If you could end the world and renew it or stay as we are forever, Which would you choose?

a reply to: tadaman

Have you recently seen Avengers: Age of Ultron? I think that was the premise of the movie, new world without any Humans. End of the day once we manage to create a true artificial AI our days on this planet are most lightly numbered given our actions and seemingly unchangeable social paradigm.

As to whether or not i personally would institute such measures if i did somehow have the ability to do so, well im more of a glass half full type, there is always hope even for us semi clever Monkeys.

a reply to: andy06shake

Ironically, I think it would only be the highly developed civilizations that would be targeted by that kind of artificial intelligence. Indigenous groups & "primitive" cultures aren't the ones destroying the Earth through mass pollution, strip mining, nuclear contamination, etc. Most of their cultures live off the land completely, just like the rest of nature. Their foods are completely organic and their clothing & buildings are completely biodegradable too (or are simply rocks & dried mud).

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Its not the easy way out.

I described curbing our ability for malce.

We have grown in our ability to destroy and ruin the world while our ability to correct our behavior has stayed the same.

A little charity, a good deed here and there, while forces that might as well be acts of God in their scope and range destroy our minds and our world.

The easy way out is consuming this world and our souls while cheering "the consequences be damned". It is all done to protect our comfort.

Why doesnt a corrupt government face consequences? Why do high profile pedofile rings not ever get caught? Why are there huge industries surrounding illicit drug imports? Why are there still absurd wars for profit?

All these things are around because we are so comfortable that it doesnt bother us.

How do you feel about addiction? We are consumer junkies. Comfort fiends.

I wont apologise for thinking it. The world we have made is only comfortable and the necessary evils we think exist so as to keep the gears turning are just evils we accept after the sales price meets our own.

I keep on keeping....but I wont deny that something has to give.

Do you think we can just keep borrowing on tomorrow? Destabilizing areas economically and militarily for ever? THAT is what is necessary to keep our level of comfort. That we can keep poisoning our future crop land. Mining for minerals we dont really need to the point of making scars along the world that will take thousands of years to fill? We are running out of water, oil, fertile land, and living space that doenst need to encroach onto natural habitats. We are seeing mass extinctions of species at a rate we cant deny some responsibility for.

How do you feel about that?

I tell you how I feel. Guilty for the sake of my descendants. They will inherit a world in decline with systems of governance ever on the rise in wickedness and evil.

If you think its cool because you have it good, then fine. I am willing to sacrifice all my comfort so as to ensure our survival.

AND this is a sentiment I feel. I dont want to have billions of people to die. I want for us to start to transition into a more stable society with more responsibility and personal weight to our actions.

If that is too much to ask, then I say YOU are being unreasonable and choosing the easy way out instead of the ahrd path of sacrifice and cold hard logic in judgement applied to our actions and ethos.

a reply to: andy06shake

Hey there is hope. I do believe in humanity, maybe out of spite and in an act of defiance. I do believe.

I just know that there is a half way point. We need to be worthy of our survival. Just being born isnt enough.

If I can get a little sci-fi on you, it helps.

Battlestar Galactica:
Adama: It's not enough to survive. One must be worthy of survival.

William Adama:
The Cylon War is long over, yet we must not forget the reasons why so many sacrificed so much in the cause of freedom. The cost of wearing the uniform can be high ... [after looking at crowd] but sometimes it's too high. You know, when we fought the Cylons, we did it to save ourselves from extinction. But we never answered the question, why? Why are we as a people worth saving?

We still commit murder because of greed, spite, jealousy. And we still visit all of our sins upon our children. We refuse to accept the responsibility for anything that we've done. Like we did with the Cylons. We decided to play God, create life. When that life turned against us, we comforted ourselves in the knowledge that it really wasn't our fault, not really. You cannot play God then wash your hands of the things that you've created. Sooner or later, the day comes when you can't hide from the things that you've done anymore.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Its not the easy way out.

I described curbing our ability for malce.

We have grown in our ability to destroy and ruin the world while our ability to correct our behavior has stayed the same.

I don't know what you are talking about here. There is countless amounts of good being done in the world. Just because you don't hear about it all the time, doesn't mean it isn't happening. If you have become so negative towards the goings on in the world, then stop watching the news so much. It is effing depressing. The world isn't really that depressing.

A little charity, a good deed here and there, while forces that might as well be acts of God in their scope and range destroy our minds and our world.

The easy way out is consuming this world and our souls while cheering "the consequences be damned". It is all done to protect our comfort.

Negative.

Why doesnt a corrupt government face consequences? Why do high profile pedofile rings not ever get caught? Why are there huge industries surrounding illicit drug imports? Why are there still absurd wars for profit?

Because humans aren't perfect.

All these things are around because we are so comfortable that it doesnt bother us.

How do you feel about addiction? We are consumer junkies. Comfort fiends.

I wont apologise for thinking it. The world we have made is only comfortable and the necessary evils we think exist so as to keep the gears turning are just evils we accept after the sales price meets our own.

I keep on keeping....but I wont deny that something has to give.

Maybe, but why place worry in something that we can't know for sure is going to happen? Instead, place worry towards fixing the problems a little at a time.

Do you think we can just keep borrowing on tomorrow? Destabilizing areas economically and militarily for ever? THAT is what is necessary to keep our level of comfort. That we can keep poisoning our future crop land. Mining for minerals we dont really need to the point of making scars along the world that will take thousands of years to fill? We are running out of water, oil, fertile land, and living space that doenst need to encroach onto natural habitats. We are seeing mass extinctions of species at a rate we cant deny some responsibility for.

How do you feel about that?

I feel like we should work to fix it. Not just give up and go home.

I tell you how I feel. Guilty for the sake of my descendants. They will inherit a world in decline with systems of governance ever on the rise in wickedness and evil.

Which is no different than any generation that has come before us. The government we are subjected to is no worse than some of the governments in the past. This includes previous American governments. The corruption we see in government today pales in comparison to some of the levels of corruption that previous administrations saw.

If you think its cool because you have it good, then fine. I am willing to sacrifice all my comfort so as to ensure our survival.

Your solution is just awful. Just scrap EVERYTHING about our society like there is NO redeemable things to be had. What about the arts? What about our expanding knowledge of the universe? Even our history teaches us MUCH about how to behave. Instead of destroying history, like you are suggesting, we need to be TEACHING history. That way people stop pretending like we are living in the most dire times ever. We aren't. Humans have always been at each other's throats and they have always thought the end is near.

AND this is a sentiment I feel. I dont want to have billions of people to die. I want for us to start to transition into a more stable society with more responsibility and personal weight to our actions.

Then you need to put forth the effort to achieve that. Destroying everything and starting over will just result in us making the same mistakes all over again.

If that is too much to ask, then I say YOU are being unreasonable and choosing the easy way out instead of the ahrd path of sacrifice and cold hard logic in judgement applied to our actions and ethos.

I'm not choosing the hard way out. I actually want to work to FIX our system instead of just throwing it out altogether.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
Yeah I hope you enjoyed writing that. I am not debating you on my OPINION. I am not even going to read the rest of it. I tend to ignore my kids while in tantrums as well.

You dont agree. Fine.

You are not going to convince me otherwise. Literally, the totality of my life experience, the sum of all I have learned and seen have shown me that what the world is IS NOT its final form. That things MUST and WILL change and you can go kicking and screaming trying to claw towards the past away from progress.....or with dignity take a leap into the future not safe or assured but with the promise of something better. You can see death or transition. I dont care. What we have built is a house on sand.

I said my peace. You dont agree? Thats your right. But I will not try to pry your delusions from your eyes nor hold your hand and walk you through how all your justifications for a flawed world are wrong and drawn out of fear and your limited view of mortality.

originally posted by: tadaman
the sum of all I have learned and seen have shown me that what the world is IS NOT in its final form.

Then give it time to reach its final form.

Killing a caterpillar won't help it transform to a butterfly.

a reply to: swanne

True, but staying a caterpillar out of fear of the cocoon is just as detrimental to the butterfly.

I will say this and hope you guys realize:

The world we live in now is not conducive to change or progress. That our world as it stands, STANDS in the way of things to come.

That any bright future and new tomorrow without the evils of our day will not be like our world. Maybe it will have new evils, but as it stands, we have done, are doing and will do NOTHING to change. We only teter on progress always swinging back on the pendulum in favor of superstitions, die hard habits, and the small minded self centered fear driven animal at our core.

If we ever are to become more, then nothing much of who we are will be part of that.

Tell me, how much of who we are is what was even a decade ago? 2, 3, 4 decades ago? What future was dreamed then seems like a nightmare to us now. Hell, ask society in the 50s what would be nice for the future and they would tell you it would be great if blacks were all gone....if Russia was a nuclear wasteland....If women could have technologies to better care for their men....etcetera.

We are blind. We are small. We are nothing. We cant even make a case for our survival because we cant even understand ourselves and our nature. Our world we made is even a mystery to us.

I am not going to sit here and pretend that what we have is worth the loss of our tomorrow. Too ambitious? I dont care. The prospect of living another 2 thousand years as we have is nearly unbearable. I would rather TRY...and sacrifice all we must to achieve that better tomorrow.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Krazysh0t
Yeah I hope you enjoyed writing that. I am not debating you on my OPINION. I am not even going to read the rest of it. I tend to ignore my kids while in tantrums as well.

You dont agree. Fine.

Then why did you post this in a discussion forum? Why not just put it in a blog then put a link where the readers can vote and we can be done with this exercise? You don't have to be rude to me though...

You are not going to convince me otherwise. Literally, the totality of my life experience, the sum of all I have learned and seen have shown me that what the world is IS NOT its final form. That things MUST and WILL change and you can go kicking and screaming trying to claw towards the past away from progress.....or with dignity take a leap into the future not safe or assured but with the promise of something better. You can see death or transition. I dont care. What we have built is a house on sand.

I said my peace. You dont agree? Thats your right. But I will not try to pry your delusions from your eyes nor hold your hand and walk you through how all your justifications for a flawed world are wrong and drawn out of fear and your limited view of mortality.

Way to close your mind.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I said my peace, heard you out, and denied an argument about OPINION.

What? We are going to discuss the finer points of how our world is so wonderful and balanced while all the evidence shows the contrary? How you are going to tell me that I am wrong in asking for a better world and not settling for the one handed to me?

You think I am wrong. Cool

I wont sit here and thank God for air conditioning and running water, though those things are awesome considering MILLIONS of people have them.

I would sacrifice it all if it meant that the party could continue well into the future. Those things arent exactly the cats meow. They are nice and novel, not in any way changing the human condition. We are better pampered animals still.

I WANT MORE. And I am willing to sacrifice more for it.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: swanne

True, but staying a caterpillar out of fear of the cocoon is just as detrimental to the butterfly.

I will say this and hope you guys realize:

The world we live in now is not conducive to change or progress. That our world as it stands, STANDS in the way of things to come.

This is impossible. Our world and every species on it will continue to change as we march into the future. The world our children know as adults will be VASTLY different than the ones we know today. Change is also neither good nor bad. Change always has positive and negative outcomes, neither of which can be fully predicted.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yes, we cant predict change and its outcome.

Saying that resetting to less pampered, less technologically able times is unpredictable in terms of outcome. You are arguing that such a world would be worse. How do you know?

You make a prediction....like me. Only you argue for NOT changing.

Fear.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I said my peace, heard you out, and denied an argument about OPINION.

Isn't that the point of discussing opinions, to see if yours is founded on all the facts?

What? We are going to discuss the finer points of how our world is so wonderful and balanced while all the evidence shows the contrary? How you are going to tell me that I am wrong in asking for a better world and not settling for the one handed to me?

What evidence? You lamenting the news of the day from the MSM isn't really evidence. Have you tried comparing and contrasting today's events to events in the past? Have you tried looking at some of our problems and then look to the past to see if the people in the past tackled a similar problem, and if they did how they fixed it?

You aren't asking for a better world. You are asking for a blank slate. There is a big difference between the two. -I- am willing to work to fix the system we have until the very last minute and it can no longer sustain itself. Humans have accomplished much in these past 6 or so millenniums since writing was invented. To scrap it all because you don't like what it has produced, is short sighted.

With this OP, I think your avatar is incorrect. You should have a picture of Gozer there, not Peter Venkman.

a reply to: tadaman

I believe Krazyshot is actually saying that Change IS unavoidable.

The thing is, we can all change. At the end, the World is made of us; it is made of you, and me. If we all work for change, then the World changes proportionally.

Let's be the future we want to see. No worldwide destruction is required: we already have the solution right here on Earth - us. The material world is irrelevant in the face of the nations of our minds.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yes, we cant predict change and its outcome.

Saying that resetting to less pampered, less technologically able times is unpredictable in terms of outcome. You are arguing that such a world would be worse. How do you know?

I don't, but I can say that without the accrued knowledge of our past, we WILL fall into our old ways. Once the restrictions of our modern society are let loose. Expect the attitude of "Might makes right" to reemerge.

You make a prediction....like me. Only you argue for NOT changing.

Fear.

You keep saying I don't want change. I DO want change. I just don't want to start by blowing everything up first.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Well, like I said, I am not going to debate if the world is great. I am sure its nice.

You just argued that there is no evidence of what I said. OK....

That really is where the conversation ends. You think I am completely wrong and unfounded. OK

I dont know if you honestly believe that or are being obtuse to prove a point.

I RESPECTFULLY choose not to entertain your conversation. Thank you, but no thanks.


P.S.
I never said "blow it all up". I said transition cutting away the fat. The excess. We dont need half this crap and its in our way.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Well, like I said, I am not going to debate if the world is great. I am sure its nice.

You just argued that there is no evidence of what I said. OK....

More like you are refusing to understand my argument and are putting words in my mouth.

That really is where the conversation ends. You think I am completely wrong and unfounded. OK

I dont know if you honestly believe that or are being obtuse to prove a point.

I RESPECTFULLY choose not to entertain your conversation. Thank you, but no thanks.

Like I said, way to close your mind.

P.S.
I never said "blow it all up". I said transition cutting away the fat. The excess. We dont need half this crap and its in our way.

This is YOUR line from the OP:

If given the chance to end the world and reset it all to zero.....or continue as we are for eternity....

Resetting to zero IS blowing it all up. Nothing is left except humans. No clothes. No shelter. No weapons. Nothing. Just naked humans against nature.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Resetting doesnt mean we stay at zero.

It means we reevaluate what is important.

As of now we have no purpose in growth. We grow economies to the point of detriment because we dont see a point or direction. Even now we are hitting the ceiling of our possible growth. The only possible outcome is disproportionate distribution.

Lets say we just level the playing field. In one more generation after that event, you have 3 times the population and the same problem is present again. What? We just make LARGER economies to support the disparity produced? Give useless purpose to people so they dont tear it all down in fits of anger and rage induced by frustration and suffering?

We expand population centers to a point of running out of natural resources and dieing out. Again, no purpose.

We grow in our capabilities for war and control because we cant figure out a way to make due with what we have. No direction is leading us into other peoples backyards with the same lack of direction.

We dont need billions of people when we cant educate, feed and cloth them all. We dont need to be comfortable when we are living in constant fear...thats pretty uncomfortable and leads to animalistic behavior. Mobs and mobs with the mentality of locusts.

We need to start fresh. With a purpose. Balance is a pipe dream now. What we strive for is keeping the tipping point bending and twisting so it doesnt snap. That is all.

How hard is it to admit that we what we have built will fall hard one day and kill MANY more than if we start to transition into something a little more stable and purposeful?

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Resetting doesnt mean we stay at zero.

It means we reevluate what is important.

I don't know what definition of "reset" that you operate on, but the one I operate on means you go back to the beginning. That's what I got out of your op. Go back to the beginning or do nothing. Neither option is respectable.

As of now we have no purpose in growth. We grow economies to the point of detriment because we dont see a point or direction.

We expand population centers to a point of running out of natural resources and dieing out. Again, no purpose.

We grow in our capabilities for war and control because we cant figure out a way to make due with what we have. No direction is leading us into other peoples backyards with the same lack of direction.

We dont need billions of people when we cant educate, feed and cloth them all. We dont need to be comfortable when we are living in constant fear...thats pretty uncomfortable and leads to animalistic behavior. Mobs and mobs with the mentality of locusts.

We need to start fresh. With a purpose. Balance is a pipe dream now. What we strive for is keeping the tippping point bending and twisting so it doesnt snap. That is all.

How hard is ti t admit that we what we have built will fall hard one day and kill MANY more than if we start to transition into something a little more stable and purposeful?

Everything has to die sometime. I certainly DO want to transition to something more peaceful and stable, but I want to do it peacefully. In order to do it peacefully, you have to convince everyone it is a good idea. You don't force them to do it.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

We agree in principle.

I think the problem is you think I am arguing for forcing it on others. Blowing it all up. It may come to that because we arent even willing to address this logically and wont until we start to suffer later because of our choices now.

As we have seen, not many are willing to see the bigger picture and out of fear FOR THEMSELVES and their comfort, would deny countless generations beyond them a better future. We think we NEED air conditioning to be COLD when its hot out, and enough water for a kings pool, not a bath, the ability to check your mail on your phone so you can see what cool topics people are talking about is more important than the technological waste we produce. Etcetera.

How many phones have you had in the last 5 years? Where do they go?

How many cars have you had in the last 30 years? Where do they go?

How many gallons of water have you wasted while you listen to music in the bath tub? Where does that go?

How many wrappers and plastic things have you tossed into the garbage? "" "" ""?

The list goes on and on.

How many wars have been waged in your short life over oil? Can you see the future where water is fought over? Fertile land?

How many people do you know that died from cancer? If you think something we are doing is not contributing to the mass detriment of health world wide then I am sorry. I cant even touch that subject.

How many species have gone endangered in your life time? Extinct? How many of those have been brought back to stable numbers?

The list goes on and on.

yet I am supposed to sit here and sip my coffee and watch TV thinking I am worthy of this mess? That my childrens children are less worthy than me....that I can have my generation borrow on their future in terms of wealth, resources and stability with nothing to answer for?

There is only one solution. We must sacrifice more.

The problem is that like governments that take away liberties and freedoms and never give them back, PEOPLE never give up comforts and pleasures once obtained.

We are blind. Fear and selfishness govern us still.