Are the "Baby Boomers" at odds with social inclusion and equality hypocrites?

originally posted by: Baldryck
How about we all just accept that there is no more Hetero / Same sex marriage and just call it marriage and be happy.

Agreed!

This whole thing is really getting tiresome.

Reasoned debating is fun! (for some). If you're tired of it, avoid it. I think people still want to talk and debate about it.

Yesterday, I wrote what amounted to a short story and have had a difficult time deciding what to edit out and what to leave in. It is still overly wordy and rambling but JadeStar is interested in a bit of history which I'm retaining with a personal slant of my observations that may or may not have particular meaning to her. For other readers, this may simply illustrate some of the differences between then and now?

_____

I'm reading along and thinking "yeah, yeah, Jade, I can add some angle to this" but then I started to reply and realized that while I may fall into the demographic you are talking about, I share little of their starchy mindset so it is not simply a matter of age alone. I do, however, think I might have some insight and observations that can contribute to your post due to my particular experiences as I suspect you may have your own unique vantage point at my age?

For those reading that don't know, I too am a woman of transsexual history or as Jade says, "a girl born different", just a couple generations older. This probably has and forever will skew my perspective as that of one who has danced to the beat of their own drum, upset social norms and raised and continues to raise a bit of hell now and then and don't mind if kids are on my lawn so I don't quite fit the mold, but...

I too would be interested in the demographic of those that demonstrate inflexibility in dealing with the changes in society so prevalent here in these recent days with the SCOTUS decision, Jenner, LGBT, et al. I would bet most of them are Boomers as their thinking seems antiquated when faced with all this millennial madness from the new majority. If this is the case, I have several theories to throw out.

First, just some generalizations about generations and stuff. As people get older or settled in their ways, the status quo becomes what is easy and comfortable and no one wants their bubble to burst. This apathy is readily apparent evidenced in politics, activism, everywhere. Older folks may have peaked at their career with their kids raised and gone just hoping the economy doesn't collapse, the Russians don't invade and the queer don't take over their world and upset the sanctity and security of their little dome . I also think some of this group was raised by Ward and June Cleaver (you may have to look that up?) and faced little challenge or adversity earlier in life that has left them inflexible and inadaptable later in life to the changes happening around them? I also think they're probably boring and realize they've failed to seize every moment they could have?

Nobody likes things to change, me included, but I'll exclude myself from that group because a fair portion of my life has been lived on the edge, stepping over boundaries, taking risks and never too far from a crash at any given time. It keeps you sharp on your toes and not having the big white house and picket fence, throngs of family and social connections and basically living life without a safety net tends to keep the mind and the mindset stretchy. (Note: I do live in a nice house and it has a lawn)

In truth though, the "radical 60's generation", the hippies and flower children, summer of love and Woodstock people are probably five to ten years older than me so 65 to 70 now? I witnessed and remembered all that stuff, Viet Nam, the protests, hiding under desks in case the Ruskies dropped the big one, Kent State, JFK, Nixon, Johnson. the moon landing, The Beatles, civil rights, MLK, women's liberation and the sexual revolution but I was still too young to actually participate. Four dead in Ohio, the SDS, the Weather Underground and Stonewall happened when I was in high school. It was very exciting times with much upheaval and changing attitudes and values. None of the decades since have been as exciting or as engaging and it is hard to believe anyone around back then has problems keeping up with today unless the 70's burned them out?

I have clear memory of these things as I somehow felt outside of my life and that I was more of an observer. Sure, people had heard about Christine Jorgensen but nobody had ever heard about trans kids or what to do with them and my life was miserable and fake and everything about me was a lie. I left home at 18 immediately after high school and into the world of 1973. David Bowie/Ziggy Stardust and the androgynous thing were big and I moved in that direction, sans the glitter then on down the road.

The 70's had a lot going on too and things were moving fast and as I had morphed into the person I am now by mid decade, I emerged into a world of disco, partying, drugs, drinking and fun. Gay rights was making the news and the local lesbian community the closest thing I found to kinship. This was a tumultuous time for me and my life focused only around one do or die goal and my memories of outside events are bit more fuzzy as I had become less of an observer and more of a participant in my own life. It was like I had blinders on. Working crap office jobs but steadily moving up and finally completing the plan to "get fixed", Renee Richards burst onto the public scene shortly thereafter. While this being blast all over TV and the media was probably a whole lot bigger than Caitlyn Jenner, I think it (and Phil Donohue!) helped my mom understand a lot of things and gave me some hope that if my past did come out, the stigma of being transsexual might be lessened by at least people having heard of such a thing before or someone other than Christine Jorgensen at least. Nice to know even forty some years later though, it can still make people's heads explode.

I pulled a quote from Wikipedia by Sports Illustrated that called Richards an "extraordinary spectacle", and characterized reactions to her as "varying from astonishment to suspicion, sympathy, resentment, and more often than not, utter confusion". This was a big deal but the '60's radicals and all the uppity folks were well out of college and into their lives and at the time at least, some had not completely forgotten what it was like to be different or be called a freak and were more understanding although I think by the end of the decade, everyone was burned out on drugs, social turmoil and change and had begun building families and starting their own little bubbles to live in?

'80's. What did happen in the 80's? My life was so full and fast and crazy, I paid little attention to the outside world and kept it at arm's length for the most part. Halfway through I got married and somewhat more grounded and in the last part of the decade, I got my first computer which is an excellent place to stop and segue into my next part.

90's to Present - I entertained this concept in another thread recently but will reprise it here as it is germane to the discussion. What happened beginning in the 90's is information and genesis of the digital age. The observer part of me sees these times will be looked back on by future generations as next fundamental shift in society and the world, the same way we look back at the industrial revolution today. (I'm an ATS Time Traveler and I know this! Haha!)

Continued..

There has never been anything comparable in history. We're online, connected and communicating with all the world's knowledge at our disposal with a click or swipe. The evolution of society is indeed well underway - it's a snowball rolling down a hill getting bigger and faster that can't be stopped. I see either one of two things happening. A CME or mega EMP blasts us all back to the 1800's, society collapses, we turn to cannibalism and life ends like an episode of the Walking Dead.

Or two, the next stage for humanity is transhumanism. We're connected, jacked in and communicating real time without external devices or wires - part of the matrix. Before we go quite that far though, our current technology will do just fine and pave the way for our social networks to take over, rob us of our individuality and autonomy, short-circuit the ability of human beings to think for themselves and act on their own ideas and abilities all the while being monitored, recorded. denied due process after the notion of privacy has long been discarded as an antiquated idea. Society hurtles forward toward individual disempowerment at the hands of technology and political forces.

Sound somewhat familiar and maybe a little doomsdayish? The thoughts roughly parallel those from "Industrial Society and Its Future". published September 1995 by The New York Times and Washington Post to comply with Ted Kaczynski demands, and is otherwise known as the Unibomber Manifesto. Twenty years later, it doesn't sound all that crazy or implausible does it? Kind of sounds like something you might hear echoed over and over again on a conspiracy site too or the next new thing from Google or Facebook?

Doom, gloom and the potential darkside of technology aside, there are a more realistic and tangible negatives to our digital and technology filled lives though that I feel is going to spiral downward and bottom out before it gets better. And that is, the massive polarization of ideas and the platform for keyboard warriors to spread their voice. Left this, right that, my god is more righteous than yours and I'm right and you're wrong all fuelled by the manipulated media that fosters this polarization with hyperbole and spin. Take a look at any online blog or news source that allows comments and see for yourself the level of ignorance, hate, bigotry and vitriol. In the scope of LGBQ and transsexual and transgender acceptance and attitudes, it seems worse than it used to be but maybe before the Internet, blogs and online forums, there was no avenue for widespread distribution of these hateful ideas?

So, to address the OP's question, which I think she's hit right on the head, is yes, things are scary for people that don't grasp what is happening but I don't think it is necessarily always generation specific. There has never been more information available to the average Joe at any time in history. Gay kids and trans* kids are finding there are others out there like them. Communities are coming together at the speed of light and people are expanding their awareness in ways that have never before been possible and Fred and Ethyl only know what they hear on the news that isn't even news anymore.

In the dreadful thread "Children as young as 12 are receiving drugs to prepare them for sex change!" someone wanted to blame the water or other environmental factors and the progressive education system for the "alarming" phenomenal rise in trans kids and it's all hooey. If there is this alleged big rise, It is the rise of awareness and information, trans kids finding other trans kids or even finding out there is such a thing. In the dark ages, there was nothing.

Look at the beautiful and deadly smart young woman with an unlimited future ahead of her that the OP has had the opportunity to become. This is because she got the help and support she needed at the most opportune time. This isn't because of ignorance or lack of information, just the opposite is true. Speaking personally, if transsexual kids and ways to deal with them had even ever been a thing anybody had heard of in the 60's, maybe my miserable and disingenuous high school experience and absolute horror at what was happening to my body followed by basically living one step off the street figuring out what to do about it all could have been avoided and saved me a hella lot of pain. Just on this one single issue alone, I give the awareness and information available in this digital age a +1 and a pass over any downsides of our technology or wistful longing for the good old days gone by.

I do have to make a statement on one comment though.

originally posted by: JadeStarSo were it not for the rapid development of micro neurosurgery which took place throughout the late 1990s then parts of my body after gender reassignment surgery would not have any feeling or be functional at all.

Jade, I need to step in here and advise you differently on this. Other readers please excuse this momentary sidebar while I provide a brief history lesson to one of my own. In 1969, Dr. Stanley Biber was one of the first pioneering SRS surgeons in this country outside of some of the research projects going on at the time. Meltzer, Granato, Bowers and others initially trained in their techniques with Biber. I made my pilgrimage to Trinidad (CO) in 1977 and while the advancements of micro neurosurgery may have lessened the physical impact on the body of SRS and improved recovery times since then(?), my "older model" is fully sensitized, orgasmic and functional. As a married woman for 11 years (now divorced), I had no problems with marital relations with my husband nor with any other sexual liaisons.

So, wrapping up, some of us are dinosaurs in age but not necessarily in mind but the reverse is also true. One thing that is fairly certain is society and humanity will continue to progress while some cling to the past and fail to evolve.

◄eKay◄

a reply to: EKron

Wow - fantastic post! Just curious, are you a writer by trade? If not, you should be.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: EKron

Wow - fantastic post! Just curious, are you a writer by trade? If not, you should be.

Wait. You actually read all that?

Haha! I am not a writer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but thanks. I actually work in IT and information systems, the very thing I demonized but gave a pass to because it's better than living in the dark.

►eKay◄

a reply to: Baldryck

I just wanted to take an extra post here to thank you for that post. That is entirely how I feel about the whole situation. It's over, it's done with...move on already. There's too much happening in the world to dwell on things like this.

a reply to: EKron

I did indeed read it - and I'm going to read it again before I make specific comments. I just wanted to say what a great piece it was.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
It appears that those you and others accuse of some sort of 'age based phobias', or of being 'out of touch' etc is just having the ability to see beyond next week, unlike many teenagers that can't see past their next party.

With age comes wisdom and with that comes the ability to see the bigger picture and having the confidence to say if society looks messed up and heading towards oblivion.

Ok, so here's an honest question, when you were in your teens and twenties did people twice your age think society looked messed up and heading towards oblivion?

originally posted by: ketsuko
Or ... Is it that gay is the new "in" thing and fad and that is why so many people like identifying with it the same way everyone had to do that brand new thing in school? In my day, it was Garth Brooks and country pop music that was the fad. People all suddenly started wearing cowboy hats and boots and every boy in my high school wanted a pickup truck.

It makes people feel good to know they are part of the group. They feel included and like they're "one of the guys."

I do not even have words for this.....

seriously?

originally posted by: Sillyosaurus
a reply to: JadeStar

Not entirely.

There is some truth to it. But let me tell you I see the lgbt community range from 18 to 70 years of age.

*nods in agreement*

Yes I am in the south. And yes I live in Nola so my expiriance may be skewed but maybe not.

That's cool. I've been there to visit my grandparents who finally were able to move back after what happened with the hurricane.

Honestly avoid painting absolutes and you may be on to something.

Thanks. I of course didn't mean to paint with such absolutes and obviously any description of a generation in a generalization based on averaging.

It just seemed remarkable to me that quite a few people on ATS from the generation which initiated questioning authority and societal "norms", questioning traditions of oppression or traditions of disenfranchisement which championed greater inclusion in general would not recognize that what their generation started continues today in different form.

Just know it is unlikely the number of the lgbt community has grown so exponentially. So by that logic these older folks just wanted equality but couldn't get it in their youth.

Hmmm... ok but don't you think perhaps since there is less of a stigma than when someone who is now 70 was 20 that more people might feel comfortable speaking up and stuff?

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: JadeStar

The problem is that we're old and not very smart or worldly like the younger generations.

Now those kids are smart!

They are edgy, ironic and get things, like twerking and piercings.

Old people have never spent their lives living and working with a broad spectrum of individuals who may be LGBTQ-BLT.

But wasn't it less likely back in those days? Like I know for a -FACT- that LGBTIQGF people were certainly less visible and many felt they had to hide who they were or if they were out they lived in "gayborhoods" kinda separate from much of mainstream society right?

Old people have only ever hung out with like-minded individuals so we could agree with each other all the time.

I didn't say that. I know a lot of you had epic battles. Nixon vs Kennedy, The Beatles vs The Rolling Stones, Escalation vs Withdrawal in VIetnam, Punk vs Disco, English vs Metics, Jocks vs Nerds, Pro Life vs Pro Choice, Pepsi vs Coke, Clinton(s) vs Bush(es), Grunge vs Rave, etc....

We didn't have things like the internet growing up so we're pretty much complete idiots in the ways of the world because we could only rely on "books" (they're like e-books except made from paper).

Lol, I know what books are. They still exist and are still in use though I will admit I do prefer ebooks simply because you can have them all on one thing so you don't have to carry like 5 books around, just a kindle, ipad, etc.

But you do have to admit that books are a flat, one-way representation of reality right? I mean you might have read about people different from you in a book but it wasn't like you could IM them to have a conversation. I think until the internet most media was one-way only right?

So you are absolutely correct.

I had to give you a star because you do sarcasm and snark as well as anyone my age. There. Happy now?

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: theabsolutetruth

With age comes wisdom and with that comes the ability to see the bigger picture and having the confidence to say if society looks messed up and heading towards oblivion.

Right....

Ask yourself this question...who exactly are the people that have brought us to the edge of oblivion. The youth, millennials?

No it's the old people with wisdom and the ability to see the bigger picture.

Exactly. And most of what some of those people think is the edge of oblivion is stuff they probably won't have to live with much longer but like people my age will and will have to fix it. So it's like we get blamed for bringing society down but in reality most of what they think is bringing society down is either something they don't understand or something they started and those in my generation will have to correct for.

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: olaru12

When haven't we been at the edge of oblivion?

Or are we headed for certain doom because of something my generation specifically did?

It's the twerking obviously.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: olaru12

Seeing the bigger picture is how global agendas are made.

I didn't say ALL older people and was referring to those of wisdom with conscience and MORALITY

Weren't the 60s generation accused of being amoral by the older generation at that time?

originally posted by: kaylaluv
Interesting question. I'm not sure age has everything to do with it. I'm over 50, and I know of several regular posters here off the top of my head who are also over 50 who are much more open-minded and accepting than some of the younger posters here.

Yes, that's true. And as I said, I didn't mean to paint with such absolutes. I just noticed most of the criticism of recent progress towards greater inclusion seemed to come from ATS members who tended to be older and it seemed to me that if they were from the generation which brought about many social changes it was disingenuous to take some of the hard line positions towards other progress towards greater inclusion.

I think some of it depends on who your biggest influence was growing up. Mine was my mom, who was always very liberal. I remember her planning my 8th birthday party - she hand-drew personalized party invitations for every girl in my class. She drew princesses on the front of the invitations with each one having the same hair and eye color of the girl who was getting the invite. I had one black girl in my class, and she drew a dark-skinned princess just for her. She tried very hard to include this girl in the games we played during the party. I remember her telling me when I was older that some of the white girls' parents complained of their girls attending a party with a black girl. She wasn't exactly popular among the parents of my friends and classmates. Can you believe that? It was 1968, in the South (Texas).

Wow! You'e mom is a special lady for sure. So ahead of her time for where you lived and all the turmoil which was going on then. I'm very glad there were people like her (and you) around back then to help pave the way for a the world today.

Here's a question: Do you think things are better today than they were back then? If so, why? If not, why not? Or are they basically the same, neither better or worse, but with different/new issues and challenges.

And on a personal note, I was lucky enough to have a princess party when I was about a year older than when you had yours!!! I still remember it in detail to this day because as you might imagine it had a lot of meaning to me on a very deeply personal level of acceptance within my family.

Oh and my parents weren't liberal (as a few people on ATS assumed).

My father was a Navy engineer an economic conservative, and voted Republican until the 2004 election however he was "worldly" and I guess open minded on social issues. He's now an independent he says. Until recently my mother and her family voted Republican going all the way back almost to Reconstruction. Her family is one of those old, freed slave families which remained in the South. On social issues (beyond ones involving race), she tended to be slightly more conservative than my father. They both said, having me, dealing with me and seeking out answers and help for me caused them to re-evaluate certain things as a result of some of the people they talked with (ie: doctors, other parents of kids like me, etc) during my childhood.

That said, they both love me dearly raised me to question dogmas of all sorts from all sides of the socio-political spectrum and develop critical thinking skills at a fairly early age so. And that is something else i am forever grateful to them for giving me.

Now I know that not having that influence growing up doesn't necessarily mean you won't be more tolerant, as my mom grew up in a racist family with racist friends. She didn't know any other way. She didn't really think about racism as a thing until she started hearing about Martin Luther King Jr. when she was a young adult. She told me once that reading a speech he wrote absolutely transformed her - changed her life. She is in her mid-70's now, and remains a very liberal, open-minded and accepting person of everyone, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation.

That is wonderful, she was a true pioneer! You are very lucky to have her.

originally posted by: reldra
a reply to: JadeStar It's not age. I am generation X. So I would be in the middle here. The outrage is thinly veiled bigotry and 'victim blaming' for some made up erosion of society. The older people should actually know better. I am actually quite proud of millenials, my daughter being one. I am happy to have passed to her tolerance and caring that my mother passed to me.

That's awesome

I'll say most Generation-X people I've met have probably been the most open-minded older people I know (in general). I guess that's to be expected though since you all pretty much popularized the internet and invented social networking.

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: JadeStar

Jade. I can pretty much assure you that a strong percentage of those 'boomers' who took the social and cultural changes seriously back in the 60s are over joyed with this decision. Unfortunately those boomers were only a minority of that generation.

REALLY?!??!?!

Because nearly everything I have read or watched about the boomers make them out to be the vanguard of what became radical youth culture and progressivism.

I thought that after Woodstock, the people who WEREN'T hippies or at least identified with some of the social changes which they promoted and stuff were in the minority then?

:confused:

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: JadeStar

Just because people have a certain personality types that may be more femenine or more masculine does not necessitate that these individules be forced into sterio typical roles of Gay, Lesbian or transgender.

I didn't say that they should be forced into anything. Of course people have different personality types. They always have right? But AFAIK who people are attracted to or whether someone's sense of self is profoundly at odds with how they were born is a bit beyond simply having a more masculine personality as a female or feminine personality as a male.

BTW, I am boomer/GenX not fully boomer and not fully GenX

Thanks.

originally posted by: Battleline
a reply to: JadeStar

Well I hope when and if this country comes apart you have found out who's fault all this is ... because it will be the only satisfying mental thought you will have while attempting to survive.

You almost sound as though you hope it does fall apart.

Oh and when you see the OLD guys gathering up there kids and grand kids to attempt to survive the hell our illustrious governments have bestowed on us, don't even think of asking him for help...you would not want be a BIGOT ... now would you?

I don't get it. Why would asking for help make me a bigot in the event of a national emergency make me a bigot?

originally posted by: Shugo
At the risk of irritating several members in this thread, I must agree with a few others. The first three repliers to the OP in particular I agree with.

I hope this doesn't seem like I'm going off topic here, it's not my intent, but I'm trying to draw a line between certain occurrences and other happenings. Consider the world around us now. I'm not saying it's any more precarious now than it ever was, but lets momentarily take a good examination of the meaning of things today.

ok

How many people have degrees? How much easier is it for people to get a degree today than it was? Our degrees are getting weaker, especially in America (I can't speak for many other countries, and I won't, but it seems that the US is declining in education in particular, and I'd be surprised if we were the only ones).

This is a good point. I heard that tuition to go to a public college or university in some states (California) was FREE!? at one time?!!

Most people my age will be paying off our tuition for years and so that's why there are a growing number of college students going to study inGermany (and other countries) where higher education is still free.

I know of one girl who is there now and I also considered it but decided to go the traditional patchwork of scholarships/grants & student loans because a) the university I attend has a very good department which is renown for my major with many of the professors doing work in the field and b) i didn't want to leave my family and boyfriend so soon after high school.

In my opinion if places like Germany can offer free tuition even to foreign students then there is no reason that colleges and universities in the USA can not do the same other than greed by the banks and the control such banks have over institutions of higher learning in this country.

You've got a society and generation of people, who have had their education watered down so that it is palatable and everyone can say "they won." When in reality, not everyone can - and those who actually could are the ones that have to suffer because the norm has to be made to feel good.

I've heard this but I don't think it's at all accurate. I feel I've had a pretty good education so far and I know people who can't really say "they won" because they didn't make the grade, were lazy, asleep in classes in h.s. etc.

There's a lack of fundamental basics that aren't being taught

Like what?

- we talk about health like it's a religion but actually don't get irritated by the fast food commercials playing on TV or the radio every five minutes...really.

I get irritated by them. I've been out of the country and was surprised to see that most countries don't have ANYWHERE near the amount of ads for fast food another junk food.

That said, I pretty much get my TV from Netflix and Hulu and at my parents I just fast forward through commercials on the DVR. As for radio, it's all about Spotify and Pandora.

It's not just a democrat/republican or liberal/conservative thing either.

Agreed. They're more or less different versions of each other, often with the same donors behind them and ad agencies marketing their candidates. Some choice right? I know both parties have had people who have done great things in the past right? But it seems like all they do is fight each other on everything. I know it wasn't always like this, having read enough and heard about various compromises and coalitions between people on both sides of the aisle but that was before my time

As it stands today no one wants to work together. It's win at all cost rather than coming up with a win-win solution. And this is why many people my age don't want to get involved in politics.

Why does someone always have to say "I WON!" or "HAHA YOU LOSER!"

But then again didn't you point out that the problem today is that my generation has grown up believing that everyone can win? Perhaps everyone actually can in some way which is less than total victory / total domination?

I think politicians have forgotten that once elected they are public SERVANTS. They are there to serve US by getting things DONE.

I'll be glad when both parties are gone and the "Winner/Loser" zero-sum nonsense goes with them.

For some reason, we as a society insist that everyone has to be made to feel equal.

Why shouldn't we be treated as equal? Everyone should have equal opportunity to succeed and equal responsibility to contribute positively to society.

It's up to each person to determine what they do with their opportunity and responsibility from that point.

That means you can literally - and pardon my crassness - suck at a sport, or a subject in school, but you get to advance or have a trophy anyway, because we don't want you to feel left out. That's how bad we really are trying to appease people. Eventually, that's going to come back to get us.

I don't see what you mean here... No one wants to be passed on at the bottom of their class (it just gets harder for them the next year) or get a 3rd place trophy for that matter.

So, when I say that the world is going to hell - it's not because I think that "oh no, something progressive has happened." It's because the tolerance level is literally getting to a point where it is ridiculous.

I think you exaggerate a bit.

I don't honestly have a problem with LGBT "marriage" (although, I wish a different term would be used), but I can understand where people might be pulling their hair out over it - and they have every right to do so.

Marriage is what it is. It's a legal term. Why would you have a problem with it?

Would you want a separate term for, "property", "liability", "will", "estate" or other legal terms just because someone happened to be LGBT too?