UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

originally posted by: grainofsand
I imagine there will be massive change regardless of the result.
'Remain' means the EU knows that British people have accepted it so it will have a free reign to move on as it wishes. There will be a huge change in the relationship and bargaining power the UK has with the EU after choosing to stay.
We'll be like the guy who threatens to leave his rugby club then comes back to training begging for a place on the bench next Saturday.

That's what I'm really afraid of ..... people will assume that things will go on

as normal, but they wont

The UK the SECOND LARGEST CONTRIBUTER to the EU economy will be

treated as if it was contagious a second class citizen without a voice and any clout.


I don't know what David Cameron thinks he will get out of keeping us in, He will

just be another spitting image puppet .....Laughable!!!!!

This vote in June is hugely important and will change much in the UK whatever the outcome.
I think a lot of folk do not realise how big this actually is, for us, and our future generations.

EXACTLY

I have an open and honest question for those looking to choose to leave the EU including the OP if we can put differences aside.

Imagine that I am thinking of myself and do not think that immigration is an issue.

Imagine that I do not have an issue with paying more into the EU than we get out because we are a strong Nation and still manage to do well even with the billions that go into it.

If we leave then what will actually change for me?

Will we still not have a Tory leadership? will politicians from either side not continue to look after their own interests?

Will the NHS all of a sudden stop it's inevitable fall into privatisation?

Will utility prices fall and will taxes be lowered?

Will the Police force regain it's intended purpose?

Will we stop getting involved in other nations wars for ego and/or profit?

Will corporations start paying taxes?

Will schools not become self funded academies?

I am on the fence right now but imagine that I am selfish.

Why should I decide to change my vote based on real life problems and concerns?

My vote may count so answer wisely.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
a reply to: grainofsand

To be fair, most of the people I talked to about the referendum want out, in fact I would probably say around 70%.

If that is reflective of the result in June, happy days!!

I agree!

I also wonder who these polls are actually asking. Their sample sizes are really small, 2000 and the like usually.
I'm convinced if I asked 2000 people in town on Saturday I'd get different result, maybe it's a regional thing.

Best case scenario for me would be a strong majority vote out by England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland...I can but only hope and cast my single vote though.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
Is this the ongoing thread or one of the other 10 threads the O.P has posted about the ongoing thread? I'm beginning to become confused by it all.

Anyway, I'm still for leaving.

Just pointers to those who may have missed this thread.
My apols for any confusion.

a reply to: visitors

Aye the 12C is a nice car, your a lucky man to have driven one.
Although I did pick my username after the F1 cars. They've used the MP4 name on all F1 cars since Ron Dennis merged his team with McLaren in the 80's.

a reply to: nonspecific

I'm voting for ideological reasons in the main, sovereignty of state, and smaller government, so if you don't care about that then I'm not much help, sorry.
It is important enough to me that I'm happy to face unexpected challenges in the medium term. I have been informed enough on the subject since 1992 when we were signed up to the Maastricht Treaty without any vote about it.

I'm not here to convince anyone to vote either way, just vote or spoil your ballot paper with your thoughts, and make sure you are making the most informed choice you can.
Nobody can tell you X or Y specific thing will happen if we remain, or leave, nobody knows.

I just choose the supreme government ruling over me to be the national government, negotiating with the rest of the world as other national governments outside of the EU do.

It's your choice mate, and it all depends on what you care about yourself.

originally posted by: nonspecific
Will we still not have a Tory leadership? will politicians from either side not continue to look after their own interests?

Had to stop reading your post just to answer this!
We will have a tory leadership, till the people vote in another party, however
as you have said "They are all as bad as each other."

We have 650 MP's (and I think we should look at having a smaller representation)
However there are 751 and counting (the Turks?) fat cat MP's in the EU. Unelected,
Unaccountable, and it seems to be in a job for life. At least we get the chance to
vote ours out every five years.

As we already have a government Why o Why do we need yet another layer in Brussels

The more with their noses in the trough, the harder to see the corruption

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: nonspecific
Will we still not have a Tory leadership? will politicians from either side not continue to look after their own interests?

Had to stop reading your post just to answer this!
We will have a tory leadership, till the people vote in another party, however
as you have said "They are all as bad as each other."

We have 650 MP's (and I think we should look at having a smaller representation)
However there are 751 and counting (the Turks?) fat cat MP's in the EU. Unelected,
Unaccountable, and it seems to be in a job for life. At least we get the chance to
vote ours out every five years.

As we already have a government Why o Why do we need yet another layer in Brussels

The more with their noses in the trough, the harder to see the corruption

I agree but could we not take it one step further though?

We already have local councils that deal with the administration of local affairs so why exactly do we have a nationwide government anyway?

Other than to decide who to bomb next and which minority to rinse next?

As I said in the post earlier,

Imagine I am the average man on the street with an average job and a wife and 2 kids.

Why should I vote to leave and how will my life actually improve?

Genuine question.

a reply to: nonspecific

I am thinking about starting a new thread about our vision of a post referendum Britain and what changes we would like to see.

I thought long and hard about a post independent Scotland and the changes we could make to national and local government. It was one of the main reasons I voted Yes because we could make real changes to the way government worked.

The people would have had more power in a post independent Scotland and I think if we went for a federal style of system, it would work a lot more efficiently and satisfy the needs of the individual countries of the U.K better.

Anyway, I think I'll go and start writing that thread.

originally posted by: mclarenmp4
a reply to: nonspecific

I am thinking about starting a new thread about our vision of a post referendum Britain and what changes we would like to see.

I thought long and hard about a post independent Scotland and the changes we could make to national and local government. It was one of the main reasons I voted Yes because we could make real changes to the way government worked.

The people would have had more power in a post independent Scotland and I think if we went for a federal style of system, it would work a lot more efficiently and satisfy the needs of the individual countries of the U.K better.

Anyway, I think I'll go and start writing that thread.

It would make for an interesting discussion in my mind.

As I said before I was anti EU for a long time and although English fully supported the Scottish vote to leave yet with the EU referendum I feel that the right thing to do is vote to stay in.

I am really questioning what actual benefit there is to leaving for the average man on the street.

Forget the mainstream media immigration routine and the distorted figures about how many billions "WE" spend on EU membership, how will things differ?

I have asked the question here but it is early days and not much of a response but will happily ask it in a new thread if it goes unanswered here.

a reply to: mclarenmp4

That sounds a really interesting speculative thread, I'd be interested in reading the various opinions.

originally posted by: nonspecific


I agree but could we not take it one step further though?

We already have local councils that deal with the administration of local affairs so why exactly do we have a nationwide government anyway?

Other than to decide who to bomb next and which minority to rinse next?

As I said in the post earlier,

Imagine I am the average man on the street with an average job and a wife and 2 kids.

Why should I vote to leave and how will my life actually improve?

Genuine question.

I am an average woman with children and grandchildren. Whatever happens
in the *foreseeable* future wont effect me....
However I ask why did my/your father, grandfather and maybe even great
grand father, join the forces at 17 years of age over two wars, in water filled
trenches, and awful conditions, and put their lives in mortal danger?
Many of them forfeited their lives so that their children, grand children, and
great grand children, were free from dictators, and any servitude that it
would involve.

In the same way..... but with a pen, I hope to leave my issue with a *life worth
living* in a country *worth living in,* without interference from other countries
that have lived for centuries steeped in a different style of life. Maybe nice to
visit nice to be friends .... but on a different wavelength.

I have visited other countries, lived in other countries, I have relatives in Canada
America , Australia France Spain Italy and Malta. But I wouldn't live any where
other than England. I lived here when Britain was blitzed and had to be rebuilt
before the EU.

As I have said before, THERE WAS LIFE BEFORE THE EU AND IT WAS GOOD
The EU is sucking the life out of the UK and its people, to the extent where they
are apathetic and have lost the spirit that once made them *Great Britain's*

a reply to: eletheia

Where I live we have committees looking after one another, then we have communities that are totally broken. They both owe ther existence to Thatcher and Blair kept the Satus Quo, despite the pockets of poverty remaining.

Life was good under Blair and I thought it was quite a balanced society until we got nvlved in wars which cost our economy. I now dislike Blair with a passion, and I never took to Brown as Prime Mnister.

I wonder how many of us would have a go at their job though? Once you are in the echelons of power, you are targeted to be bought and unless you are a career bank bencher then you end up being owned.

You have a few more years of living than a number of us in this thread, and I always listen to past mistakes and glories. If you say Britain is better out, then I agree.

a reply to: mclarenmp4

You call it what you want. But when westminster lies to you and tries to keep you in EU when you know what they are saying is all lies and they use every trick in the book then you will know how it feels.

Karma

a reply to: Freeborn

1974 there was a referendum in Scotland. 51.6% voted for it but it was denied because westminster said that at least 40% of the registered voters would have to cast a vote to make the vote count. It was shown later that that would have been almost impossible to achieve.

No other vote I know of has had that stipulation. So the rules were changed to stop the proposal going through.

a reply to: grainofsand

No problem. I'm voting to stay in. Suck it up.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978


Where I live we have committees looking after one another, then we have communities that are totally broken. They both owe ther existence to Thatcher and Blair kept the Satus Quo, despite the pockets of poverty remaining.

Communities existed before governments, and like governments there are
good and bad of both. I have lived through 7 conservative PM's and 4 labour PM's
Under none of them was everything good, after all no one can "please all of the
people all of the time," and sometimes difficult and hard decisions have to be made.
What I personally don't like is the petty silly name calling of both the government
in the House and the public alike.
The ridiculous sort of name calling *Thatcher the milk snatcher* The milk was
brought into play during the war and rationing, to make sure the children got their
calcium.

It was withdrawn in the 90's long after it was necessary to supplement diets for
children who were it might be said at the beginning of the obesity crisis? However
half the children didn't take the milk anyway.

Then Tony Blair the *Celebrity* socialist wipper snapper rode in to pop song! [LOL!!
He was more conservative than the conservatives, and the only one he helped was
himself. He conned all parents who had aspirations for their children with every
one going to university. Well not every one wants to go to university some are
happier with a trade. So now we have a dearth of young people with *Micky Mouse*
degrees and trades people from the EU doing all our trades employment.
Oh now there's an excuse for the EU....*trades people* because we haven't any
of our own.

Life was good under Blair and I thought it was quite a balanced society until we got nvlved in wars which cost our economy. I now dislike Blair with a passion, and I never took to Brown as Prime Mnister.

See different strokes for different folks .... because my most progressive and best
off years were under Margaret Thatcher!!

I wonder how many of us would have a go at their job though? Once you are in the echelons of power, you are targeted to be bought and unless you are a career bank bencher then you end up being owned.

That I put down to character and moral fibre most of them don't have any, typical
old style salesmen! LOL But I agree there are some long time back benchers
just doing their job who are not out to make a name for themselves.

You have a few more years of living than a number of us in this thread, and I always listen to past mistakes and glories. If you say Britain is better out, then I agree.

When you have the years behind you and the experience under 11 plus different
PM'syou wont have to agree .... You'll know.

Dr Lars Mosesson, Buckinghamshire New University says the government does not have to implement a Brexit vote.

"The European Union Referendum Act 2015 only provides for holding a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU: it does not provide that the government is legally obliged to take action on whatever the public decides."

I think an earlier post asked if the result was legally binding. If we do vote out and it is not implemented I would like to think there would be mass protests everywhere.

Bucks New University academic says result of EU referendum is not legally binding

I managed to read through the survey I mentioned a few pages back. The survey was conducted in Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, the Czech Republic and the Slovak Republic. The people surveyed appear to have similar concerns regarding perceived loss of sovereignty; needless bureaucracy; and immigration. It is interesting that right wing populist parties are either even or ahead in these countries according to this paper.

European turmoil has left its mark on public opinion in the eight countries examined. This survey has shown that citizens’ expectations on a number of issues vary heavily among countries. Good examples of such controversial issues would be worker mobility or welfare entitlements. Also, EU cohesion has been threatened by the fact that, across several countries, citizens rather consider the EU a risk instead of an opportunity and that they associate the EU with decreasing instead of increasing prosperity. Moreover, it is worrying that citizens believe less and less in politicians’ ability to cope with the problems the EU has been facing. Conservative and Social Democratic parties in particular have lost a large share of their perceived problem-solving competences. This »gap of trust« has increasingly been exploited by right-wing populist or even right-wing extremist parties. The ongoing rise of anti-EU forces will further complicate any attempt at achieving European consensus.

I saw this today. The remain camp can't use this scare tactic any more.

The CBI has admitted defeat – and the economic case against Brexit is collapsing

a reply to: nonspecific

I am really questioning what actual benefit there is to leaving for the average man on the street.
Forget the mainstream media immigration routine and the distorted figures about how many billions "WE" spend on EU membership, how will things differ?

The UK pays more into the EU budget than it gets back. Indisputable fact.

It's currently around £9 billion a year, on average. And that's including the rebate.

In 2015 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was £4.5 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at about £8.5 billion.

Sooo...£8.5 billion of British tax payers' money casually handed over to Brussels with nothing, nil, zip, nada to show for it.

But forget all that. I can tell you're not really swayed by all those facts and figures.

What you seem to be saying is, "If I go to the trouble of voting Out, I want to at least be a millionaire."

That seems to be the intellectual thrust of your argument.

originally posted by: Morrad
Dr Lars Mosesson, Buckinghamshire New University says the government does not have to implement a Brexit vote.
"The European Union Referendum Act 2015 only provides for holding a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU: it does not provide that the government is legally obliged to take action on whatever the public decides."

It has already been said by one of the leaders of the EU that Cameron's

pathetic concessions don't hold water and they are unlikely to be

implemented. And now ^^^^^ that.

Seems the EU has everything tied up in their own favour ... Whatever we do

they have the autonomy to veto it?

Do they know that's not Democracy its a Dictatorship

Its a Law unto itself!! .... I take that back it seems They ARE the Law!!

I think an earlier post asked if the result was legally binding. If we do vote out and it is not implemented I would like to think there would be mass protests everywhere.

A full Rebellion is called for