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originally posted by: SLAYER69
The forum in discussion was one of the ones that drew me to ATS in the first place. After joining and reading Pro, Con, This, That or the other opinions, threads more often than not would deteriorate to mud slinging, name calling with facts and interesting information on either side being shoved aside and it became very apparent for me a forum to avoid.

It has stayed that way for most of my years here at ATS.

Sad really.

I am shocked that people would ever believe an event like this COULD ever be civilly talked about.

That day on an ongoing basis shows all that is wrong with the world, how people are completely capable of being brainwashed, that governments can be controlled by all manner of outsiders/insiders, and just in what ways the human mind works.

For instance, on the topic of collapsing buildings, I can look at them and see no collapse is ever happening, but a totally obliterating vaporizing exploding building.

Somehow, others have been told that this is a collapse , and find themselves actually convinced that a collapse is possible in this manner.

We can see why this is the most hot button topic to EVER be seen on TV and for that matter maybe in the history of the UNIVERSE due to the nature of its being shown so often.

It showed us how brainwashed people can really be, and how they have to make choices BEFOREHAND, that lead to the lies they will , or will not swallow.

Lastly, they show us that we really have no control over our reality, because the rest of the masses are so hopelessly programmed one way or another, that they are unable to make clear informed decisions.

The complexity of this Illusion blows the minds of most, but not for me, it is all too easy.

This topic has been the exact same from day one, it is an exercise in judgement, and in being judged, but by whom I wonder ??

originally posted by: ParasuvO
Lastly, they show us that we really have no control over our reality, because the rest of the masses are so hopelessly programmed one way or another, that they are unable to make clear informed decisions.

How do you not have any control over your own reality due to people not agreeing with theories that the Truth Movement advocates? How does this impact your own reality?

originally posted by: ParasuvO
For instance, on the topic of collapsing buildings, I can look at them and see no collapse is ever happening, but a totally obliterating vaporizing exploding building.

Yet engineers and other professionals can look at the same pictures and see the catastrophic failure of the building as a result of a plane crashing into it and unchecked fires.

Some people have been told this was due to explosives, or mini nuclear weapons etc. so they find themselves convinced that is what it was, whilst ignoring the experts, as what the experts know does not fit the reality they have created.

It appears some people just want to believe it was a conspiracy done by the Bush government, no matter what the evidence shows.

a reply to: ParasuvO

I am shocked that people would ever believe an event like this COULD ever be civilly talked about.

Having a civil discussion about any topic, no mater how much views on it differ, is not hard at all. Those who can't do it, don't want to do it and they simply want to force others to agree with them.

Debating emotional issues requires self control. Getting angry because others don't agree is a weakness. In fact it closes the door to any chance a person may have to make the case for their opinion. Who wants to debate someone with such little self control, let alone consider their side?

When an opinion reaches the level of fanaticism, most rational people just tune it out. When it is presented civilly and rationally using evidence and critical thinking, people will listen.

originally posted by: hellobruce
It appears some people just want to believe it was a conspiracy, no matter what the evidence shows.

I'll just quote SO in response:

"Why is that?

Because no credible source has investigated the more plausible theories that are in conflict with the "Official Story."

a reply to: Blaine91555


Well, that was all done, and in civil manners thousands of times, then people came in and called everyone kooks and conspiracy nuts because no official groups in government or the world have the kahunas to take on such a task.

They are afraid and angry, so they just rather dismiss it.

What makes you think you know when a person is angry, btw.....

Some people have a totally different sense of displaying anger, it looks like this is thought of as a school playground, and it uses similar rulesets: I.E.

Those that agree with CANON, shall be allowed to Lord it over the Weaker ones, who do not believe our religion.

This is typical behavior, punishing those who have been attacked.

"How Dare They Retaliate" !

Same in Sports, let the first transgression go, punish the response.

I am sorry if you do not know what I am talking about, or even see it in the world, but it exists, and is used by all Bullying groups in the World to enforce the power they have.

I feel very sad that people want to defend the dishonesty in this world, I guess though its a survival instinct

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

a reply to: SkepticOverlord If I had my wish, you would apply strict T&C rules to all of ATS. It might just become a little closer to the place for intelligent discussion and fun that it once was. I don't have any hope that time will turn backward, nor do I want it to, but I am not a member of Twitter, Facebook or any other social media for a reason... I would love to have a good reason to be an active member here again. And the one difference between all the others and ATS is the T&Cs and the implementation thereof.

I myself just returned after a couple of months because I was treated so hatefully by another member that it made me not want to come back. Of course, I reported it but still...this isn't the same place anymore, and it's not only limited to the 9/11 forum. I also wish that this same consideration would be given to every forum...especially the more volatile of them.

We've got people being positively venomous toward members on the UFO, Grey Area, Paranormal and several other forums for posting their experiences. I endured it myself last year twice...had members straight up tell me that I need medication, I need to be locked up in a mental institution, etc., but if we don't share the info we have, nothing can be learned from it. And because of things like that, people are afraid to post. And it affects the quality of discussions all around, because members who used to participate don't bother anymore.

Of course, the 9/11 forum is the most horrendous, but the vitriol and harrassment is rampant all over the site. I feel like the world's biggest snitch if I report a post, but if we don't do it, this will never stop, so I guess that's the only answer. That or leave the site altogether, which I really don't want to do.

originally posted by: hellobruce
It appears some people just want to believe it was a conspiracy, no matter what the evidence shows.

And, by the way, the official theory is that Al Qaeda -- a group -- conspired to commit the atrocities of 9/11. That theory maintains that NINETEEN people hijacked planes and crashed them that day.

con·spir·a·cy
noun
a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.

The official theory is a conspiracy theory. Can we please stop pretending the official story is not a conspiracy theory?

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: ParasuvO
For instance, on the topic of collapsing buildings, I can look at them and see no collapse is ever happening, but a totally obliterating vaporizing exploding building.

Yet engineers and other professionals can look at the same pictures and see the catastrophic failure of the building as a result of a plane crashing into it and unchecked fires.

Some people have been told this was due to explosives, or mini nuclear weapons etc. so they find themselves convinced that is what it was, whilst ignoring the experts, as what the experts know does not fit the reality they have created.

It appears some people just want to believe it was a conspiracy, no matter what the evidence shows.

No they don't, by the time I am done with them on a personal level, By the Way I have these conversations in public EVERYWHERE I go, I will tell ANYONE they are wrong on this topic, and to their face and have done so.

What I discovered was, the people had actually been programmed in the months afterwards, by all manner of propaganda, to not even SEE the towers falling.

They did not even NOTICE the fact they buildings are vaporizing, the narratives offered them do not mention it either.

Total disconnects between logic were and are easily formed.

I have been able to completely and totally reprogram THOUSANDS of people to lift the veil of astonishment from their eyes, and now almost no one around believes those towers "collapsed" ,not in my sphere of influence.

Honestly, most people brains I discovered had entertained all manner of subthoughts, like bombs, destruction, bombs, terrorists, RUSSIANS etc.

It is a sad commentary that even one person on this planet, can actually look at that and say, "hey look ! A collapse!"

a reply to: ParasuvO

Never even occurred to me that the buildings might fall that day. I remember realizing the first tower was "vaporizing" before the reporter I was watching realized what was happening.

It was shocking and unexpected because, structurally speaking, the tower appeared completely stable until it suddenly vaporized.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: hellobruce
It appears some people just want to believe it was a conspiracy, no matter what the evidence shows.

I'll just quote SO in response:

"Why is that?

Because no credible source has investigated the more plausible theories that are in conflict with the "Official Story."

I *think* the quote might be out of context. What are the ''More plausible theories'' referred to? This quote might give some context.

The irritating thing in this maddening massive topic of 9/11 Conspiracies is that it's possible to accept major aspects of the "Official Story" and still propose/investigate 9/11 conspiracy theories.

The biggest being the very real possibility that the majority of "9/11 conspiracy theories" were created by government operators to ensure the real conspiracies were never investigated. Information on "The Frenchman," who literally started it all before the Web Fairy, has been purged from the Internet. There was solid information that he was working at a PR firm connected to US clandestine agencies. The majority of "no plane", "TV fakery", "missile at the pentagon", and "bombs in the WTC" began with his videos.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Hopefully he can clarify this one way or the other.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
I remember realizing the first tower was "vaporizing"

The building was not vaporised...

It was shocking and unexpected because, structurally speaking, the tower appeared completely stable until it suddenly vaporized.

No, from a poor definition video it may have looked like that, but on the ground the professionals knew it was not stable.

At 9:30 am, a FDNY Chief Officer inside WTC 1 feels the building move and makes the decision that the building is no longer safe. • At 9:49 am, NYPD helicopters provide a radio report stating that “large pieces” are falling from WTC 2. • At 10:07 am, NYPD aviation units warn that WTC 1 may collapse. • At 10:20 am, NYPD aviation unit reports that WTC 1 is leaning to the south. Source FDNY Assistant Chief Joseph Callan: "Approximately 40 minutes after I arrived in the lobby, I made a decision that the building was no longer safe. And that was based on the conditions in the lobby, large pieces of plaster falling, all the 20 foot high glass panels on the exterior of the lobby were breaking. There was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason on the handy talky I gave the order for all Fire Department units to leave the north tower." Source Callan: "For me to make the decision to take our firefighters out of the building with civilians still in it, that was very tough for me, but I did that because I did not think the building was safe any longer, and that was just prior to 9:30."–Source

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Never even occurred to me that the buildings might fall that day. I remember realizing the first tower was "vaporizing" before the reporter I was watching realized what was happening. It was shocking and unexpected because, structurally speaking, the tower appeared completely stable until it suddenly vaporized.

Same here. I was perplexed when they said planes crashed into it because it looked exactly like a building demolition...it looked like an explosion from beneath, not an impact from above. And it still does, to this day.

a reply to: ParasuvO

When someone calls a person brainwashed it seems a bit angry to me.

You mention bullying. Seems like anyone calling people brainwashed, shills or any other name is definitive bullying.

It is wrong minded and shows a lack of self control when its done by either side of the debate. It does not matter which side is doing it, its not the way to engage in debate.

a reply to: DenyObfuscation

I didn't use the quote out of context. Honestly, the only thing I adamantly question about 9/11 is who and why.

And no suspects other than Al Qaeda were investigated and no motive other than 'Muslims hate our freedom' was ever investigated.

Yet, there are plausible other suspects who had compelling motive and had the means and opportunity to commit the events of 9/11. They were not investigated by people who would necessarily be deemed credible.

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
I remember realizing the first tower was "vaporizing"

The building was not vaporised...

It was shocking and unexpected because, structurally speaking, the tower appeared completely stable until it suddenly vaporized.

No, from a poor definition video it may have looked like that, but on the ground the professionals knew it was not stable.

At 9:30 am, a FDNY Chief Officer inside WTC 1 feels the building move and makes the decision that the building is no longer safe. • At 9:49 am, NYPD helicopters provide a radio report stating that “large pieces” are falling from WTC 2. • At 10:07 am, NYPD aviation units warn that WTC 1 may collapse. • At 10:20 am, NYPD aviation unit reports that WTC 1 is leaning to the south. Source FDNY Assistant Chief Joseph Callan: "Approximately 40 minutes after I arrived in the lobby, I made a decision that the building was no longer safe. And that was based on the conditions in the lobby, large pieces of plaster falling, all the 20 foot high glass panels on the exterior of the lobby were breaking. There was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason on the handy talky I gave the order for all Fire Department units to leave the north tower." Source Callan: "For me to make the decision to take our firefighters out of the building with civilians still in it, that was very tough for me, but I did that because I did not think the building was safe any longer, and that was just prior to 9:30."–Source

Perhaps. But, on my television, I never saw the towers waver beforehand. It was, indeed, shocking and unexpected to me.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Those are my memories as well.
A close friend of ours traveled for work...I think he was stuck at O'hare that day.
He called me at my office to see where I and those I loved were and if we were safe.
His exact words were "terrorists have slammed a plane into the trade center!" "Better get a TV going!".

I found a TV and asked the maintenance guys to hook it up...I think I was in panic mode (sort of). I called over the radios that if anyone felt the need to go home...just go...I grabbed my Dad and said, you and Mom go to the house, I will meet you at home soon...

My children were at the sitter...miles away from me...I called and checked on things and told them I would be there soon.

When the first tower fell, I looked at the coverage with a feeling of "how could this be?". "How could an airplane cause this?"
When the second tower fell, we were just incredulous...
I called my old man. He was out in the middle of the swamp (FL) and I asked him to come straight home after work...
I think all of us (my immediate group at the time) thought that America was under attack...

We all met, at home, a few hours later and huddled around the TV, scared, confused, scarred from what we had seen, scared for the future, and just downright sick over it all.

I understand the passion. I understand the disbelief. I understand that it changed all of us forever.
My family has a plan for "emergencies" now because of what we witnessed that day.
II think most Americans are "on guard" now because of it.

It shook our psyche to the core...I don't know that any of us alive during that time will ever recover completely nor ever be the same again. Or should be.

I understand the passion.
I understand the disbelief and I
appreciate those who dedicate their lives/time to uncovering the "truth" whatever that may turn out to be/or not be...

If planes, jet fuel, laws of physics, etc. DID cause the towers and WTC7 to fall, there are still unanswered questions about "why" these things were "allowed" to happen or "slipped under the radar" or whatever.

I suppose this could be the wrong place or off topic...I just felt the need to let it go...

And that was based on the conditions in the lobby, large pieces of plaster falling, all the 20 foot high glass panels on the exterior of the lobby were breaking.

How could this be, the lobby was destroyed from the get go.. reading the oral history's of the first responder's is worth while.

graphics8.nytimes.com...

What I discovered was, the people had actually been programmed in the months afterwards, by all manner of propaganda, to not even SEE the towers falling.

a reply to: ParasuvO

I believe you, back in 1996 I was flying to Boston, as we approached NYC the pilot suddenly made an evasive maneuver and we lost altitude. I looked out the window and saw this dark scene with debris on the ground, I couldn't believe my eyes, None of the other passengers seemed to notice as we were only below the clouds for a moment so I just wrote it off as Pareidolia.

originally posted by: wildb
How could this be, the lobby was destroyed from the get go

So no one could get into the lobby from the start? Just exactly what do you mean by destroyed? I just showed you what a first responder said about the lobby....