Where have all the moderates gone?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Government control of health care would require massive confiscation of systems beyond removing the mechanisms of choice.

Plenty of the hospitals in our system are privately owned and built and operated. Either a government control system puts them out of business or ends up taking them over to harmonize them with the single-payer system. That's 1/6th of our economy that then becomes state operated and controlled.

Massive loss of liberty there. Same as with the public education system, but at least it was more or less started as public.

Then there is the idea of state owned energy ... also a massive confiscation of assets ...

Private hospitals? Puts them out of business? Messes up the economy? Sorry; HMO's do what again? That's right force independent Dr. Offices to play the corrupt join the party ball game, by offering to buy you out until you cant refuse. What about pharma lobbyists in Washington and in your local "private office" making appointment times horrendous and working bribes to rig the insurance companies and deal their alternative "new" treatment for the next stage in clinical trials... insurance companies whom also lobbied politicians to drag feet on the ACA(Obama care) so they could get monopolies or close to it instead of competing as intended in states then scream states rights in opposition ro keep that gravy train corruption scheme going?

Sorry, but the jig is up... there are several institutions bending us over on things every human needs to live and survive day to day... that does not need to be capitalized and price fixed and sold as stock where is that ticker found? The human misery index. We get sick and injured. Fact. So you cannot live and avoid health issues until the day you close your pretty little eyes... unless you like suffering through illness and injury with no intervention of any kind... obviously since we help wounded and sick animals and not leave all of them to nature... one can see how health care is a human right in a compassionate society, country, continent, world as a basic and intrinsic human need. Unless of course some people think some humans are animals or less than animals because one is skipping merrily down some unattainable ideological highway destroying any thing or anyone that does not share the same ideological cognitive dissonance against human decency.

So even though socialist style healthcare would in fact be cheaper... taking all the "on the take" industries price fixing things like OPEC does with oil until one of their partners in the rigged market of supply and demand's butt gets twitchy causing some nice priced $h!t for once... while we scramble trying to grab the scraps the group monopoly or PAC drops, during these times...

EX... housing industry's bubble popped who was at the helm government side? Oh whatdya know... Ol Newty G. what did he do? Step to the side then had the gnads to run for POTUS... nice how many "vested" in that misfortune buying up cheap houses too soon to wink wink flip bit too soon? Dang 4 years investing sure there was no way Obama would land office again... now youre stuck because all the damage with war and national security out pricing new buyers economically where no one can afford them, not even all those greedy to snatch up during the crisis as a long term investment 4 years max right opps now bankrupted from taxes and mortgages bank owns them all and wow what a liability all these vacant homes are huh? Some such eye sores people fore bomb them to clean up neighborhoods and try to retain some property value.

Is this what the GOP wants to do to healthcare... pop! sorry ACA creation allowed all the games of rigging and playing and gaming the system to be seen... both sides guilty though I mean you show up... theres a feast eventually youre gonna get hungry and be tempted to take a bite and wow another insider welcomed and PACed heres your sponsorship patch for selling out every man woman and child struggling for basic needs and survival everyday.

Yeah capital idea; capitalism... here I'll use some myself: NO

originally posted by: Eilasvaleleyn
a reply to: Gryphon66

Erm, erm, but he's a Socialist! There's gotta be a lot of unconstitutional things there. There's just gotta!

His gun stances? That's about it. But he's no worse than Obama when it comes to that.

Cant really say guns... as he keeps getting slammed by Mrs. Hillary Clinton over his record of defending the 2nd. One thing the right always screams is pry it from my cold dead hands as it is the last line of self defense against tyranny.

Ok well Mr. Sanders is a smart man... lets not forget all governments have a pathway to totalitarianism if the populous doesn't keep them politically pure to avoid it unless thats what the people want for a government... I mean youd be happy to starve to death or march into an oven to feed your divine do no wrong benevolent leader right? I mean people do it over one they can;t see right why not one you can see? Bernie knows that as many like to point out as having Jewish heritage... so whoa wait a minute Nazism used socialism to rise to power and heres a "Jewish" man running for president under a socialist based platform... he'd have to be nuts right? Well, no as social democracy is not the same thing... Hitler banned smoking opps so did we, He also did what? Ban guns.

So maybe just maybe Mr. Sanders has spent a lot of time studying the failings of what could have led to something great if not twisted and corrupted like the Nazi party did with socialism as a launching platform. Safe to say since Mr. Sanders knows all of this he also knows what failed what corrupted and what to avoid from it... the world at the time before Hitler went full tilt embraced many many ideas and values associated but the association is bad mmkay kids its bad... as Nazism is the end result when socialism is corrupted with extremism.

The same way capitalism has been corrupted and will lead to corporate totalitarianism where 3-5 multinational corporations that own all the other corporations in that chain rule the entire world and have us strip mining the planet and killing nationalist ethnic populations against the globalist agenda with war and destabilization while adding straw to an already broken back to further it using both REP and DEM parties. One blatantly says lets kill em all and take it you know before they can get us as a preemptive strike excuse... and one that says lets go a little slower yet still head that way but try to not cause so much pain and misery in the process which is more inline with the UN's policy. Some countries in the UN have already said ok hey we will help supply humanitarian aid from all this war and restructuring but our citizens are tired of paying the war side in money and lives and bow out of the combat theater and take another role in the effort not so violent, controversial, or stressful to the population and stand as a goal to look forward to on the grand scale.

Those knowing this agenda are heavily vested and like to play the market, to advance their wealth in the face of this trad-edgy that seems to be self justified... if it sounds dirty? Imagine how it feels if you have a conscious when you take that bite and learn $h!t sandwich and you can't un bite it.

So yeah I understand why oh so many are very very happy to speak out against this system... Bigbrotherdarkness... you know about all of this and yet speak against this gravy train? What are you out of your mind? Mad? Invest man work the system rape everyone like we do what the serious F? Yes, awake and rightly so, but still human none the less. If I leave the Ghetto the ghetto is coming with me... knocking on the door of your heart; will it match the same as your mouth: Just beat it I worked for segregation and inequality?

Hope not; but hey your cross to bear as a personal choice

a reply to: muse7

Because a war is brewing in the US.

Conservatives compose 70+% of the US, but only about 20-25% vote for the most part.
Liberals compose about 25% of the US, but ALMOST all of them vote and are activist.

In most elections only about 45-50% vote and you see from above that most of these are liberal.

The 50% of the conservatives have been woke up by the past 30+ years of liberals pushing their agenda's on the country. For the most part they are probably more libertarian in their views. (IE they don't care what most people do, as long as they leave them alone.) The liberal agenda, the PC world and such are becoming an issue to them.

The rise of the tea party and the support for Trump are signs of this. BUT, if they can not swing the country back towrds the middle again the rising tension MIGHT also cause physical reaction. How ever this swing back towards the right happens they will probably go back to sleep again in a few years and go back to being non-involved in the year to year politics. (Which is actually bad because it keeps this cycle going.)

How much of a swing right depends on weather the political system or force is used. IF force is used we can expect a LARGE swing back to the right. Remember most of these people are the one that have been trained by military and/or local custom to fight. The left by comparison are NOT the ones that are armed.

That is my opinion at least, and personally I do think we need the POLITICAL swing back towards the right. I don't relish the thought of the other option and hope they are not pushed that far.

a reply to: dismanrc

Conservatives compose 70+% of the US, but only about 20-25% vote for the most part. Liberals compose about 25% of the US, but ALMOST all of them vote and are activist.

I don't know about that 70%.

When Gallup initiated this measure of self-identified political ideology in 1992, the largest group of Americans called themselves moderate, while slightly more than one-third identified as conservative and fewer than one in five as liberal. The conservative-liberal gap at that time was 19 points, and by 1996 it had widened to 22 points, its highest across the trend. Since then, the liberal percentage has swelled and the percentage of moderates has shrunk from 40% to 34%.

These results are based on combined data from Gallup's standalone surveys of U.S. adults, totaling between 16,000 and 45,000 interviews for each year.

Surveys are surveys but that's a pretty high number of participants and it's not based on voters but self-identification.

Along Party lines 70% pops up but...

At the same time, Republicans' strong tendency to identify with the conservative moniker stayed the same in 2014 at 70%, just under the 73% high point reached in 2012. The percentage of Republicans who consider themselves conservative remains slightly higher today than it was through the mid-2000s,and the pattern is nearly the same with independents. At the same time, fewer Democrats call themselves conservative compared with a decade ago.

Gallup

as far as registered voters go? Registered Independents are higher and growing than both Republican and Democrat:

(I) 39%
(D) 32%
(R) 23%

Those numbers are according to Pew

a reply to: muse7

Moderates died because it is really easy to whine about things on the internet, and the complacent don't have anything to whine about.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: muse7

Moderates died because it is really easy to whine about things on the internet, and the complacent don't have anything to whine about.

We're also in a time of change, where one group, even if shrinking, are extremely resistant to change and are locked in a death grip... they're desperate because they're dying and are afraid of what is going to be left behind for their own (family, friends, group).

I'm not saying this to be mean or accuse any group of being outdated or old because the opposite would be true as well and someday it will probably be people like me when the change is settled and something new is coming along. It's psychological, status quo is very difficult to let go of. The struggle though creates increasing extremes on both sides of the tug-of-war.

However, the extreme of the one dying creates an actual need for extremes within the new... otherwise the change won't happen.

a reply to: Kali74

True, but you are just further elaborating on what I'm getting at. The internet (well computers in general) changed the game significantly. Some haven't fully realized that because they didn't grow up with the internet. Millennials are literally the most educated generation in history and that stat can be single handedly attributed to computers and the internet.

The older generations that are more used to not dealing with the internet and going by older sources of information see the world moving much quicker than they are used to, and it doesn't help that the internet is really good at exposing their increasing irrelevance. Thus, there is backlash.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I think the only thing the internet has changed about this pattern (the pattern exists throughout all of human history) is that we don't see it unless we look on the internet. The last time we had a big change was 9/11 and it was on the news for months... the actual attack, the world response, the American response, the political response and then the military response. Previously it was 60's... when the hippies and civil rights activists were physically everywhere if you didn't see their actions, you saw your neighborhood teens and college kids going to these events or going with their large groups of movement minded kids.

All of it still happened pretty fast.

Briefly in this current cycle of change we saw Occupy out there, we saw black people out in the streets in outrage and protest, we currently see an open rebellion against the Federal Government but that too will only be physically seen briefly.

It's all happening as before, the arguing, the intensity, the clashing... we just have to leave our houses or jobs or whatever a lot less often to witness or be part of it.

Just to elaborate

a reply to: Kali74

I'm not saying that change didn't happen quickly in previous eras. It certainly did, but the change I'm talking about now is unprecedented. Think exponential scales. The speed of change in previous eras is getting eclipsed by change that moves quicker and quicker each time it happens.

We truly are sitting on a unique precipice of human understanding as technology becomes increasingly more and more complex. Change happens before we've settled in and accepted the previous change. Then the more connected we become, the less blind we become to other people's problems. Thus ushering more change while you are dealing with domestic change. I can see why it is so terrifying. Personally, I love it and find it fascinating as an observer.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yeah I just felt the need to elaborate, dunno know why.

I guess sometimes it's a pebble tossed into the pond and other times it's a boulder crumbling off a cliff or maybe the pebble was just the warning.

My mind is metaphorical mode this morning I guess.

a reply to: Kali74

Just be excited to be alive during these times. Very exciting times to be living in. I can't understand why so many spend so much time and energy seeking out the end of the world. Seems like such a waste when you are missing out on all that is going on.

Though again, I can see why things are so terrifying to some people. Those people need to go reread the story of Pandora's Box though. Great message there that sums up how the modern world is headed. Not that these things are necessarily evil though. Just that once the idea is out there, it isn't going back into the box. So trying to bring the world back to those times is only going to result in failure and frustration.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

It is exciting, exhilarating, terrifying, frustrating and beautiful all at once. Sometimes there's several wins and losses all in one day. Some days you soar and some days you crash. Sometimes you watch and others you dive in.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Krazysh0t

It is exciting, exhilarating, terrifying, frustrating and beautiful all at once. Sometimes there's several wins and losses all in one day. Some days you soar and some days you crash. Sometimes you watch and others you dive in.

And that's the problem. The internet shows ALL of that. At your fingertips. It's all just a google search away.

originally posted by: muse7
This election season has been crazy.

Two ideologies and no single candidate seems to be standing in the middle. Any candidate that dares reach out to the other side is instantly scrutinized.

While I might lean to the left, I don't consider myself an ideologue. I recognize that our political system depends on compromise from BOTH sides to be able to function. Moderate candidates win elections, that's why I think Hillary Clinton will win the presidency, while there are many conspiracy theories floating around about her, she is indeed a moderate.

Many, on both sides, do not believe this is a time to reach out. That moderation here is simply an excuse, a phantom a bunch of bs. Whats more is compromise is not always the key thing the important thing. Compromise accomplishes the primary goal of one side but only in half steps and thats fine until that side gets total power like the democrats had during the passage of AHCA. At which time they basically ran over any opposition, having the numbers. So no the "moderate" this is a fallback position the dems use when they are politically weak.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

But I love that

originally posted by: muse7
This election season has been crazy.

Two ideologies and no single candidate seems to be standing in the middle. Any candidate that dares reach out to the other side is instantly scrutinized.

While I might lean to the left, I don't consider myself an ideologue. I recognize that our political system depends on compromise from BOTH sides to be able to function. Moderate candidates win elections, that's why I think Hillary Clinton will win the presidency, while there are many conspiracy theories floating around about her, she is indeed a moderate.

Bernie Sanders does have good ideas and I would not hesitate to vote for him if he somehow manages to win the nomination, I do think that some institutions in our country need to be socialized such as healthcare, but I also believe in the free market albeit with strong regulations in place to protect the workers and consumers.

The only candidate on the GOP side that I wouldn't mind if he won would be John Kasich, sadly he doesn't stand a chance.

While I might support Hillary Clinton, it's not without reservations. I do wish she wouldn't have accepted those six figures paychecks to give speeches. I do wish she wouldn't have voted for the Iraq war, but countless other Democrats also voted for it so a vote wouldn't have mattered. However as time passes by I find myself liking her more and more. There is a clear reason why Republicans keep attacking her, they are afraid of her and she has never once backed down despite the crap storm that she has endured from the Republicans these past few decades.

The people who are screaming "Bern it all down" are mainly entitled young white men who have nothing to lose. Just like a large majority of Trump supporters are young entitled men who watch anime 24/7 and are insanely misogynistic. That's why these two candidates trail by large margins amongst minorities.

The liberals saying that they will throw a temper tantrum and not vote because their pipe dream candidate didn't get nominated obviously have no problem with a Republican president possibly having the chance to appoint several supreme court judges. These are the people who can afford not to have Bernie Sanders elected, they are not the ones on the Republican's chopping block. They sound exactly like those crazy tea party nuts screaming that Ted Cruz isn't conservative enough.

I can't remember the last time someone from either party won the presidency who was ideologically pure. Ideologues do not win elections. Until we learn how to work with one another, we will continue to have gridlock in our political system.

Its the career politicians like Kasich and the Dynasty politicians like the Clintons that have brought the USA and the west down.

And you ask why extreme candidates are being considered?

Maybe if DC was not the hotbed of corruption and ineffectiveness that it is today people would not have lost faith with the establismnet and not looking at the extreme candidates?

Trump, Cruz, Carson and Sanders are the fault of Obama, The Clintons, The Bushes and even Regan.

originally posted by: ketsuko

Sometimes, independence and individuality are actually good things.

And sometimes it’s just stupidity, pig headedness and holds a country back.

Let’s take US healthcare. Its one of the most expensive and worst systems in the developed world.

The USA has a lot to learn.

No it doesn’t have to go full socialized with government controlled hospitals either.

Take Hong Kong and Singapore for good examples of healthcare that provides the best in the world but is 100% free market but also provides for all.

a reply to: Kali74

The issue with most of this is that less then 50% vote normally.

With this in mind do you think the ones that don't vote even bother with taking a poll? I would think they don't.

Where as a=ALMOST all liberals do take polls. Liberals are activist by nature and being activist are WAY more likely to do thing such as sign petitions and take polls. This lead us to the theory that ALMOST all of the 50+% that do NOT vote are not liberals. That does not mean they are all conservatives, but lets go on. About 70% of the US population declare themselves as Christians. Christians tend to be conservative. Add to this that liberals tend to amass in high population areas and the east/west coast. (Don't have a clue why this is. Acess to Starbucks maybe? ) If you have ever traveled extensively around rural US you will see that these areas tend to be very much conservative. Againg going back to the idea that most of them just want to go on with their lives and be left alone.


It is true that with out being able to "poll" that 50% or so that does not vote, data is not truly reliable. But if you add in all the other issues, I would be willing to but a couple bucks on that 70% conservative number being in the ball park. I would also put a couple buck that on certain INDIVIDUAL issues that number is probably way off, but I'm talking across the board items.

Anyway that's my though process. As I've said before I would be wiling to guess that most conservatives would follow a Libertarian path in their life styles. (Even if most don't even khow what that is. IE that not paying any attention to politics thing until you get wacked over the head with stuff to may times. )

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Moderates died because it is really easy to whine about things on the internet, and the complacent don't have anything to whine about.

OR...

Maybe moderates realized a long time ago that bickering back and forth over silly political games is a complete waste of time.

Time that could be better spent doing things like scrubbing the mildew off of one's shower curtain, or digging out the lint from one's belly button.

a reply to: Kali74


Being a political moderate or the politics of moderation has become a "thing" just like anything else. Easy to identify with its own look and brand of stink. Independence are on the rise as the last dodge of the confining label and has more to do with that % that really don't want to known as a type of tool.