Hacked Emails Expose George Soros As Ukraine Puppet-Master

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: JeanPaul

Oh, those evil Americans, they just control everything don't they?

Even if what you say is true - and I don't doubt for one minute that there is probably an element of truth in that - the people of Eastern Europe have never had it so good.

Economies have boomed since joining with the West (EU), markets have opened up, they are able to travel anywhere they please to find work, they have rights, they aren't subject to Secret Police arresting them and making them vanish, they can vote, standards of living have rocketed, healthcare provision is far better etc etc..

Life in Eastern Europe is a damned site better than it was under the Soviet yoke and I challenge you to prove otherwise - regardless if what you say about NGO's is 100% true.

The USSR is no more. I never said the USSR was favorable. Nothing you've said here has any relevance.

You're knee deep in "team USA" cheer leading. I on the other hand don't support the Russian or the US governments. I don't support China or Iran either.

The rational position is to criticize all of them.

originally posted by: JeanPaul
Washington has also been pushing for Bosnia, Montenegro and Macedonia to join NATO. Take off the intentionally placed blinders.

Washington can "push" all it likes, but it takes the entire Alliance to agree and the concerned country to actually apply for the MAP. In order to be part of NATO, a country needs to want to be part of NATO..

And you think it's me with the "blinders"....

a reply to: JeanPaul

"Team USA" cheer leading?

Please, point out my apparent US cheer leading. I'm stating it as it is, you;re the one twisting in the wind to try and paint the US in as bad a light as possible, while ignoring the fact that the people in these countries have done very nicely out of joining with the West.

Compare them to countries that remained closely aligned to Russia (or Russia itself), which retained the same old leadership structures and have barely changed since Soviet times. Rampant corruption, nepotism, dysfunctional economies, poverty....

It is easy to see why people desire closer links with the West and it has sod all to do with "Team USA" cheer leading.

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: JeanPaul
Washington has also been pushing for Bosnia, Montenegro and Macedonia to join NATO. Take off the intentionally placed blinders.

Washington can "push" all it likes, but it takes the entire Alliance to agree and the concerned country to actually apply for the MAP. In order to be part of NATO, a country needs to want to be part of NATO..

And you think it's me with the "blinders"....

Yes indeed I do. How much money do you think Washington injects into their political process? As if all this is just some natural "grass roots" push to join NATO.

originally posted by: JeanPaul
The USSR is no more. I never said the USSR was favorable. Nothing you've said here has any relevance.

I was using it as an example - as explained, those who retained close links with Russia have barely changed since the USSR times and it shows. All the while, those who have undergone proper reform - with or without guidance from NGO's and other nations - have prospered.

Everything I said has relevance, you just don't want to acknowledge it as it flies in the face of your rather puerile anti-US rhetoric.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: JeanPaul

"Team USA" cheer leading?

Please, point out my apparent US cheer leading. I'm stating it as it is, you;re the one twisting in the wind to try and paint the US in as bad a light as possible, while ignoring the fact that the people in these countries have done very nicely out of joining with the West.

Compare them to countries that remained closely aligned to Russia (or Russia itself), which retained the same old leadership structures and have barely changed since Soviet times. Rampant corruption, nepotism, dysfunctional economies, poverty....

It is easy to see why people desire closer links with the West and it has sod all to do with "Team USA" cheer leading.

All they have in store is austerity. They're being sold lies. Lies produced with billions of dollars in funding.


Ukraine should be left alone. World Bank and IMF should get bent. They will be plundered by Germany and France. Public services slashed. Wages will go nowhere. Gas/electricity prices will soar.

Both sides are parasites looking for a host, with one side having the added incentive to contain Russia. If you don't want to admit this it's your issue not mine.

originally posted by: JeanPaul
Yes indeed I do. How much money do you think Washington injects into their political process? As if all this is just some natural "grass roots" push to join NATO.

Oh, those evil Americans. Paying for people displaced by War to have their houses rebuilt, clean water provided, new schools and hospitals...

All the while, Russia does nothing. They are way down the list of any kind of foreign aid and even when they do, it is for their satellite states, such as Kyrgyzstan. They are the lowest foreign aid donor among the "G8"

It's for that reason people want to be close to the US. You may see it is a bribery or cajoling the people into joining NATO, but if you had a choice between a big meathead who will give you a smack round the back of the head if you step out of line, or another great lug who offers to help you with your DIY, who would you choose?

a reply to: JeanPaul

Ukraine is in urgent need of reform - sticking with Russia will merely cement the status quo of continue corruption, abuse of power and curtailing of basic rights. If they can get a handle on the corruption and collect taxes properly - much like Greece - then they can prosper.

I know you're one of these "anti-austerity" lot, which basically means you'll ignore the economic facts on the ground, stick your fingers in your ears, sing "La La La" and hope that somehow, money will appear from somewhere to carry on spending like you always have.

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: JeanPaul
Yes indeed I do. How much money do you think Washington injects into their political process? As if all this is just some natural "grass roots" push to join NATO.

Oh, those evil Americans. Paying for people displaced by War to have their houses rebuilt, clean water provided, new schools and hospitals...

All the while, Russia does nothing. They are way down the list of any kind of foreign aid and even when they do, it is for their satellite states, such as Kyrgyzstan. They are the lowest foreign aid donor among the "G8"

It's for that reason people want to be close to the US. You may see it is a bribery or cajoling the people into joining NATO, but if you had a choice between a big meathead who will give you a smack round the back of the head if you step out of line, or another great lug who offers to help you with your DIY, who would you choose?

Nonsense. The money didn't go to humanitarian aid. It went into "building democratic institutions". Stop lying.

All Ukraine will get from the US/IMF is austerity. And their productive capabilities will be plundered/sold off to western corporations.

Good whittle patriot. (Said in condescending voice as if talking to a baby)

originally posted by: JeanPaul
Good whittle patriot. (Said in condescending voice as if talking to a baby)

Behaving like Putin undermines your case.

originally posted by: JeanPaul
Nonsense. The money didn't go to humanitarian aid. It went into "building democratic institutions". Stop lying.

All Ukraine will get from the US/IMF is austerity. And their productive capabilities will be plundered/sold off to western corporations.

Bear in mind we were talking about Bosnia etc at this point as you claimed they were being "pushed" into NATO....

USAID in Bosnia - more than just "democratic institutions"

US Department of State Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration support for NGO's and Housing development

US State Department "Fact Sheet" for 2014 on US assistance to Bosnia - (historic Fact sheets here)

As you can see, US Aid to Bosnia is wide ranging and not limited to "building democratic institutions", but actually helping them build a functioning state, develop their economy, educate their youngsters ready for the world, train their security forces to be effective, help to break down ethnic barriers from the War..

Quite how you can paint any this as a bad thing is a mystery.

originally posted by: JeanPaul
Good whittle patriot. (Said in condescending voice as if talking to a baby)

I noticed you were losing the argument and this just confirms it. Rather than trying to counter the content of my posts, you'll attack the poster...

Yawn....

originally posted by: JeanPaul

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: JeanPaul
Yes indeed I do. How much money do you think Washington injects into their political process? As if all this is just some natural "grass roots" push to join NATO.

Oh, those evil Americans. Paying for people displaced by War to have their houses rebuilt, clean water provided, new schools and hospitals...

All the while, Russia does nothing. They are way down the list of any kind of foreign aid and even when they do, it is for their satellite states, such as Kyrgyzstan. They are the lowest foreign aid donor among the "G8"

It's for that reason people want to be close to the US. You may see it is a bribery or cajoling the people into joining NATO, but if you had a choice between a big meathead who will give you a smack round the back of the head if you step out of line, or another great lug who offers to help you with your DIY, who would you choose?

Nonsense. The money didn't go to humanitarian aid. It went into "building democratic institutions". Stop lying.

All Ukraine will get from the US/IMF is austerity. And their productive capabilities will be plundered/sold off to western corporations.

The money is easy to see where it went but you choose not to look because it hurts your theory. NGOS spend money on every aspect of people's lives. They try to improve medical issues like aids to educational doing things like buying materials and improving schools. They also do specific things like in Ukraine US AID spent 200 million cleaning up chernoble you know the mess Russia left Ukraine to deal with.

Your just a fool if you parrot what thsee lies of putin media without checking. Even a Google search tells you where NGOS spent money in Ukraine but I do agree it could be a threat to Russia improving the lives of Ukrainians make them realize how corrupt Russia is. And here's why if Ukraine turned around it economy like Poland improved education and Healthcare people would expect Putin to do the same in Russia and he not have that can he.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: JeanPaul

originally posted by: stumason

originally posted by: JeanPaul
Yes indeed I do. How much money do you think Washington injects into their political process? As if all this is just some natural "grass roots" push to join NATO.

Oh, those evil Americans. Paying for people displaced by War to have their houses rebuilt, clean water provided, new schools and hospitals...

All the while, Russia does nothing. They are way down the list of any kind of foreign aid and even when they do, it is for their satellite states, such as Kyrgyzstan. They are the lowest foreign aid donor among the "G8"

It's for that reason people want to be close to the US. You may see it is a bribery or cajoling the people into joining NATO, but if you had a choice between a big meathead who will give you a smack round the back of the head if you step out of line, or another great lug who offers to help you with your DIY, who would you choose?

Nonsense. The money didn't go to humanitarian aid. It went into "building democratic institutions". Stop lying.

All Ukraine will get from the US/IMF is austerity. And their productive capabilities will be plundered/sold off to western corporations.

The money is easy to see where it went but you choose not to look because it hurts your theory. NGOS spend money on every aspect of people's lives. They try to improve medical issues like aids to educational doing things like buying materials and improving schools. They also do specific things like in Ukraine US AID spent 200 million cleaning up chernoble you know the mess Russia left Ukraine to deal with.

Your just a fool if you parrot what thsee lies of putin media without checking. Even a Google search tells you where NGOS spent money in Ukraine but I do agree it could be a threat to Russia improving the lives of Ukrainians make them realize how corrupt Russia is. And here's why if Ukraine turned around it economy like Poland improved education and Healthcare people would expect Putin to do the same in Russia and he not have that can he.

You're not being honest. USAID and other "NGO's" were used in Ukraine to "promote democracy". The majority of funds from billions sent over did not go to feed the homeless or build housing or to fight disease. About $300 million went to humanitarian aid. The majority went to "building democracy".

They've done the same thing in Venezuela recently. Multiple wikileaks cables have exposed this. As far as Ukraine Victoria Nuland herself admitted to the "democracy promotion". Of course you'll post some nonsense from the State Department to "debunk" these claims but the reality is, the USA spends obscene amounts of money to subvert the political process in multiple nations. This has been going on since the end of WW2, it did not stop with the end of the Cold War.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: JeanPaul

Ukraine is in urgent need of reform - sticking with Russia will merely cement the status quo of continue corruption, abuse of power and curtailing of basic rights. If they can get a handle on the corruption and collect taxes properly - much like Greece - then they can prosper.

I know you're one of these "anti-austerity" lot, which basically means you'll ignore the economic facts on the ground, stick your fingers in your ears, sing "La La La" and hope that somehow, money will appear from somewhere to carry on spending like you always have.

I never said Ukraine should have accepted Russia's strings, although the 15 billion Russia offered, along with cheaper gas prices, would have been better than the austerity the IMF offers.

I advocate independence. I advocate rational financial institutions which don't build corporate wastelands via predatory loans. Conditions where western corporations plunder developing nations productive capabilities are not desirable and that's what the IMF/EU has to offer. Russia, on the other hand, isn't desirable either. Too many people hold this binary world view. Both entities tugging at Ukraine are wrong.

originally posted by: JeanPaul

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: JeanPaul

Ukraine is in urgent need of reform - sticking with Russia will merely cement the status quo of continue corruption, abuse of power and curtailing of basic rights. If they can get a handle on the corruption and collect taxes properly - much like Greece - then they can prosper.

I know you're one of these "anti-austerity" lot, which basically means you'll ignore the economic facts on the ground, stick your fingers in your ears, sing "La La La" and hope that somehow, money will appear from somewhere to carry on spending like you always have.

I never said Ukraine should have accepted Russia's strings, although the 15 billion Russia offered, along with cheaper gas prices, would have been better than the austerity the IMF offers.

I advocate independence. I advocate rational financial institutions which don't build corporate wastelands via predatory loans. Conditions where western corporations plunder developing nations productive capabilities are not desirable and that's what the IMF/EU has to offer. Russia, on the other hand, isn't desirable either. Too many people hold this binary world view. Both entities tugging at Ukraine are wrong.

Says alot when Ukrainians are desprate for money but won't take it from Russia don't you think? Wonder if it's because Russia uses its economic power to subject it's neighbors to there will?? As far as the west to say they are reluctant to loan money to Ukraine is an understatement. If it wasn't for the Russian invasion it wouldn't be happening.

a reply to: dragonridr

The USSR collapsed because they were clueless when it came to the economy.

Putin is a product of that time period. Russia demanded changes to the EU-Ukraine agreement, demanding over 2k products be removed because they would compete directly with Russian products. Putin is making the exact same mistakes that crashed the USSR.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: dragonridr

The USSR collapsed because they were clueless when it came to the economy.

Putin is a product of that time period. Russia demanded changes to the EU-Ukraine agreement, demanding over 2k products be removed because they would compete directly with Russian products. Putin is making the exact same mistakes that crashed the USSR.

You forget he put sanctions on Ukraine as well to try to force them to not sign the agreement with the EU. And even raised the cost of gas but at the time claimed it had nothing to do with their decision to join the EU. But then later says they could lower the coat if they don't. Even before maiden he caused the Ukrainian ecomomy to shrink 1.5 percent.