A queer finding: gender isn’t binary

a reply to: BlueJacket

Yep...ALWAYS follow the money.

a reply to: Glinda

Or maybe follow Logic, and history, and various cultures.. and i guess according to the article Science

Look, of course every person is going to be different. The whole LGBT movement is built upon reading between the lines. Besides the fact that I'm extremely confident that the entire LGBT movement is simply a tool used by the progressive left in their mad dash for power, it is obsessed with being supposedely 'all inclusive'

Men do things that virtually every society has defined as masculine since before recorded history.
Women do things that virtually every society has defined as feminine since before recorded history.

If you think that there has been a concerted effort for the last 5 thousand years to disenfranchise women, only two things are possible:
Men are incredibly inept as they haven't, after 300 generations, completely subjugated women.

or the more likely scenario:

Men typically do certain things, and women typically do certain things, it's just the way it is, and outside of Progressives beliefs, are not "right" or "wrong", they simply ARE. And just like evolution, this method of dividing societal tasks is what became the dominant setup. Their have been experiments that have proven this to be true. Young children, who are purposefully not exposed to 'gender norm' toys, more often than not, preferred the toys that societal norms predicted they would anyway (ie, boys wanted to play with trucks, girls wanted to play with barbies)

Again, it's not wrong that a male is more likely to take an interest in mechanics
and it's not wrong that a female is more likely to take an interest in interior design

They just ARE.

Perhaps a better way to describe this and sort of ease people in would be comparing it to a tomboy.

So, some women do things that are traditionally manly. Some dudes do things that are traditionally feminine.

It doesn't mean you're gay or less of whatever you identify with, it just means that brains and people are more complicated than previously thought.

This just seems like it's rather obvious. I can't think of much in life that is actually black and white.

So some guys are into fashion, some women love doing home repair. That doesn't make them automatically gay or the opposite gender, it just means that not everyone is wired the exact same way or traditional, so they're moved a little on the spectrum.

Gender isn't sex. Gender is in your head, sex is between your legs. I don't believe that you can fully transition sex, but I do believe that some people attempt to get as close as they can because in their head, they're the wrong gender. Not sure if I think that it's a mental disorder or what, but it sure is't hurting me one way or the other. I can't fully wrap my head around it, but I also can't understand gay people. That doesn't mean it's not a legitimate actual thing though. My inability to understand fully doesn't make it less of a thing. Who would CHOOSE to be gay or transgender (and this is kind of off topic)?

I consider myself somewhat conservative, and part of that is my desire to be left the f### alone as long as I'm not hurting anybody. If I want to keep my guns and my religion, I better grow up and let others live how they wish.

This isn't surprising news. There have been effeminate men throughout the ages, there have been masculine women throughout the ages. The brain isn't a 100% kind of thing. We all differ. We're not clones, we don't all agree on every point, so why would we think there isn't a spectrum with gender? There's a spectrum with everything else involving the brain.

a reply to: chuck258

The example you provided with the toys is based on physiological development where the boys are generally attracted to the moving parts while the girls are more attracted to colours.

The initial interest or attraction is physiological, but continued interest later in development is less strongly associated with sex differences.

The 'history' of gender roles became highly unstable once significant material wealth was accumulated by societies. Material wealth and population density have been shown to have enormous influence on the types of 'roles' which develop.

The whole topic has too much input from competing interests and really needs greater examination.

-FBB

So when are they going to put the blood testing machine outside the loo with the armed guard making sure the right people go in the right loo?.
Whats the problem with ladies who used to be men using a ladies loo and visa versa? I see no problem why not be adults about it eh?.
I think the people in a huff about them are worried they may fancy them so don't want them near them.

originally posted by: wasaka
This quote stood out to me from the recent article:

Although the team only looked at brain structure, and not function, their findings suggest that we all lie along a continuum of what are traditionally viewed as male and female characteristics. “The study is very helpful in providing biological support for something that we’ve known for some time – that gender isn’t binary,” says Meg John Barker, a psychologist at the Open University in Milton Keynes, UK.

The findings will still come as a surprise to many, including scientists, says Bruce McEwen at the Rockefeller University in New York. “We are beginning to realise the complexity of what we have traditionally understood to be ‘male’ and ‘female’, and this study is the first step in that direction,” he says. “I think it will change peoples’ minds.”

Genderless future

Joel envisions a future in which individuals are not so routinely classified based on gender alone. “We separate girls and boys, men and women all the time,” she says. “It’s wrong, not just politically, but scientifically – everyone is different.”

Joel’s findings can be used to help many people understand the non-binary nature of gender, says Barker. After all, some people don’t identify as either male or female, and others feel their gender identity shift over time. “It’s a shame that people’s experience alone isn’t enough for us to recognise as a society that non-binary gender is legitimate.”

“We need to start thinking a lot more carefully about how much weight we give to gender as a defining feature of human beings, and stop asking for it in situations where it simply isn’t relevant,” says Barker.

So I guess that means no queer brains either?
Perhaps it takes a queer brain to publish a study like this.

What do you say, ATS, is gender binary, or not?

Only Yes or No will accepted as an answer =)

Who are you quoting exactly? I see no source. In those quotes, I see no proof of the claim (logical or otherwise).

Maybe you want to add some links to research done on this topic? If not, you should take your sad attempt to push propaganda right on back to tumblr/4chan/wherever you came from.

a reply to: OhOkYeah

F u

originally posted by: wasaka
a reply to: OhOkYeah

F u

Not even a good troll.

a reply to: wasaka

Can you post the source please?.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: wasaka

Can you post the source please?.

They won't because there is no scientific proof of the claims. I had searched before and I just finished a quick search. There is nothing worth noting. If there is any well done research out there, it's extremely hard to find due to all the propaganda you have to sift through on the internet.

In fact, every scientific reference I've found only shows that gender is binary.

Hell, there isn't even a well thought out logical argument supporting it.

Now, I'd love if we were gender fluid. Being able to get ourselves pregnant would be a huge game changer for society and the future of humanity. Unfortunately, it is not true. Only mental confusion is present here.

a reply to: OhOkYeah

You were looking at all the wrong places.

Use the best tool for genderspecific science: tumblr.
You will have to educate yourself, as you will be told numerous times, but it will help you to see ALL the genders. ALL of them. And maybe feel the fee-fee to introduce more.

I like the otherkins, especially this one:
Pronouns: BRRT/BRRRT/BRRTS/BHRRTself

So tired of this argument...

If you have male sex organs, you are a male.

If you have female sex organs you are a female.

It's really that simple. I don't promote mental illnesses.

originally posted by: ManFromEurope
a reply to: OhOkYeah

You were looking at all the wrong places.

Use the best tool for genderspecific science: tumblr.
You will have to educate yourself, as you will be told numerous times, but it will help you to see ALL the genders. ALL of them. And maybe feel the fee-fee to introduce more.

I like the otherkins, especially this one:
Pronouns: BRRT/BRRRT/BRRTS/BHRRTself

ah, thanks!

I completely missed that. I will have to refer to that in the future when trying to understand what goes through the mind of bored wealthy people with victim complex.

I feel the truth is somewhere in the middle. I understand that culture has a way of becoming invisible, to where even open minded parents may not realize they are influencing a gender binary upon their toddlers (there was a study on this actually.) So it may be impossible to ever to study a baby human's predilections in an environment removed of cultural influence and thus gender binary. These binaries also may become a source of persecution to people. So this is an important topic in trying to set up a more enlightened human culture.

However,

I changed Master's degrees after one year at University because of some of the naivete that has become dogma and creed regarding this and many other issues. Approaching 40, and having experienced many aspects of life, from the ghetto, to New Age communal movements, hung out with the rich and poor and everywhere in-between, I found some (not all) of the University social science professors extremely naive in their dogma. In fact, there is a sheltered middle class white European bourgeois underpinning to many of their arguments that they fail to see (and almost never criticize while they criticize everyone else) that underpins their perspectives on culture.

So for one, while gender fluidity is an aspect in many traditional cultures it is still built upon a metaphysics of binaries, a male and female, and the power of combining the two, but you can't combine the two unless the binary already exists. Thus the I-ching has yin and yang... The West didn't invent gender binaries, it was taught to all peoples through nature. Primitive humans would look into the field and see that male lions had beards and chilled while female lions hunted. Certain female insects kill the male after mating. Look into nature and even if it is fluid sometimes (and fluidity doesn't mean a binary doesn't exist) you still see a binary in the natural world.

The problem with social science academics is they live their lives surrounded by books, in small university offices worried about tenure and publication, going home in air conditioned sedans and then watching netflix over a glass of wine. So ideas like observing the natural world never enters the arguments about culture. Then again, I was around a particularly close minded group of social science academics. They didn't even want neuroscience or any hard science written into our papers because the hard sciences are biased and only deconstruction of culture and texts were valid. Some BS. Their hearts are in the right place and I myself am a liberal. But their culture is just as heavy in their writings and philosophies as the cultures they think they deconstruct. They can't see how their own sheltered middle class European bourgeois culture shapes their arguments and ideas. And I saw how it gets passed down to the next group of kids who never have a life outside of school, from HS to college, to a master's, to a phd, to tenure track, they only know the insides of books written by their ilk. Their is a middle ground to all this.

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: Darth_Prime

No, Gender is not Binary, the West are the ones who created a two Gender Binary systemcreated a two Gender Binary system

Really ? I thought evolution did that .Just damn . You have destroyed all my scientific knowledge with one small post..

Question then. If evolution is perfect what about the intersexed hermaphorites? Woudnt if it was a Evolutionary imperative there would not be any of those?

You , yourself know the answer to that...(if you know anything about genetics) and you misspelled that horribly.

Well if everyone was able to be a breeding pair the world would be over populated and could be natural to reduce breedable pairs. but they are technically a third SEX because they have both organs.

originally posted by: 8fl0z
So tired of this argument...

If you have male sex organs, you are a male.

If you have female sex organs you are a female.

It's really that simple. I don't promote mental illnesses.

And if you have both your awesome. ANd GENDER is mental. SEX is psysical.

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: Darth_Prime

No, Gender is not Binary, the West are the ones who created a two Gender Binary systemcreated a two Gender Binary system

Really ? I thought evolution did that .Just damn . You have destroyed all my scientific knowledge with one small post..

Question then. If evolution is perfect what about the intersexed hermaphorites? Woudnt if it was a Evolutionary imperative there would not be any of those?

You , yourself know the answer to that...(if you know anything about genetics) and you misspelled that horribly.

Well if everyone was able to be a breeding pair the world would be over populated and could be natural to reduce breedable pairs. but they are technically a third gender because they have both organs.

Don't we all technically have both organs?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Gothmog

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: Darth_Prime

No, Gender is not Binary, the West are the ones who created a two Gender Binary systemcreated a two Gender Binary system

Really ? I thought evolution did that .Just damn . You have destroyed all my scientific knowledge with one small post..

Question then. If evolution is perfect what about the intersexed hermaphorites? Woudnt if it was a Evolutionary imperative there would not be any of those?

You , yourself know the answer to that...(if you know anything about genetics) and you misspelled that horribly.

Well if everyone was able to be a breeding pair the world would be over populated and could be natural to reduce breedable pairs. but they are technically a third gender because they have both organs.

Don't we all technically have both organs?

WEll to a point but a hermaprodite normally has both is what im getting at.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: wasaka

Can you post the source please?.

www.newscientist.com...

Sorry, thought I placed that link in the OP.