terrorist!

Potential terrorists - even terrorists - are human beings with human rights. Our entire civilisation revolves around these rights and if we deny them to one group, we also deny them to another. Be aware!

Terrorists who commit inhuman acts against innocent folk are NOT human beings but mad deranged sick animals that need to expire.

The only way to stop the terrorists is to eliminate them before they commit the act! I know what about human rights!
Which way do you want it.

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

As it seems that an exit is looking more and more likley I have started a thread to discuss what we should spend the £8 billion membership fees on should we leave the EU.

I started a separate thread so as not to derail this one which is dealing with the question of "IF" and not what we should do if we leave.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
Just leave people to make their own decisions and stop trying to tell other people what they ought to do. The leave campaign is becoming its own worst enemy by basically shouting in people's faces LEAVE (caps locks included) Just because you use caps lock and bold lettering it doesn't make your arguments any more valid. What your actually doing, is undermining the intelligence of people who disagree with you. The last way to get someone to change their mind is by shouting your opinion in their face. That's more likely to have the reverse effect. It's only a few months away, everyone will get a vote, some will make their choice based on self interest, like we all do. With every choice. Those who say they don't make decisions out of self interest are probably lying. We are all selfish and it's nothing to be ashamed of. What's worse is being self righteous and claiming your decision is for the benefits of some altuturistic motivations. At the end of the day life will go on, whether in or out. It will have very little if any effect on your day to day lives, so is it really worth getting so wound up about? In a year you'll only find something else to complain and moan about despite the eu decision. This poll is certainly not representative of the nation. ATS does attract a more right wing membership on the whole. U.K. Members regularly site right wing tabloids in their threads which represent the views of the owners and editors of these papers not, the public at large. So for now I'll stick to the bookies predictions as they make their decisions purely from a financial and not emotive point of view

And the bookies plan is to make money, so don't be misled by the bookies odds. Just look at Leicester. What a pay day for the bookies this season.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
Potential terrorists - even terrorists - are human beings with human rights. Our entire civilisation revolves around these rights and if we deny them to one group, we also deny them to another. Be aware!

Eewwww.....Just a thought!!!

What about the *human rights* of the body parts of the mangled victims?

And their grieving relatives?

a reply to: bigyin

1974 there was a referendum in Scotland. 51.6% voted for it but it was denied because westminster said that at least 40% of the registered voters would have to cast a vote to make the vote count. It was shown later that that would have been almost impossible to achieve.

No other vote I know of has had that stipulation. So the rules were changed to stop the proposal going through.

I genuinely didn't know that - pretty crap really and I would have been seriously pissed off.

But that was then.....

Don't get me wrong, I know that those in control in the corridors of power will stoop to the most abysmal depths to further their own agenda. But the world has changed, information is so more readily available, 'we' aren't as ignorant and naïve and we demand at least the semblance of transparency.

What has surprised is that of all the points and questions I raised that was the sum of your reply.

Couldn't you at least attempt to give some sort of reasoned response for your apparent bigotry and hatred of all things English?
Do you always casually dismiss or ignore questions and issues that you may find uncomfortable or contrary to your viewpoint?

Vote how you wish and as you see fit come the day, that is exactly how it should be, but please don't cast that vote based on nothing but bitterness and hatred both of which seem to be your primary drivers at present.

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
Potential terrorists - even terrorists - are human beings with human rights. Our entire civilisation revolves around these rights and if we deny them to one group, we also deny them to another. Be aware!

Eewwww.....Just a thought!!!

What about the *human rights* of the body parts of the mangled victims?

And their grieving relatives?

Exactly.

I know this might sound a little harsh and like a theme from the movie about punishing those before they commit the act. Cant remember its name, Tom Cruise movie.

But maybe we should deal will all those suspected of being involved with terrorist activities before they commit them. That would reduce the number of successful attacks and save a lot of innocent lives. Less dead that way then trying to watch them.

Apols for going tangent!