Democratic Presidential Debate 11/14/2015

I think Bernie won. He seemed to be the most concerned, passionate, and the least full of BS. O'Malley did good for who he is and where he is in the polls.

Sanders seems like he's willing to work the hardest for the people.

Even though Sanders won't be able to accomplish anything due to the GOP in congress -- he'll rally the people and possibly put pressure on them.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: JacKatMtn

I think that qualifies as a crisis. Our Vet health care system is horrible and all Americans should be greatly ashamed of it.

Of course it should... it took some exposing news stories to get the current Pres to fire the head of the VA...

Cool.. so how is that response affected the veterans receiving less than the best treatment?

News gone silent? non issue now?

That was to quell the HEADLINES...

I cringe when ANY candidate uses VETERANS in an answer to a question... especially those who seek the highest office...

Don't fall for it... We Vets have been talked about often when the Oval Office is in play, but two weeks later... it's on to something else...

a reply to: JacKatMtn

I am not a fan of the premise that YOU MUST COMPLETE college to be worthy...

Absolutely not, not suggesting that whatsoever.

However, for those interested in furthering their education we as a super power should be able to provide that to our citizens.

a reply to: interupt42

No issue with that.... those seeking College level education should "go for it"...

seems more and more that you aren't sh*t if you don't have that cred...

maybe it's more a reflection on all of the blue collar job movement out of the country?

I don't know, but I know I don't appreciate the push that put's pressure on all the kids to go to UNI, or be a lesser person...

YMMV

Problem is that if you put all the kids through Uni, then that basic 4-year is meaningless because everyone has one. All it means is that we put off asking our kids to shoulder responsibility for four more years. The ones who will get the best jobs will be the ones who go to grad school and there will still be that separation.

The big difference is that it will take a college degree to say, "Do you want fries with that?"

And, of course, the kids who can't make the cut for college will be even further in the tank because they don't even have that 4-year degree on top of maybe not having their GED.

a reply to: ketsuko

Just because college could be paid for doesn't mean everyone is going to immediately rush forward and overcrowd our colleges. Other countries provide college education. Not everyone is capable of being dedicated and disciplined enough to complete college, and not everyone is interested or capable of going to college.

Your running to an absurd extreme saying all fast food workers will have to have college degrees. That is a logical falacy:

Appeal to Extremes

(also known as: reductio ad absurdum [misuse of], slippery slope fallacy [form of])
Description: Erroneously attempting to make a reasonable argument into an absurd one, by taking the argument to the extremes.

Logical Form: If X is true, then Y must also be true (where Y is the extreme of X)

Example #1: There is no way those Girl Scouts could have sold all those cases of cookies in one hour. If they did, they would have to make $500 in one hour, which, based on an 8 hour day is over a million dollars a year. That is more than most lawyers, doctors, and successful business people make!

Explanation: The Girl Scouts worked just for one hour -- not 40 per week for a year. Suggesting the extreme leads to an absurd conclusion; that Girl Scouts are among the highest paid people in the world. Not to mention, there is a whole troop of them doing the work, not just one girl.

Link

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Besides college, will Bernie be throwing in trade and technical schools too? I know I would because those that don't want to go to college and having another choice can only benefit society. A country full of educated and skilled people is a good thing.

Frankly, I find the idea that "universities will be free" about as realistic as rounding up the Mexican/Central American immigrants and sending them back.

When asked how it would be paid for, didn't he say something to the effect of "states are smart! they will think of a way".
Oh. Hearing that sort of took the wind out of my sails.

In other words, your state taxes would soar with no end. (Or in my state a six pack of beer would cost $87.00). Pick your poison.

The other two responses were much more realistic, such as they would like for them to be able to graduate without enormous debt.

I really think he shot himself in the foot with that one. People know it won't work.

a reply to: Swills

Hillary is actually the one who said she wants community colleges to be free, which is realistically much more doable than the huge universities. I don't think my state could meet the payroll or pay the power bills. Seriously. Our university is enormous. Many are.

a reply to: Swills

So perhaps, with all the worry over the middle class... considering that some on the left tonight equated that to minimum wage, the trade and technical schools should be gov't funded... not a 4 year UNI degree?

Wow... use the folks tax money to train folks to be able to produce goods, maintain goods, fix stuff etc etc.. in an 18 month curriculum rather than have the money go to 48 month schooling in who knows the outcome?

Sounds good to me, we just need our leaders to bring those jobs home... Made In America needs a comeback...

Those elected, should be focused on that, rather than the TPP....

a reply to: angeldoll

I would image all state schools would be free but private colleges will still be private schools, right?

What really needs to be addressed about higher learning is the racket it's become! Prices of the books alone are beyond ridiculous and that's all thanks to student loans brought to us by the gov't. That system is complete fail and needs to be addressed asap! Student debt is the second highest debt in the US and may be number one in our lifetime! Insane!

a reply to: JacKatMtn

Exactly. Everyone is different and chances are those that won't go to college will go to a trade or technical school. Some people rather work with their hands. And of course, their time in training is much shorter and hopefully their books don't cost hundreds of dollars! Cost effective and total benefit to society.

a reply to: Swills

So, we'll have a similar situation to what we have in lower school public schools - If you want to have a decent education, you more or less will still have to figure out how to pay for it like the children of the elites, and everyone else will have the crumbling, crappy public universities.

You're fooling yourself if you think making the universities public like the public schools will actually improve the quality of the educations provided.

It will turn out about as well as the public school system is turning out.

a reply to: ketsuko

Yeah because all those nations who have free education are crumbling, right?

The second big issue involving education are politicians who force schools to follow their mandates but have no degree or experience in the field of education. That is ruining our entire education system. It's sad the US is so low on the education scale when compared to the rest of the world.

Lower public schools? You mean schools in low income areas? That's a whole other issue but they are the minority. As bad as our public education is there are plenty of good public schools in America.

a reply to: JacKatMtn

Ah, "Made in America" ... it's getting harder and harder to find these days.

The thing is, due to inflation and stagnant wages, the middle class's buying power crap. In order for companies to keep selling us stuff, they have to offer it to us at cheaper prices. In order to do this they ship the manufacturing overseas -- and the cycle continues.

If more stuff was made here in America, it would cost more and people wouldn't buy it compared to the cheaper, made in China competitor's product.

Simply, Americans need to be paid more to afford products made in America, which would employ more Americans making more money, spending more money...ect ect...

a reply to: Swills

Oh yes it's absurd, all the costs.

The candidates tonight, though, again zeroed in on Pharmaceutical Corps and Insurance companies as the big bugaboos that need to be brought down to size. Apparently Canadians pay a fraction of what we pay for medications. I mean they all pretty much said we are being ripped off on a regular basis by those two entities.
(That was Hillary, btw, who brought up those issues in case you didn't see it).

a reply to: JacKatMtn

Community Colleges are more than 18 months, when I went the typical program took 72 semester credit hours which is 18 credit hours per semester for 4 semesters. Most people can't do that and actually learn, the sweet spot seems to be 12 credit hours per semester (note that most existing financial aid screws you if you go over 12) which is 6 semesters or 3 years.

Then you have the issue that Associates degrees are completely worthless in America. You're actually more likely to end up with a 50-70k wage holding just a HS diploma than holding an Associates.

a reply to: Aazadan

Interesting. I always think of Community Colleges as being 2-year (Associates Degree) deals.

Hmmm. Anyway, I'm all for 'trade school' - and in particular the idea that a kid in high school can say "this is what I'm interested in", and then they offer classes about that (shop, fashion, welding, automotive, chef) that the kids can attend instead of sitting in courses that don't interest them.

It's a win-win.

A kid who knows HOW TO LEARN can learn anything he or she wants to.
Having them start along that path earlier (like they do in Italy, according to the many interns that came through the place I worked) does wonders.

NOT ALL kids want to go to college. Not all of them want to finish high school. If the kid knows how to read, write, and do research, they can accomplish anything they want.

There's already free courses on the internet.

Anyway, though I watched the debate, I didn't see this thread - now that I have read through it and reviewed the debate, I wanted to post this thing I found this morning:

Guess Who Wins the Presidency According to School With 100% Prediction History

To clarify, this Western Illinois Univ mock election has been right 100% of the time for POTUS outcomes. But not always for VP.


also others: thebernreport.com...
firebrandleft.com...
and others. Do a search for more.

But here it is from the University's site itself:
Democratic Ticket Wins Mock Presidential Election; WIU Students Voted Sanders/O'Malley to Take Top Seats
Yeah, it's from a couple of weeks ago - but still very relevant today.
Like, TOday.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: JacKatMtn

Community Colleges are more than 18 months, when I went the typical program took 72 semester credit hours which is 18 credit hours per semester for 4 semesters. Most people can't do that and actually learn, the sweet spot seems to be 12 credit hours per semester (note that most existing financial aid screws you if you go over 12) which is 6 semesters or 3 years.

Then you have the issue that Associates degrees are completely worthless in America. You're actually more likely to end up with a 50-70k wage holding just a HS diploma than holding an Associates.

You misread his post. The 18 months applies to trade and technical schools. He clearly says college is 48 months.