UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

a reply to: Freeborn

We have nuclear weapons stored in Scotland that we don't want.

a reply to: Freeborn

Your not Scottish.

You don't live in Scotland.

And yet you continually go on about how Scotland wouldn't be capable of this or that, when you don't actually know anything about Scotland.

How would you feel if people from another country kept telling you that England wasn't capable of anything and would be far better off staying dependent on their country to get by ?

In my opinion your entire view of Scots and Scotland borders on racism. If you said the same things about another race or religion you would be arrested.

a reply to: crazyewok

Clearly you don't know how the EU works.

Each member state in EU is an independent country.

The only countries in EU that are not independent are Scotland, England, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

These four countries are combined into the UK which is treated for EU purposes as a single entity. The UK is not a country it is a unions of four countries. I think I've been over this before.

In football the UK is not considered a country. Each country in the UK has it's own team and thats how they enter any competition. From a footballing point of view this gives 'Britain' /'UK' an advantage as it means we have 4 teams from the UK.

The same would apply in EU. Whereas just now we have one representation from UK we could have four representations from each of the countries and therefore have 4 voting rights instead of just one.

But England and Wales have voted to leave EU. Thats fine.

Scotland and Northern Ireland can still stay in EU and each have one voting right. Which is one more than Scotland has at the moment.

So Scotland would be an independent country in the EU with one voting right along with Northern Ireland if they do the same, and we can join with other independent countries such as Ireland, Belgium, Estonia, Poland, Croatia, etc , etc each of whom have one voting right.

Scotland therefore would be elevated to an equal position with each of the other independent countries in EU.

I think that is a much better position than the one we are in just now.

Alien Act 1705

The Alien Act was a law passed by the Parliament of England in 1705, as a response to the Parliament of Scotland's Act of Security of 1704, which in turn was partially a response to the English Act of Settlement 1701. The Alien Act provided that Scottish nationals in England were to be treated as aliens (foreign nationals), and estates held by Scots would be treated as alien property,[1] making inheritance much less certain. It also included an embargo on the import of Scottish products into England and English colonies – about half of Scotland's trade, covering goods such as linen, cattle and coal.[2] The Act contained a provision that it would be suspended if the Scots entered into negotiations regarding a proposed union of the parliaments of Scotland and England. Combined with English financial offers to refund Scottish losses on the Darien scheme, the Act achieved its aim, leading to the Acts of Union 1707 uniting the two countries as the Kingdom of Great Britain.

So from day one of the Union so fondly spoken of by Teresa May Scotland has been forced by England into submission with threats.

Been going on to this day.

George Osborne fired
Boris Johnson made Foreign Secretary

originally posted by: bigyin

The Alien Act was a law passed by the Parliament of England in 1705, as a response to the Parliament of Scotland's Act of Security of 1704

I highlight this point that the Act of Security was in itself a blackmailing attempt to force England into a union which England did not want.
The English wanted nothing from the Scottish connection except common foreign policy. For that, all they needed was the union of the crowns. That's why the English parliament had snubbed even James VI's attempts to promote something closer.

The Scottish side, on the other hand, wanted and needed economic union (that was the moral of the Darien affair), and this would only be available through union of the parliaments.
This was achieved through the Act of Security, which insisted on breaking the union of crowns (which was all England wanted), implying a different foreign policy and renewed invasions. This was the threat which eventually got England to the negotiating table for full union.

I've have always thought it rather absurd that Scottish nationalists, who by definition WANT to be aliens in England, should have a sense of historic grievance about an Act which would have treated them like the aliens they want to be.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I think you miss the point.

The smaller nation Scotland wants something. The dominant nation England doesn't want it but wants something else.

Threats and claims are made both ways but in the end it's the dominant nation that gets what it wants. And that remains the case from the beginning of the union till now. England dominates the union not only with Scotland but also with Wales and Northern Ireland.

Whatever England wants it gets. It wants out of EU so we all have to go with that. We the Scots don't get a say in the matter.

We need independence so we can decide whats best for us, not best for England.

Make of this what you will............

'Maybe the Brits are just having us on': the world reacts to Boris Johnson as foreign minister


www.msn.com... &ocid=mailsignout


TM's not a closet BREXITEER is she or does she get comfort from having BJ in the cabinet? Or does it keep him out of the way and thus reduce his chances of mounting a challenge later.

Interesting development nonetheless.

David Davis: SAS hardman is Britain's Brexit minister


www.msn.com...


Nice choice!

a reply to: bigyin

We have nuclear weapons stored in Scotland that we don't want.

Ok, I'll take your word for that - there are no actual facts to support that just opinions and polls, (and we all know just how accurate opinion polls can be!).

But that is the ONE example you can give to support your assertion that Scotland and its people are oppressed?
Seriously, one example?

And to be honest, I think you give your countryfolk a disservice - do you honestly believe that they would have cowered down and allowed themselves to be as oppressed as you seem to think you are and for how long long?
Nonsense.

Your not Scottish.

No I don't.

You don't live in Scotland.

No I don't.

And yet you continually go on about how Scotland wouldn't be capable of this or that, when you don't actually know anything about Scotland.

No I don't.
Again, give me examples of where I say' Scotland wouldn't be capable of this or that'.

I do state my opinion that I feel both Scotland and the UK would better if Scotland remained within the UK.
I do state my opinion that I feel that Scotland would lose what control they have over their own matters with Holyrood if they were to remain in the EU as an 'independent' country.
I do state my opinion that I feel we have a better chance of turning the UK into something we can be proud of if we stick together and fight the control of the elites united together.
I do state my opinion that there are ties that bind our group of nations together that should never be untied.

How would you feel if people from another country kept telling you that England wasn't capable of anything and would be far better off staying dependent on their country to get by ?

We had that from Brussels - we, the British people saw through that.

In my opinion your entire view of Scots and Scotland borders on racism.

Absolute bollocks.
Show me one example of this so called borderline racism.
Please, just one example.

If anything I'd say I'm far more pro-Scottish that many on here.
I like Scotland and like the people - I do visit there quite often and have many, many good friends up there.

I don't however get fooled by this romantic, Braveheart like nonsense that many Scots get every time Independence and 'Freedom' are mentioned.
This suppressed nation #e is just that - absolute crap.

And if I'm being honest, your ridiculous accusations of racism seem like the actions of a person who lacks any facts to support his position so you reach for the racism card in some lame attempt to blacken my name etc.

You really couldn't be further from the truth.


If you said the same things about another race or religion you would be arrested.

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Boris Johnson is a knobhead and its a disgrace that he's been appointed Foreign Secretary.

He's duplicitous, self-serving and opinionated.
In addition I would have thought diplomacy would be a key attribute for the Foreign Secretary yet it doesn't really appear to be one of stronger points.

What I will say is that despite my personal dislike for May I don't envy her job.
She has inherited a nation that is riddled with divisions.
Never has the UK been so divided - an absolutely horrendous legacy for Cameron to leave anyone.

After the BREXIT is complete you will then see BJ make his move for PM. In the meantime he will leave the task of overseeing BREXIT to TM because he knows its a rocky road but benefits come later. He alo knows that the Tory party is split and wants TM to suffer that and not he. He will be the saver later for them to finally brig them back together for the next GE!

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

Boris Johnson is a knobhead and its a disgrace that he's been appointed Foreign Secretary.

He's duplicitous, self-serving and opinionated.
In addition I would have thought diplomacy would be a key attribute for the Foreign Secretary yet it doesn't really appear to be one of stronger points.

What I will say is that despite my personal dislike for May I don't envy her job.
She has inherited a nation that is riddled with divisions.
Never has the UK been so divided - an absolutely horrendous legacy for Cameron to leave anyone.

The UK has been divided like this before and a long time ago also.
As for BJ, not keen on him but he's not the fool he is betrayed as!
But on BREXIT he was and is right.
He will be PM before long.
TM well not keen on her either, would have preferred AL.
We need PR and things wont change till we get it, if ever.

a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

The UK has been divided like this before and a long time ago also.

When?

At present we have North v South.
Have's v Have Not's.
Pro EU v Anti EU.
Nationalists v Unionists.
Pro Austerity v Anti Austerity.
London / Westminster v Rest of the UK.
Establishment v Anti Establishment.

They are just to mention a few of the divisions within our society at present.

Never before, certainly not in my lifetime or to my knowledge, have we all been so at odds with each other.

This is reflected in the total disunity within all of our political parties where factions vie with each other.

As for BJ, not keen on him but he's not the fool he is betrayed as!

Boris is a knob.
Yes, he is intelligent and yes he was right about Brexit....but he's still a knob and represents everything I despise about the current system.

He will be PM before long.

I hope not....but you could well be right, only time will tell.

TM well not keen on her either, would have preferred AL.

The one thing I think we all recognise is that now is a time for strong leadership.
She's certainly put her own stamp on things with her Cabinet appointments - I don't particularly like her politics but I suspect she may have the strength of character to provide direction and resolve.

We need PR and things wont change till we get it, if ever.

Not sure if PR is the answer but the one thing we both seem to agree on is the need for reform of both our electoral and parliamentary procedures.

Party politics is restrictive and one dimensional and leans towards the advancement of party dogma over the interests and wishes of the electorate.
It is no longer fit for purpose.

a reply to: Freeborn

You don't need to take my word for any of it.

Scotland voted in 56 SNP MP's out of 59. We have 1 Labour MP, 1 Lib Dem, and 1 Tory. The remaining 56 are SNP.

Can't think what else evidence you require that Scotland does not want Nukes. We have them here because Westminster says so despite 95% elected representatives from Scotland saying no.

And on that point when we have 95% representation from Scotland saying lots of things and getting either ignored or overruled at Westminster thats what I call oppression. 95% SNP MP's and we end up with a Tory government. That's oppression.

Taking Scotland out of EU is financial oppression. Scotland currently puts in 8.4% of EU contribution but gets out around 17% of EU funding so we are going to lose out big time.

On the racist angle I would say every one of your posts shows disrespect to Scots. You are the one who constantly refers to Redcoats, Braveheart, romantic notions, and saying Scotland can't survive in EU, will be swallowed up as if we can't fend for ourselves. You refer to our First Minister as a 'crank' because she want's the best for Scotland. I would say somebody would be a crank if they didn't do the best for their country.

Nukes are one example of Scots being oppressed by Westminster, there are loads more, but your not interested in what goes on here. You say Scotland is cherished but it's not. Many on here say they couldn't care less about Scotland and are sick of hearing about it. Cameron said he wanted Scotland to lead the UK not leave and yet the day after the referendum all he could talk about was English Votes for English Laws and Scottish MP's are now banned from voting on certain matters. How's that for cherished ? Only thing about Scotland that Westminster cherishes is the oil revenue which has provided Westminster with hundreds of billions of pounds.

Total tax receipts from oil and gas production from the UK Continental Shelf (UKCS) since 1975 have exceeded £330bn but that figure doesn’t reflect the worth of the industry to the Treasury. The North Sea supports the employment of around 450,000 people in the UK, all of whom pay income tax and spend their wages on the usual things such as homes and new cars. This is one of the reasons why Aberdeen remains one of the wealthiest enclaves in Britain outside London and the South East.

If Scotland had got it's independence back in the 70's we would be a very rich country, but those riches have been plundered by Westminster. I call that oppression. What do you call it ?

Out of interest here is a map showing the countries that have gained independence from Westminster



Not one of them has ever asked to be ruled from London again.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: RP2SticksOfDynamite

The UK has been divided like this before and a long time ago also.

When?

At present we have North v South.
Have's v Have Not's.
Pro EU v Anti EU.
Nationalists v Unionists.
Pro Austerity v Anti Austerity.
London / Westminster v Rest of the UK.
Establishment v Anti Establishment.

They are just to mention a few of the divisions within our society at present.

Never before, certainly not in my lifetime or to my knowledge, have we all been so at odds with each other.

This is reflected in the total disunity within all of our political parties where factions vie with each other.

As for BJ, not keen on him but he's not the fool he is betrayed as!

Boris is a knob.
Yes, he is intelligent and yes he was right about Brexit....but he's still a knob and represents everything I despise about the current system.

He will be PM before long.

I hope not....but you could well be right, only time will tell.

TM well not keen on her either, would have preferred AL.

The one thing I think we all recognise is that now is a time for strong leadership.
She's certainly put her own stamp on things with her Cabinet appointments - I don't particularly like her politics but I suspect she may have the strength of character to provide direction and resolve.

We need PR and things wont change till we get it, if ever.

Not sure if PR is the answer but the one thing we both seem to agree on is the need for reform of both our electoral and parliamentary procedures.

Party politics is restrictive and one dimensional and leans towards the advancement of party dogma over the interests and wishes of the electorate.
It is no longer fit for purpose.

The UK has always been divided along some front or another and you can go back a 1000 years

With Brexit now likely, the "mood" in Scotland has swung firmly in favour of independence within the EU. That's my gut feeling.

But there's no point telling Scots they voted No to independence and for them to suck it up and enjoy their journey to Brexit. That approach grates and drives people in droves towards the SNP.

I think some Scots regret their No vote to independence, the way subsequent events have panned out. They were promised that a No vote meant we'd stay in the EU.

And that's a difficult one in personal terms. I think, whatever the issue, if you vote one way then deeply regret the way you voted, you tend to swing violently into the other camp. And you stay there. You become embittered if you think you've been misled.

But that's where some Scottish voters now find themselves. I don't think they represent a huge number, maybe 5-10% of the electorate, but they'll be enough to swing a second independence referendum.

There's obviously a mood down south against what is seen as outside interference. That's reasonable. Maybe Brexit in English terms was as much a vote for more independence for them as it was for anything else ?

originally posted by: bigyin
Out of interest here is a map showing the countries that have gained independence from Westminster

Not one of them has ever asked to be ruled from London again.

Apart from Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Bahamas they are all third world # holes


Good luck Scotland! May the odds be ever in your favour!

originally posted by: crazyewok
Apart from Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Bahamas they are all third world # holes

Are you Boris Johnson by any chance ?