A queer finding: gender isn’t binary

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: Darth_Prime

No, Gender is not Binary, the West are the ones who created a two Gender Binary systemcreated a two Gender Binary system

Really ? I thought evolution did that .Just damn . You have destroyed all my scientific knowledge with one small post..

Question then. If evolution is perfect what about the intersexed hermaphorites? Woudnt if it was a Evolutionary imperative there would not be any of those?

You , yourself know the answer to that...(if you know anything about genetics) and you misspelled that horribly.

Nothing in nature/biology is truly binary. In fact I would make the claim that the concept of binary is man made.

Even electronic/computer information is not as binary as people think. While it is true that the calculations are done in base 2 number system, the way signals are encoded are not so binary. The difference between 0 and 1 in digital signals are done with a voltage difference range and not a strict value as many envision it. Three state logic is common in electronic logic with the third state being "float".

Now think about the human nervous system. It is an electro-chemical system that is anything but binary in nature. Our brains depend on neurotransmitters floating around until they attach to their equivalent receptor. Take a look at how we regulate our metabolism. It is very analog and Rube Goldberg like in how it functions.

Why would one think that gender is binary when everything else about the human body is not?

Binary means a propositional statement.

True or False, one or zero?

//edit
Saying you are not a man or woman, is a binary statement . . . It is fundamentally binary and such ideology (binary/ propositional) is essential to the entire argument used against a binary understanding.
//edit

Propositional logic is the basis of just about all human knowledge and certainly all advances in the sciences.

Denouncing binary is silly.

-FBB

a reply to: Metallicus

Thanks for not disappointing me and showing the kind of person you are

disinfo.com...
In pre-colonial Andean culture, the Incas worshipped the chuqui chinchay, a dual-gendered god

disinfo.com...
The mahu could be biological males or females inhabiting a gender role somewhere between or encompassing both the masculine and feminine. Their social role is sacred as educators and promulgators of ancient traditions and rituals.

Many Gods and Goddesses that were worshiped were Dual Gendered, or could switch, different cultures had peopl ethat were Third Gender as priest or educators

a reply to: Freija

A person's GENDER is between the ears, not between the legs.

Biological Gender (sex) includes physical attributes such as external genitalia, sex chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, and internal reproductive structures. At birth, it is used to assign sex, that is, to identify individuals as male or female.

It looks like the interwebs disagree with your assessment.

originally posted by: FriedBabelBroccoli
Denouncing binary is silly.
-FBB

Can't say I can make much sense of what you're trying to say. Denouncing the binary would be silly because it exists. Does everyone fit perfectly into this black & white clearly defined binary? No, some are in the middle or more toward one end of the spectrum or the other.

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: FriedBabelBroccoli
Denouncing binary is silly.
-FBB

Can't say I can make much sense of what you're trying to say. Denouncing the binary would be silly because it exists. Does everyone fit perfectly into this black & white clearly defined binary? No, some are in the middle or more toward one end of the spectrum or the other.

I am glad you are curious, I usually deal with this form of logic in maths more so then language so here goes.

Propositional Logic

Propositional logic, also known as sentential logic and statement logic, is the branch of logic that studies ways of joining and/or modifying entire propositions, statements or sentences to form more complicated propositions, statements or sentences, as well as the logical relationships and properties that are derived from these methods of combining or altering statements. In propositional logic, the simplest statements are considered as indivisible units, and hence, propositional logic does not study those logical properties and relations that depend upon parts of statements that are not themselves statements on their own, such as the subject and predicate of a statement. The most thoroughly researched branch of propositional logic is classical truth-functional propositional logic, which studies logical operators and connectives that are used to produce complex statements whose truth-value depends entirely on the truth-values of the simpler statements making them up, and in which it is assumed that every statement is either true or false and not both. However, there are other forms of propositional logic in which other truth-values are considered, or in which there is consideration of connectives that are used to produce statements whose truth-values depend not simply on the truth-values of the parts, but additional things such as their necessity, possibility or relatedness to one another.

So the entire non-binary movement reverses the the binary male/female to say they are not entirely one but a "spectrum."

A spectrum in this case would merely be a ratio of the binary male/female.

There is no spectrum between male/female, but the ratio can form a spectrum.

This sort of process used to be taught in math, philosophy, language, but has since been removed for who knows what reason?

-FBB

a reply to: Metallicus
Hey, I can't help it if our stupid language as well as some stupid people use the word sex and gender as if they mean the same thing. Even in your quote they say "Biological Gender (SEX).

A person's gender, their sense of being masculine or feminine, man or woman is psychological, emotional or if you will, spiritual. If you had your dangly bits cut off, wouldn't you still feel and act like a man? Where does that sense of what you are come from?

a reply to: Freija

My DNA would still be male regardless of my bits.

a reply to: Freija

A lot of folks could not care less about this issue because there are so many other interests in their lives. Further much of the desired solutions don't really fit well with a large body of established cultural norms or frequently observed human behaviour.

Tricky topic to even approach a solution for.

-FBB

a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli

This discussion has wavered back and forth into talking about physical/anatomical differences and/or similarities between the sexes and the concepts/constructs of gender. I do not know which one you are referencing?

Maths and logic are rarely good tools when attempting to describe the ways of the human psyche. Evidence has been presented that a physiological spectrum does exist. Is it inconceivable or even unlikely that a psychological spectrum would not also exist as well? If we're all so locked into a binary, where does that put people that are gender fluid or genderqueer or otherwise gender non-conforming?

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli

This discussion has wavered back and forth into talking about physical/anatomical differences and/or similarities between the sexes and the concepts/constructs of gender. I do not know which one you are referencing?

Maths and logic are rarely good tools when attempting to describe the ways of the human psyche. Evidence has been presented that a physiological spectrum does exist. Is it inconceivable or even unlikely that a psychological spectrum would not also exist as well? If we're all so locked into a binary, where does that put people that are gender fluid or genderqueer or otherwise gender non-conforming?

Gender fluid and genderqueer are topics that come more from cultural studies, a field which from my personal experience does not engage in discrete (think defined, or how a you sit in a chair but don't fall through, both the you and a chair are discrete in this case) thought.

The physiological spectrum comes from a binary and discrete logic. Psychology generally relies on ratios to define behaviours or perceptions but generally has extremely poor definitions.

So what I am saying is that unless the psychology utilizes actual physical processes and can prove their effects then they cannot be considered in the scientific realm and are completely subject to opinion.

The claim that science is saying gender isn't binary does not meet the standards of science today. I don't think the concepts are bad (personally, the two transgender folks I know I feel could benefit from simply believing there is a science based justification) but there just isn't a rigorous proof and it is way too soon for any claims to be made.

-FBB

TL:dr
Psychology has poor definitions and isn't rigorous enough (yet) to provide a proof of such ideas which would hold up to any physical science standard.

originally posted by: Metallicus
My DNA would still be male regardless of my bits.

Cling to whatever you'd like or want to believe and what makes you comfortable. If you think your DNA controls your mind, your thoughts, your personality, feelings and your identity that's all cool. I think that many would agree it's a little more complicated than that.

originally posted by: FriedBabelBroccoli
a reply to: Freija

A lot of folks could not care less about this issue because there are so many other interests in their lives. Further much of the desired solutions don't really fit well with a large body of established cultural norms or frequently observed human behaviour.

Tricky topic to even approach a solution for.

-FBB

Solution for what exactly?

originally posted by: Greven
a reply to: Freija

Men and Women.
Black and White.
Good and Bad.
Right and Wrong.

Etc...

So close..!!
Here, let me fix that for you.....

Women and men.
Black and White.
Good and Bad.
Right and Wrong.

Now we have everything classified in the proper column as today's learning institutions want everyone to understand...

👍

More on topic,
Another study to tell us the obvious...

a reply to: Darth_Prime

Thanks for not disappointing me and showing the kind of person you are...

If you wish to deviate from the topic and talk about each other let me know. I have plenty of thoughts on you and your lifestyle as well. We should probably do it via PM since I doubt it would remain T&C compliant.

a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli

Still not sure if you're talking about apples or oranges? Penises/vaginas (sex) or man/woman (gender)?

The claim that science is saying gender isn't binary does not meet the standards of science today

Yes, that is exactly what they're saying and what the OP is about - that the accepted standards of science today, that there is a binary, is wrong.

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: FriedBabelBroccoli
a reply to: Freija

A lot of folks could not care less about this issue because there are so many other interests in their lives. Further much of the desired solutions don't really fit well with a large body of established cultural norms or frequently observed human behaviour.

Tricky topic to even approach a solution for.

-FBB

Solution for what exactly?

The prejudices or negative emotions they face and feel.

-FBB

a reply to: Metallicus

"de la Chapelle syndrome"

en.wikipedia.org...

www.medicinenet.com...


So, you can have "Male Bits" and "Female DNA"

see, it's not only Black and White, or "Male and Female"

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli

Still not sure if you're talking about apples or oranges? Penises/vaginas (sex) or man/woman (gender)?

The claim that science is saying gender isn't binary does not meet the standards of science today

Yes, that is exactly what they're saying and what the OP is about - that the accepted standards of science today, that there is a binary, is wrong.

The parts of the brain that are activated are associated with male or female hormones and development. They can be affected by conditions in the environment as well as standard gene expression.

The culturally understood gender binary does not correlate to the activated centers of the brain as of yet.

-FBB