If you could end the world and renew it or stay as we are forever, Which would you choose?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I have never met him, nor have I ever taken issue with his efforts.

I apply a general sense of doubt since all I have seen from most people both powerful and not is blind self preservation. I have met the opposite for both.

I will say this: all the most noble endeavors came from people who had no reason to engage in them. I dont hold contempt for successful and powerful people. Some of the best people I met were WAY above me socially speaking. I am not stuck in blind hatred or love based on peoples position.

I dont blindly distrust powerful people. I distrust anyone who looks to preserve themselves over the group.

I understand it goes against human nature, but that is what we are at war with.

And we are.

We are losing too.

As far as some more Sci-fi...LOL I will repeat this:

Battlestar Galactica:
Adama: It's not enough to survive. One must be worthy of survival.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would volunteer for any endeavour to this end and be the poster child for hatred and backlash if it meant a better world could be made.

I wish to make us worthy of our place as well. Its not just about becoming stable or as they say "sustainable". I wish for mankind to be WORTHY of its future. It may not be now, but I am willing to try because I know the potential is there. To me, that is enough of a reason to try and sacrifice anything necessary for the task.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I have never met him, nor have I ever taken issue with his efforts.

I apply a general sense of doubt since all I have seen from most people both powerful and not is blind self preservation. I have met the opposite for both.

Well if Bill Gates were to turn around and give all his wealth away tomorrow, what would he be left with to help bring about change a week from now? Self-preservation is key to anyone's survival.

I will say this: all the most noble endeavors came from people who had no reason to engage in them. I dont hold contempt for successful and powerful people. Some of the best people I met were WAY above me socially speaking. I am not stuck in blind hatred or love based on peoples position.

I don't necessarily agree with that. There have been many good changes done for other than altruistic reasons. Look at all the things that Thomas Edison gave us, but Thomas Edison is a pure asshole, more motivated by money and selfishness than an actual inventor's drive. The discredit campaign against Tesla alone (killing an elephant to prove a point...) is just enough to get him marked in the famous assholes compendium, but he DID give us things like the light bulb as well.

I dont blindly distrust powerful people. I distrust anyone who looks to preserve themselves over the group.

I understand it goes against human nature, but that is what we are at war with.

And we are.

We are losing too.

As far as some more Sci-fi...LOL I will repeat this:

Battlestar Galactica:
Adama: It's not enough to survive. One must be worthy of survival.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would volunteer for any endeavour to this end and be the poster child for hatred and backlash if it meant a better world could be made.

I wish to make us worthy of our place as well. Its not just about becoming stable or as they say "sustainable". I wish for mankind to be WORTHY of its future. It may not be now, but I am willing to try because I know the potential is there. To me, that is enough of a reason to try and sacrifice anything necessary for the task.

I'd really just like us to not blow ourselves up or poison ourselves through negligence. Where ever our society takes us besides that, I'm ok with. I don't care about selfishness. Selfishness drives so much of human development, we can't get rid of it.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I would never ask a person who worked hard for what he has to "give it all away".

I dont think I said that.

Self preservation is good. BUT, the group must survive or else its not self preservation. Is it?

If no one else is left then he didnt really survive. Did he?

The group is necessary for any individual survival. In fact the justification for self preservation is THE GROUP. Instinct is geared to this end. We live on so as to keep a continuum to our existence collectively. You cant deny though that an oligarch for example doesnt have the same instinct for self preservation as someone like Bill Gates. Bill may think to keep the group around so as to survive in greater measure. An oligarch would look to the group to satisfy his self preservation even in the face of the groups demise. Therein is the root for distrust. Not all are on the same page.


We may agree on allot. I too dont want us to blow each other up or poison ourselves.

Depopulate the world? One would say to do so we can survive better, the other, would want it done so he doesnt have to compete so much and can do what he wants with less resistance. One would just kill us off somehow, the other would offer less barbaric ways to find a solution. The end is the same, but the means, oh the means, they do differ.

One sees might making right. The other seeing that strength must serve a purpose. In that I see worthiness for survival or not.

That is what makes self preservation worth it or not. I dont see the worth in the survival of an oligarch with the same money and power as bill gates. I do in his.

There is a HUGE difference in that.

Have a good one.
Hold it down.

a reply to: tadaman

I think you see too much either/or in the world. Things aren't ever that simple. There are a plethora of reasons why people do the things they do. To distill it down to a simple argument of selfishness vs selflessness isn't going to highlight the whole situation.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I didnt try to highlight the whole situation. I tried to talk about a possible solution to our collective problems. I wasnt really trying to merit or discredit our civilization. Saying you would not reset it says you think it meritorious of continuing unabated. Saying the contrary implies that you see its collective vice to outweigh its worth.

I dont really know what you are trying to argue. I get that you dont want to reset it if given the chance, though you think it will anyways and should be allowed to.

You agree that we shouldnt blow ourselves up or poison ourselves, though if we do nothing but continue down this path that becomes an ever increasing possibility.

You say that people dont understand those like Bill gates who tries to curb our destructive tendencies and is criticized for it, though you would see his efforts go without being very productive since you think we need to fall in order to learn. So maybe he should stop and let us fall so we learn.

I really dont know what to think about your position, since I dont yet understand it.

This is why I wished to avoid this conversation now several pages in without much more than a few things we do agree on.

You dont want to reset. OK, I get it. I dont know what else this is about. My opinion that we are heading for a reset anyways which could be controlled so as to preserve life and our current progress? The allure of just letting it all happen naturally isnt really that attractive to tell you the truth. I would rather it be a parachute ride we can control so we land near the airport....instead of a free fall into the middle of nowhere that breaks our legs....or kills us instantly.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I didnt try to highlight the whole situation. I tried to talk about a possible solution to our collective problems. I wasnt really trying to merit or discredit our civilization. Saying you would not reset it says you think it meritorious of continuing unabated. Saying the contrary implies that you see its collective vice to outweigh its worth.

I dont really know what you are trying to argue. I get that you dont want to reset it if given the chance, though you think it will anyways and should be allowed to.

That's probably because your definition of "reset" is different from my definition of "reset".

You agree that we shouldnt blow ourselves up or poison ourselves, though if we do nothing but continue down this path that becomes an ever increasing possibility.

Maybe. You never know what the future will entail. For all you know, ten years from now we could invent a device that negates all nuclear radiation in an area, effectively making nuclear weapons obsolete. Or a company/inventor has a breakthrough in desalination science and we gain the technology to cheaply desalinize ocean water. Neither of these things would be possible if we were to just give up and reset though.

You say that people dont understand those like Bill gates who tries to curb our destructive tendencies and is criticized for it, though you would see his efforts go without being very productive since you think we need to fall in order to learn. So maybe he should stop and let us fall so we learn.

I really dont know what to think about your position, since I dont yet understand it.

This is why I wished to avoid this conversation now several pages in without much more than a few things we do agree on.

You dont want to reset. OK, I get it. I dont know what else this is about. My opinion that we are heading for one anyways which could be controlled so as to preserve life and our current progress? The allure of just letting it all happen naturally isnt really that attractive to tell you the truth. I would rather it be a parachute ride we can control so we land near the airport....instead of a free fall into the middle of nowhere that breaks our legs....or kills us instantly.

My opinion is as such:

I don't want us to crash. I want to work to keep the system going as long as possible. While doing that, we can slowly work to change our ways and habits and phase out the destructive parts of our society. That being said, I DO think that given long enough and without enough attention given to it, we will snap back like a rubber band, and that snap WILL hurt society greatly. I just think that we've accomplished too much to just give up and abandon it.

To believe that our society isn't salvageable is a grim outlook that I'm not ready to adopt yet. The music industry alone keeps me happy with the way things are going. The people have finally wrestled control of the music industry out of the hands of the corporate bigwigs and because of it we are seeing an explosion of good music within the last decade or so. Granted, most of it isn't on the radio, but it really isn't that hard to find.

The reason for this is simple: The internet. The internet has given freedom to the people in ways that the people have NEVER seen in the history of the world. I'm not ready to give that freedom up all so we can "reset". We have yet to see the full effects of the proliferation of the internet and the freeing of information that it brings. We are starting to with places like the music industry, but that is just the beginning. Granted with the good we also have brand new ways that propaganda can be used against us, but propaganda is harder to use against an informed populace.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

To believe that our society isn't salvageable is a grim outlook that I'm not ready to adopt yet.

I think humanity is salvageable. Society....meh, it changes every hundred years anyways. Sometimes in less..I dont see what is so special about this one.

I would rather reset society and assure the survival of our species. I would rather reset it and make ourselves more worthy of our survival.

There are things that are nice, sure. I like music. I think its all trivial compared to the totality of our existence. Nothing we have made is terribly original as far as concepts and ethos. Nothing is new.

We are a rehatched world with new capabilities. That is all.

I dont think even all the music, movies, literature and advancements in science are worth our possible future. I dont think preserving them against all odds and at all costs is even in the spirit of those who came before us.

So I am supposed to hold on tight while we create many decades of damage in a few years with the hope that some miracle technology emerges or because someone NOT Jay Z makes a song?

I know its not that simple, though asking people to hold tight is not exactly reasonable.

We just keep on keeping then is that it? And what of those after us? they too keep on keeping? And the ones after them as well? then when we cant the last generation says well in order to keep on keeping, lets kill off these people....and they will. In order to keep on keeping we need to take away these liberties and these comforts and they will..


Because they were raised like us, to keep on keeping and never make the hard choices.

Maybe a reset as you define it and I do are both flawed concepts. I still think we need to take drastic measures....since we are doing the opposite of that now and have made just about ZERO progress....

When drastic consequences are on our doorstep we will take drastic measures. Instead of doing more than making temporary solutions to permanent problems as we do now.

You asked about suicide before. That is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Ignoring the societal decay and state of our world as time progresses is suicide. It is such by being a temporary fix to something that isnt going away. It wont solve itself.

Take measured steps? Sure....but be honest with them or just let things be. The carbon tax? You tell me that is not motivated by profit and creating another speculative market? If its about curbing pollution why place the profit incentive for the upper echelon? That is oligarch talk. You know how I feel about their worthiness for survival.

Just outright outlaw certain behavior and pollution. No fines, no increased taxes....jail like if it was murder and apply it FOR ALL. An unprofitable jail sentence for all. Taxing and trying to squeeze populations for more profit is NOT about producing a solution. Its about establishing more control so as to remain the same up top as the world changes below.

A reset would steal that ability from the top. THEY would be forced to reset with us. they too would have to change. What emerges after would be better than all of us. It woudlnt need harsh measures for control because it would be balanced already. It wouldnt need such strict checks and balances since the top would be the same as the bottom, and would be balanced as well.

You can have rich and poor, war and sickness after that....but you can trust that everyone sacrificed for the world and if they choose to ruin it its on them...though I suspect that they wouldnt.

a reply to: tadaman

Humanity can indeed be fixed but the price is a population reduction. Without such measures being implemented the quality of life regarding the majority of our populace is only going to decrees. Not to mention a massive shift is required as to how wealth is distributed among our people, obviously said wealth needs to be spread more evenly, there needs to be an end to the 1%ers hold and control over our financial systems and media networks.

a reply to: andy06shake

I think so.

The question is do we wait until there is only one way to go about it? Or do we take measured steps now....like sterilization for mass breeders and more concerted efforts for abusers?

I would prefer a controlled descent to stable levels, instead of one day our grandchildren having to form death squads to establish those numbers.

I would prefer being outright and reasonable than trying to incite gang violence or controlling population sizes via war or economic warfare.

I would just get it done already and make sure people understand why.

EDIT TO ADD:
The reason why the 1% dont like the idea of a reset is that THEY need to reset with us. They like things just as they are. They would prefer if we reset and they stayed the same. How nice for them.

a reply to: tadaman

Buddy i would have the politicians and there corporate oogart controllers swinging from a lamp post. Removing control from there sticky wee mits is never going to be a bloodless process and to be quite frank if something is not done about "Them" rather soon its going to be nigh on impossible to address the mess "They" have created considering our basic freedoms are being removed as the days go by.

All it takes for humanity to fix itself is for individual citizens and groups of citizens to address issues in their own communities. it is a fruitless endeavor to campaign and lobby to help poor starving families on the other side of the world if there are poor starving families in our own communities. It is a fruitless endeavor to worry about a company dumping toxic waste into the ocean if there are companies in our own communities doing the same.

Forget about the global issues for awhile, and just focus on our local issues. If we feel our local communities are just fine, then we can take what resources we have and channel them towards another cause, but I would venture to bet that there are more than enough local issues to help with to keep most people worried about the human condition plenty busy. And the fact that it is local means our efforts would actually make a bigger impact, and we are in a better position to make that impact on a daily basis.

The key to fixing global issues is to always start local. We just cannot beat ourselves up from knowing that it cannot be done in one generation. that is why i say it is important to build family trusts with clearly outlined goals for the benefit of our communities. This way there are established rules and resources for our children in grand children to tap into to continue with the efforts started by us.

It is a multi-generational mission. And even so as stated earlier the problems will never be 100% gone, but we can mitigate them as much as heavenly possible.

a reply to: DYepes

"All it takes for humanity to fix itself is for individual citizens and groups of citizens to address issues in their own communities."

Certainly a step in the right direction but im sure if it that was all thats required we would have managed to create the perfect society at some point in recorded history which we dont seem to have achieved to my knowledge.

Or if we have then they have kept themselves well hidden form our corrupt financial and organised religious orders which have pretty much been a cancerous sore since there inception.

Its humanities social paradigm that needs to change if wee are ever to achieve any balance.

a reply to: tadaman

Tadaman, I would pull the chain down below my feet to end it to start fresh. Look what is going on within our planet and above our planet. What's next junk up Mars. Your right it will get worse no questions asked.

People are getting more greedy. Women are treating men like the man is a potato in a slick swamp that used to be gold.

Let's start over. Will we have memories of the years we lived in the now? Will the change to day one have taught us a lesson?

My seven year wanted an iPhone when he was five. Yes my wife did add to the AT@T plan a new line so a then 5 year old could have a new iPhone 4. Now he wants the 6 LOL. When I was 5 my mom gave me two cans with a string attached to the other lol and said here is your phone.

So yes let's start from a day one!

Let's take money out of the world and see what happenes oh gas too.

I'd damn every soul in the universe to eternal torture then create new souls. Because I haven't liked any of you for a long time and just discover more and more reasons why suffering is best suited for you

I 'm with Mr FUNPANTS here^^^^^^^

I didnt read every post... but I say .. start it over, do a reset.