I want to get perspective on transgender people

originally posted by: Pinke
Wanna guess how many people have said yes? It starts with a Z.

Exactly. And when you leave a link, as I did above, how much time was taken to read the information before responding? Again, it starts with a Z.

originally posted by: Antipathy17
also, its considered GID as you stated.

I won't bother leaving a link, but the condition has been renamed by the medical association as Gender Dysphoria. MANY things used to be called "disorders" before we knew more about it.

I have no idea what you mean by "indulge"...

originally posted by: Antipathy17
I never said anything about people being afraid OR attacked.

I know, but you said people are uncomfortable. Why are they uncomfortable? What do they think is going to happen? What are they "afraid" of? That's why I used that word.

don't get all negative and reply to me out of context as if I was on the attack.

I wasn't. I think you misunderstood my post.

originally posted by: Pinke
a reply to: Antipathy17

Like I say, references available on request.

There are a few people who read constantly about this subject on this board; often keeping up to date with science journals etc ... Interesting factoid for you ... I've offered references and books countless times on this board, even offering to dig up the material personally.

Wanna guess how many people have said yes? It starts with a Z.

Would you mind reading my post on page one and directing me to some material?

As I posted, neither of them really ever felt comfortable answering any questions or, talking about it at all really.

This was in the early to mid 90's so, that might have something to do with it. Different times and all.

Thanks in advance and thanks for helping those of us that actually want to try and understand it better.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Pinke
Wanna guess how many people have said yes? It starts with a Z.

Exactly. And when you leave a link, as I did above, how much time was taken to read the information before responding? Again, it starts with a Z.

originally posted by: Antipathy17
also, its considered GID as you stated.

I won't bother leaving a link, but the condition has been renamed by the medical association as Gender Dysphoria. MANY things used to be called "disorders" before we knew more about it.

I have no idea what you mean by "indulge"...

Things are always being classified and reclassified in the medical field, we adjust and accept. This is still being classified as a disorder of sorts which needs to be discussed. If we do still claim it to be a disorder though (now and in the future) isn't allowing them to choose bathrooms and lockereooms and dress/change body parts the same as letting an alcoholic drink in public? Again not saying this is truly a disorder but the discussion being had seems to be inconclusive if we are still claiming its a disorder but telling people its not something we can medicate or "fix".

a reply to: Antipathy17

I stumbled upon all of this by accident, while researching other hormone-related health issues for my daughter. It was quite an eye-opener, allowing me to consider the issue from an entirely new perspective. I hope it helps you understand it all a little bit better, and maybe others as well. But it's just a beginning. As you said, much more research is needed... and first we need to get corporate/political interests out of the way.

originally posted by: Antipathy17
This is still being classified as a disorder of sorts which needs to be discussed.

I don't feel a need to focus on the term, because I know a lot more about the condition. The classification changed in the most recent APA manual. It's now classified simply as Gender Dysphoria. So you're just using the old term.

APA Replaces "Gender Identity Disroder" with "Gender Dysphoria"

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Antipathy17
This is still being classified as a disorder of sorts which needs to be discussed.

I don't feel a need to focus on the term, because I know a lot more about the condition. The classification changed in the most recent APA manual. It's now classified simply as Gender Dysphoria. So you're just using the old term.

APA Replaces "Gender Identity Disroder" with "Gender Dysphoria"

Thanks for the link, I'm going to verify. I just want to point out that like myself many people don't know the new terminology and some don't want to. This thread has helped me a lot and I hope it helps others or others find more clarity on the subject.

We have a transgendered person at work. Knew her when she was a him, and now she's a she. Not much has changed other than that. It's been a few years now, and she's just her now. No biggie. Still an outstanding, very intelligent employee who does great work.

I've never noticed what restroom she uses. It's a big building.

STOP! EVERYBODY JUST STOP!!!

Coffee hasn't kicked in yet but I just caught up with this thread and already I see it has devolved into nearly the same circle jerk they all do.

Bathrooms? Why does it always come down to bathrooms. Get your minds out of the toilet. Potty talk does nothing but stir emotion, polarize people and politicize the entire issue.

Gender Dysphoria. Gender Identity Disorder. This is all semantics and distraction. It does not matter what it is called and the distinction between a disorder and a condition or whether it is a mental illness or not DOES NOT MATTER.

As expected, I also see the warm and fuzzy comments from those that simply have a hard on for transgender people, think all research is bunk and simply won't budge from their pulpit of spreading their dissenting opinion. Father Christmas, please stay away from my house, you're not welcome in my chimney.

Misinformation spread as opinion - do not blame environmental pollutants such as feminizing estrogens in the water. Transgender people have existed throughout the entirety of history and continue to appear in places where no such contamination exists. Low testosterone does not cause transgender people nor do high estrogen levels. Can these factors cause problems? Undoubtedly but being trans isn't one of them.

Language matters. Transgender is not a noun, it is an adjective. Transgendered and transgenderism are not proper words or things. Say transgender people, transgender women, men, etc.

The umbrella word "transgender" itself is so broad and so vague as to have no real value and is used to mean so many different things to different people it becomes basically worthless, confuses the issue and muddies the waters of discussion.

I'll get off my soapbox for now as to not write another wall of text. I would like to bring some genuine information to the table and respond to the OP but before I do, tell me Antipathy17, how old are you and what country are you in?

I agree.
If someone is physically and wholly a male, with complete male parts and no female parts, they're a male. If someone is physically and wholly a female, with complete female parts and no male parts, they're a female. If a person is one gender but believes they are or should be the other gender, it's a mental illness and not some physical problem that needs to be fixed. When a transgender person has a perfectly normal body but feels like it needs to be altered or changed due to some kind of discomfort with being in their own skin, they're simply not mentally healthy.
It seems almost primitive to me in a way, despite our technology, that we are treating transgender people as people with physical problems rather than mental problems. It reminds of me using lobotomies or electroshock instead of dealing with the actual issue... Kindof like the doctors are saying "Eh, screw it, we're getting paid".

It's come to almost a biblical scale where we are completely modifying lifeforms, whether through genetic modification, sexual modification, gender reassignment, etc etc. I mean according to the bible, that was one of the reasons God decided to wipe out all life, because of the way humans were completely twisting creation. Gender reassignments are a perversion of nature, and it disgusts me too.

a reply to: trollz
Clearly, your comments stem from opinion and feelings without having any real knowledge or facts in these matter. That's okay, most people truly don't or don't care to and the information they do have comes from sensationalized media or biased web sources and things they've heard. That's understandable, it makes most people uncomfortable.

Transgender and transsexual people exist. They always have and are human beings like everyone else and some feel more like mistakes of nature rather than perversion of it. For those that do seek or require medical intervention, decades of research and science have the levels and standards of care thoroughly defined and clearly laid out. Treatment for those that wish to "change their sex" is not mysticism nor experimental.

Since your signature has a number and invitation for challenge, digest all of the information in these hundred or so peer reviewed research papers then get back to me on this.

Transsexual and intersex gender identity

What causes transsexualism - Hormone studies

What causes transsexualism - Genetic studies

WPATH's Standards of Care Note: there's a link at the bottom of the page to download the 112 page PDF. It says "buy" but is free.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

So you prefer biased information?

No. I didn't say that. I prefer facts over opinion.

That is how your post comes across. It sounds like you advise the OP against discussion of the topic here because some people will have dissenting opinions or facts to present.

This is how you have interpreted my post. I am pretty careful to say just what I mean, so no interpretation is necessary. If I wanted to advise the OP of something, I would SAY, "I'd advise you ..." Reading into my posts will just cause confusion. And there's enough of that going around.

You are saying that you cant get the truth unless you get information from advocacy groups?

No, I did not say that at all. And the American Psychological Association is not what I'd call an advocacy group.

Because I am personally tired of so much confusion and frustrated by the general lack of information and because I know 99% of people aren't going to review offsite resources, for expediency and to make things simple, under fair use, let me save you some trouble and quote from the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH's) prefacing statements from their published Standards of Care (SoC) as linked in the previous post.

Being Transsexual, Transgender, or Gender Nonconforming Is a Matter of Diversity, Not Pathology

WPATH released a statement in May 2010 urging the de-psychopathologization of gender nonconformity worldwide (WPATH Board of Directors, 2010). This statement noted that “the expression of gender characteristics, including identities, that are not stereotypically associated with one’s assigned sex at birth is a common and culturally-diverse human phenomenon [that] should not be judged as inherently pathological or negative.”

Unfortunately, there is stigma attached to gender nonconformity in many societies around the world. Such stigma can lead to prejudice and discrimination, resulting in “minority stress” (I. H. Meyer, 2003). Minority stress is unique (additive to general stressors experienced by all people), socially based, and chronic, and may make transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming individuals more vulnerable to developing mental health concerns such as anxiety and depression (Institute of Medicine, 2011). In addition to prejudice and discrimination in society at large, stigma can contribute to abuse and neglect in one’s relationships with peers and family members, which in turn can lead to psychological distress. However, these symptoms are socially induced and are not inherent to being transsexual, transgender, or gender nonconforming.

Gender Nonconformity Is Not the Same as Gender Dysphoria

Gender nonconformity refers to the extent to which a person’s gender identity, role, or expression differs from the cultural norms prescribed for people of a particular sex (Institute of Medicine, 2011). Gender dysphoria refers to discomfort or distress that is caused by a discrepancy between a person’s gender identity and that person’s sex assigned at birth (and the associated gender role and/or primary and secondary sex characteristics) (Fisk, 1974; Knudson, De Cuypere, & Bockting, 2010b). Only some gender nonconforming people experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives.

Treatment is available to assist people with such distress to explore their gender identity and find a gender role that is comfortable for them (Bockting & Goldberg, 2006). Treatment is individualized: What helps one person alleviate gender dysphoria might be very different from what helps another person. This process may or may not involve a change in gender expression or body modifications. Medical treatment options include, for example, feminization or masculinization of the body through hormone therapy and/or surgery, which are effective in alleviating gender dysphoria and are medically necessary for many people. Gender identities and expressions are diverse, and hormones and surgery are just two of many options available to assist people with achieving comfort with self and identity.

Gender dysphoria can in large part be alleviated through treatment (Murad et al., 2010). Hence, while transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming people may experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives, many individuals who receive treatment will find a gender role and expression that is comfortable for them, even if these differ from those associated with their sex assigned at birth, or from prevailing gender norms and expectations.

Diagnoses Related to Gender Dysphoria
Some people experience gender dysphoria at such a level that the distress meets criteria for a formal diagnosis that might be classified as a mental disorder. Such a diagnosis is not a license for stigmatization or for the deprivation of civil and human rights. Existing classification systems such as the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) (American Psychiatric Association, 2000) and the International Classification of Diseases (ICD) (World Health Organization, 2007) define hundreds of mental disorders that vary in onset, duration, pathogenesis, functional disability, and treatability. All of these systems attempt to classify clusters of symptoms and conditions, not the individuals themselves. A disorder is a description of something with which a person might struggle, not a description of the person or the person’s identity.

Thus, transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming individuals are not inherently disordered. Rather, the distress of gender dysphoria, when present, is the concern that might be diagnosable and for which various treatment options are available. The existence of a diagnosis for such dysphoria often facilitates access to health care and can guide further research into effective treatments

a reply to: Freija

WPATH. Totally non biased source....Have you actually looked into them? Seems to me they are in the business of sexual reassignment surgery or represent people who are.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Freija

WPATH. Totally non biased source....Have you actually looked into them?

Have you? This is not an advocacy group. It is the medical and scientific professional community.

My gawd, man. Is nothing good enough for you? Be careful driving that sleigh with your blinders on. Someone could get hurt. Why is it that this topic is so important to you that you feel it is necessary to be so disruptive for those that may actually want to improve their understanding of this. I've tried to be helpful and considerate, not resorted to name calling or been accusatory. All you've done is show negativity and spread your vile opinion. We get it.

a reply to: Freija

They represent people who make their money from doing these procedures. You are denying that?

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: Freija

They represent people who make their money from doing these procedures. You are denying that?

They are THE authority, the consensus, and research hub of this subject. Everything from WPATH is driven by actual evidence.

You are discounting it for one reason and one reason only: you do not like what the evidence says.

To say they are representing the surgeons is a pretty lazy dismissal. Let me guess, climate science is wrong too?

a reply to: Abysha

They represent an industry that makes money off of transgender people. They can issue guidelines for care all they want it doesn't make it factual. Do you not see the conflict of interest here? Of course they encourage these practices the people they represent know which side their bread is buttered on.

a reply to: Abysha

Let me guess, climate science is wrong too?

That isn't the topic at hand but I will indulge you a minute. Would you consider climate change information that came from Exxon?

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: Antipathy17

Any transperson willing to honestly address your questions will be wasting their breath and throwing pearls before swine.

People here do not want to learn, understand, nor accept the scientific/medical consensus of the issue nor concede to the probability they are basing their entire opinion of transpeople on outdated cliche representations.

You want answers from people you call disgusting? Good luck.

This needs to be stated again,

I and many people here are openly willing to Discuss and answer any questions about Gender-Identity, but using Slurs and misusing pronouns is not "Asking Questions" it's just using this as another opportunity to bash Trans people