I want to get perspective on transgender people

a reply to: Darth_Prime

No one is bashing. You are just back peddling now because you were caught using false information to try to prove your point. No one is preventing you from answering questions. People just insist you use factual unbiased information when you do if you don't want people to criticize you.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Abysha

They represent an industry that makes money off of transgender people. They can issue guidelines for care all they want it doesn't make it factual. Do you not see the conflict of interest here? Of course they encourage these practices the people they represent know which side their bread is buttered on.

So... it is absolutely impossible for you to believe in anything at all about any subject?

It HAS to be a study going against the consensus for you to believe it? How do you navigate through life with a belief structure like that?

a reply to: Abysha

By comparing and analyzing information that represents both sides of an issue. Finding out the sources of said information and then determining if the information is biased or if there is a conflict of interest. Do you just agree with everything you read or just that which already conforms with your preconceived opinion?

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Abysha

By comparing and analyzing information that represents both sides of an issue. Finding out the sources of said information and then determining if the information is biased or if there is a conflict of interest. Do you just agree with everything you read or just that which already conforms with your preconceived opinion?

No, my knowledge on the matter is informed by the latest studies and evidence, by scientists and researchers unaffiliated with surgeons. WPATH is an organization that uses that SAME research and creates ethical guidelines for the medical community.

Why is it so hard for you to concede to the fact that an official research group on a subject represents the latest and most accurate information there is on the subject?

a reply to: Abysha

You still fail to see the conflict of interest? I am sure there were Nazi scientist that issued guidelines on the ethical handling of undesirables but that doesn't make it something that is true. I wont belabor the point as I am not trying to convince you. Others will see it for what it is.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Abysha

By comparing and analyzing information that represents both sides of an issue.

Both sides of what issue? Trans people exist. There's no arguing that fact. You have every right to be "against" trans people and not support their needs and rights, but that all comes from your own opinions.

There aren't "both sides of an issue" with transgender people any more than there are "both sides of an issue" with apples.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Abysha

You still fail to see the conflict of interest? I am sure there were Nazi scientist that issued guidelines on the ethical handling of undesirables but that doesn't make it something that is true. I wont belabor the point as I am not trying to convince you. Others will see it for what it is.

Prove there is some sort of conflict. Show me how they are getting bribes from surgeons.

Ask yourself this:
- If a research group decided to direct all of their answers towards profitable outcomes, why pick the one with the least return on investment? Why not lie and say that a special kind of therapy can do it? That would be far more profitable. Why would that make sense to you?

And the proof is in the results. Transpeople who do not take steps to transition suffer their entire lives (which is usually cut short to suicide). Transpeople who do take steps to transition are the ones who almost always get better.

Unless you are willing to set aside your paranoid conspiracy logic for a bit to actually learn something on the subject, none of that will make sense to you. It will always baffle you. And you will never be able to contribute constructively on the subject.

Why is there any point in talking to you about it?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I didnt say anything about this particular issue in that statement. It was in general terms . Perhaps reread the question addressed to me? There are however "sides" on the transgender issue. Those sides tend to be divided around what accommodations if any society has to make for this segment of the population. Despite what you say transgender people do fall on one or the other "side" on that issue.

Trans people are free to indulge all they want they just do not have the moral authority to dictate how others perceive them. Which is why they are attempting to use dishonest tallying and muddying of the waters to try to make a case through the media to get government on their side in enforcing acceptance for their behavior.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
Do you just agree with everything you read or just that which already conforms with your preconceived opinion?

By the same token, do you believe ANY thing you read?

Come on, folks. Our jolly friend in the red hat is just an antagonist, enjoys being contrary and exhibits behavior bordering on trollish. We feed him with every response regardless of any evidence or experience and his primary goal here seems to just stir things up and be an obstructionist for those that wish to ask and those that wish to answer questions.

Should anyone dare speak of their personal lives or experience in these matters, there's no doubt that would be attacked as well because anyone that is trans* is only misguided or mistaken because trans people aren't real or not in touch with reality or some other invalidating thing. The pattern is perfectly obvious.

The OP asks to gain perspective on transgender people but the big thing that has been made perfectly clear so far is that our North Pole friend has a bee in his bonnet and that anything trans people or their allies do or say or whatever evidence is produced is somehow discounted because he thinks so or that it is some part of a political agenda.

How about you give us a break here, Santa, and let the OP ask his questions?

originally posted by: Freija
STOP! EVERYBODY JUST STOP!!!

Coffee hasn't kicked in yet but I just caught up with this thread and already I see it has devolved into nearly the same circle jerk they all do.

Bathrooms? Why does it always come down to bathrooms. Get your minds out of the toilet. Potty talk does nothing but stir emotion, polarize people and politicize the entire issue.

Gender Dysphoria. Gender Identity Disorder. This is all semantics and distraction. It does not matter what it is called and the distinction between a disorder and a condition or whether it is a mental illness or not DOES NOT MATTER.

As expected, I also see the warm and fuzzy comments from those that simply have a hard on for transgender people, think all research is bunk and simply won't budge from their pulpit of spreading their dissenting opinion. Father Christmas, please stay away from my house, you're not welcome in my chimney.

Misinformation spread as opinion - do not blame environmental pollutants such as feminizing estrogens in the water. Transgender people have existed throughout the entirety of history and continue to appear in places where no such contamination exists. Low testosterone does not cause transgender people nor do high estrogen levels. Can these factors cause problems? Undoubtedly but being trans isn't one of them.

Language matters. Transgender is not a noun, it is an adjective. Transgendered and transgenderism are not proper words or things. Say transgender people, transgender women, men, etc.

The umbrella word "transgender" itself is so broad and so vague as to have no real value and is used to mean so many different things to different people it becomes basically worthless, confuses the issue and muddies the waters of discussion.

I'll get off my soapbox for now as to not write another wall of text. I would like to bring some genuine information to the table and respond to the OP but before I do, tell me Antipathy17, how old are you and what country are you in?

... I don't know why it matters but honestly, me not knowing doesn't matter.I am 27 born in Philadelphia PA, USA. I reside I Montgomery county PA atm

originally posted by: Darth_Prime

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: Antipathy17

Any transperson willing to honestly address your questions will be wasting their breath and throwing pearls before swine.

People here do not want to learn, understand, nor accept the scientific/medical consensus of the issue nor concede to the probability they are basing their entire opinion of transpeople on outdated cliche representations.

You want answers from people you call disgusting? Good luck.

This needs to be stated again,

I and many people here are openly willing to Discuss and answer any questions about Gender-Identity, but using Slurs and misusing pronouns is not "Asking Questions" it's just using this as another opportunity to bash Trans people

nope, I might be wrong.g o the terminology but I have NO ILL WILL for trans people, just trying to learn. I've been beaten and built back up in the replies prior, which invalidate your point. Read the whole thread and you will see people who have accused me of such stopped and start discussing.

originally posted by: Antipathy17
... I don't know why it matters but honestly, me not knowing doesn't matter.I am 27 born in Philadelphia PA, USA. I reside I Montgomery county PA atm

I was just curious because of some of your language and terminology. Knowing that you're not 14, I'm probably a little more inclined to get on you a bit for the way you say things but I will try to be polite and helpful to talk about all this stuff. If it is all unfamiliar, mistakes or comments that are inadvertently offensive are forgiven and that is common so don't be afraid to inquire about things you would like to know.

You seem open to information and genuinely curious? What type of perspective were you trying to gain about transgender people? What they think or how they feel? If they prefer Coke or Pepsi? Give it a go and see what you get.

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: Antipathy17
... I don't know why it matters but honestly, me not knowing doesn't matter.I am 27 born in Philadelphia PA, USA. I reside I Montgomery county PA atm

I was just curious because of some of your language and terminology. Knowing that you're not 14, I'm probably a little more inclined to get on you a bit for the way you say things but I will try to be polite and helpful to talk about all this stuff. If it is all unfamiliar, mistakes or comments that are inadvertently offensive are forgiven and that is common so don't be afraid to inquire about things you would like to know.

You seem open to information and genuinely curious? What type of perspective were you trying to gain about transgender people? What they think or how they feel? If they prefer Coke or Pepsi? Give it a go and see what you get.

Thanks. I'm going to be honest as I have been this whole thread, its going to take me a little to type but I GREATLY appreciate your understanding. in just trying to learn.

originally posted by: Antipathy17

originally posted by: Darth_Prime

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: Antipathy17

Any transperson willing to honestly address your questions will be wasting their breath and throwing pearls before swine.

People here do not want to learn, understand, nor accept the scientific/medical consensus of the issue nor concede to the probability they are basing their entire opinion of transpeople on outdated cliche representations.

You want answers from people you call disgusting? Good luck.

This needs to be stated again,

I and many people here are openly willing to Discuss and answer any questions about Gender-Identity, but using Slurs and misusing pronouns is not "Asking Questions" it's just using this as another opportunity to bash Trans people

nope, I might be wrong.g o the terminology but I have NO ILL WILL for trans people, just trying to learn. I've been beaten and built back up in the replies prior, which invalidate your point. Read the whole thread and you will see people who have accused me of such stopped and start discussing.

I am finally convinced I have misinterpreted your intentions. I am sorry.

If you read around on ATS and even in this thread, you will see plenty of examples and reasons why a transperson (or anybody informed on the subject) may be hesitant to engage in discussions here.

But Freija has the patience of a goddess and I am glad she gave you the benefit of the doubt and opened a dialog.

Here's to a constructive conversation and may the trolls and comedians be ignored!

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: Antipathy17
... I don't know why it matters but honestly, me not knowing doesn't matter.I am 27 born in Philadelphia PA, USA. I reside I Montgomery county PA atm

I was just curious because of some of your language and terminology. Knowing that you're not 14, I'm probably a little more inclined to get on you a bit for the way you say things but I will try to be polite and helpful to talk about all this stuff. If it is all unfamiliar, mistakes or comments that are inadvertently offensive are forgiven and that is common so don't be afraid to inquire about things you would like to know.

You seem open to information and genuinely curious? What type of perspective were you trying to gain about transgender people? What they think or how they feel? If they prefer Coke or Pepsi? Give it a go and see what you get.

I just want to get a feel on how we should go about accepting them or helping them. This isn't something easy. We've all been told one way is right, even if it wasn't obvious. Everything in our lives is an influence and we've all been influenced to think men are men and women are women. I just want to know if this is normal or a medical issue being abused for an agenda. As I will continue to say, I make no claims. Its just a topic that I feel is in infancy of research. When major topics like this come up for discussion there is a pattern. A pattern of information believed to be true being greatly adjusted because the prior information was aquired by studies done in bias. Cannabis is a prime example, suffocate a bunch of monkeys and bam decades of "cannabis smoking causes brain damage".


I'm confused and I just want to make sure trans.people are either accepted or helped. I spoke about my disgust in the OP, I don't want to offend trans people. Truly I respect them, I just want to know and help other know how to go about this situation. Every reply I make I run the chance of saying something I mean and being entirely wrong or worse a bigot. I am here trying to learn is all. I love people. I am a recovering abuser of people and while there are mostly good years, I can have a bad day like the rest. I'm a human looking to improve and my goal is to be a "great" person. One day.

Hope that explains a bit

a reply to: Antipathy17

Man, I have a lot of reading and replying to catch up on.

I'm glad this thread has gone the way it has. There have been attacks in this thread but looks what's coming out of it. Many side have spoken and while I haven't come to my own conclusion; I can see the walls on how to discuss this being gently broken away. These discussions need to be had. Even if every reply wasn't paying the OP to its goal, we've learned better how to discuss the issue. It's seems too simple to say, I like this.

originally posted by: Freija
STOP! EVERYBODY JUST STOP!!!

Coffee hasn't kicked in yet but I just caught up with this thread and already I see it has devolved into nearly the same circle jerk they all do.

Bathrooms? Why does it always come down to bathrooms. Get your minds out of the toilet. Potty talk does nothing but stir emotion, polarize people and politicize the entire issue.

Gender Dysphoria. Gender Identity Disorder. This is all semantics and distraction. It does not matter what it is called and the distinction between a disorder and a condition or whether it is a mental illness or not DOES NOT MATTER.

As expected, I also see the warm and fuzzy comments from those that simply have a hard on for transgender people, think all research is bunk and simply won't budge from their pulpit of spreading their dissenting opinion. Father Christmas, please stay away from my house, you're not welcome in my chimney.

Misinformation spread as opinion - do not blame environmental pollutants such as feminizing estrogens in the water. Transgender people have existed throughout the entirety of history and continue to appear in places where no such contamination exists. Low testosterone does not cause transgender people nor do high estrogen levels. Can these factors cause problems? Undoubtedly but being trans isn't one of them.

Language matters. Transgender is not a noun, it is an adjective. Transgendered and transgenderism are not proper words or things. Say transgender people, transgender women, men, etc.

The umbrella word "transgender" itself is so broad and so vague as to have no real value and is used to mean so many different things to different people it becomes basically worthless, confuses the issue and muddies the waters of discussion.

I'll get off my soapbox for now as to not write another wall of text. I would like to bring some genuine information to the table and respond to the OP but before I do, tell me Antipathy17, how old are you and what country are you in?

wrong post reply....sorry

a reply to: Antipathy17
A lot of your questions I'm not sure how to answer and many of them concern matters of political correctness and manners of social grace so my responses may be called out as being subjective or part of some progressive agenda to undermine morals and traditional family values. All people have different ideas on things and maybe I'm being proactively defensive but it is often hard to speak here without being called out for something. I am not the ultimate authority in these matters and can't even offer a firsthand perspective on most but I'll try to give some of your questions a shot and hope that others here will help fill things in or correct me should I misspeak.

I just want to get a feel on how we should go about accepting them or helping them. This isn't something easy. We've all been told one way is right, even if it wasn't obvious. Everything in our lives is an influence and we've all been influenced to think men are men and women are women.

At best, you can accept "them" for however they are presenting themselves as you would anyone - with respect and courtesy even if inside, you feel a sense of repulsion or the desire to flee. (I've heard that happens?) This of course assumes the trans people you may encounter all fit the "men in a dress" trope, are absolutely identifiable as trans or gender non-conforming that cause people and small animals to faint or scurry at the sight of. If a person's gender is indistinguishable by attire or affect, if in a situation it matters, asking their name can sometimes give you a clue but one thing to consider is that not all necessarily fit the male/female binary paradigm and may be in the middle or at both ends of the spectrum simultaneously. When really uncertain, it's not out of line to inquire discretely if a person prefers male or female pronouns or even neutral ones which are kind of hard for English speaking people, myself included.

This isn't something easy for most people. That's somewhat understandable when facing new or uncomfortable things that challenge existing beliefs or things we were taught growing up.

On the other hand you may (and may have) met trans people without even knowing or you may meet people you suspect might be trans but aren't sure. Don't worry about it, just treat them like you would anyone. Don't pry. Don't be a jerk. Don't be scared either, some trans people are really fun and interesting and are generally harmless. Strike up a conversation. Heck, you could even meet someone trans you find attractive? This doesn't make you gay.

I just want to know if this is normal or a medical issue being abused for an agenda. As I will continue to say, I make no claims. Its just a topic that I feel is in infancy of research. When major topics like this come up for discussion there is a pattern. A pattern of information believed to be true being greatly adjusted because the prior information was aquired by studies done in bias.

Trans or gender non-conforming people have existed since forever. Cultures and societies may have their own ideas about things but it is "normal" as far as happening goes. Always has and is nothing new. Being transgender per se isn't a medical issue. Even those that do experience gender dysphoria and the desire to transition into the opposite gender role or pursue hormones or surgery are all so different and individual, it is hard to state absolutes. As far as the infancy of research, it has been going on at least 50 years or longer in this country alone. Investigative techniques and technologies have and will continue to add to the depth of this knowledge but it is absolutely not a new phenomenon. What is new is the awareness and media attention of the whole thing and transgender people gaining some initial levels of acknowledgement or acceptance and being more willing to speak out. It is not quite the shameful thing it once was but as you can see by reading some of the comments here, it still makes people's heads explode and tempers rise. Societies attitudes grow and change over time. We'd all be stuck in the Victorian era or worse if they didn't.

I'm confused and I just want to make sure trans.people are either accepted or helped. I spoke about my disgust in the OP, I don't want to offend trans people. Truly I respect them, I just want to know and help other know how to go about this situation. Every reply I make I run the chance of saying something I mean and being entirely wrong or worse a bigot. I am here trying to learn is all. I love people. I am a recovering abuser of people and while there are mostly good years, I can have a bad day like the rest. I'm a human looking to improve and my goal is to be a "great" person. One day.

As I said making mistakes or saying the wrong thing happens. People understand that and know these are confusing, different and difficult things for people to take in. Don't worry so much. You've shown an attitude of willingness to learn and be that better person. That's cool and will take you far in learning about transgender issues. Thanks for trying and for setting the tone. Please (you or anyone) continue as will I.

Sometimes I say stay stupid stuff or it doesn't always come out or as intended. I did have an additional thought that will probably be more of the same but figured I'd add it anyway for additional consideration. I hope I get this all right and sorry for the wall of text. I know, I know tl;dr.
__________

The idea of "accepting" trans people isn't so much about how to act or behave around someone trans but more about understanding what their lives may be about and the kind of things or difficulties they may have had to face in coming to terms with their gender and their expression of it. From the perspective of someone cisgender, which just means someone not transgender, grasping the whole concept of how someone physically one sex can feel themselves to be or desire to express themselves as the opposite gender is hard to understand and difficult to relate to as most people never experience any disconnect between their sex and their gender.

The situation for transgender children and adolescents is somewhat different than in adults but basically the same or similar thing. If we look at the transgender adult that does feel this disconnect or incongruence, they've likely felt and repressed it for a very long time and often struggled with depression, insecurity, suicide ideation or attempt, social problems, trouble holding a job, substance abuse, alcoholism, trouble with the law - you name it. Who wouldn't be a little messed up coming to terms and understanding their own feelings which make absolutely no sense and seem to go against logic and convention. If it is difficult to understand from the outside it is usually much more difficult to grasp and face from the inside. This is a hard confusing place to be.

I'll reduce this to some over simplistic terms and concepts to make it easier to discuss and be more brief (which is a problem for me but this whole thing is complicated). For the sake of conversation, I'll refer to male to female (MtF) transgender people but there are FtM trans people as well.

Sometimes these cross gender feelings a person may have can be eased for a guy by just doing more traditional feminine things or less masculine things or by being more gender neutral or flexible. Sometimes dressing in women's clothing or playing with make-up brings a sense of relief or comfort and allows them to express their "feminine side".

Some may experience a much greater sense of discord between their inner self and their own feelings about being a man or a woman (their gender identity) and how others see them and how they present themselves to the world (their gender role or expression). These feelings may grow over time and their Gender Dysphoria becomes too much to ignore. "Dysphoria" by definition, is a sense of unease or discomfort which can fall about a million miles short of describing the sense of torment or anguish a person may feel. Being "a man" can feel more like being an actor in a play rather than reality and some may be driven so strongly to actually transition to live their life as the authentic person they know themselves to be in mind and in their heart. Many of these people seek to feminize their physical selves as well with hormones and perhaps cosmetic surgery to make everything match better and improve self image and public acceptance.

So, in learning to understand transgender people and those that have transitioned, one should consider the upheaval they have probably gone through in their lives to get where they are. Social connections, family relationships, jobs, friends and everything change and are often broken or discarded in the process. There is no such thing as being in the closet, that's what transitioning is and it can be, as one would imagine, emotionally tumultuous and difficult to an extraordinary degree.

In spite of the hardships and problems, once a person's sense of gender and how it is expressed and perceived by others has been better aligned by transitioning, for most this comes with a great sense of relief and improvements in their lives but can also come with its own set of new set of negatives and problems. Social acceptance, employment or housing issues, hostile attitudes, violence and the whole cycle of depression etc. or survival sex work. Their life may be better in ways but in others, still a living hell.

Some/many are also exceedingly well adapted and successful in their new role and settle in to experience a sense of normalcy, happiness and emotional well-being surpassing that of their previous life.

A portion of this group will also go on to complete their physical transformation and undergo sex reassignment surgery (SRS) but not all do. Medical literature and research refers to these people as transsexual although popular culture still lumps them under the transgender umbrella.

I posted earlier or in another thread statistics gathered from 2010 census data, Social Security records and other sources that put the estimated number of transgender or gender non-conforming people somewhere around 700,000 to maybe a million people in this country. Solid documented numbers find about 90,000 have legally transitioned socially and from this group around 30,000 have been identified as having completed SRS since 1980.

So, when you think about trans people and how they might make you feel, stop to think about their feelings and the kind of things they've had to deal with in their lives just to be themselves. The last thing they need is to be treated with disrespect, mis-gendered or called the wrong pronoun.

a reply to: Bennyzilla

GID (aka Gender Identity disorder) is only diagnosed to people during transitioning periods if the conflicts of gender cause distress and inability to function. Transgenderism is not a mental disorder.