Hope for the Middle East? Is there any?

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

My apologies.

I fully intended to reply, but wanted to watch the video, as well as read the transcript you posted.

But time caught up with me, and then I completely forgot about your post. I will respond, tomorrow hopefully.

Again, my apologies. It wasn't deliberate on my part.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: xpert11

I realize that, in the real world, that that is what will, in reality, happen. I can, however, advocate for other solutions.

I apologize if I have at all come down to hard on your ideas. I welcome your input.

The sword has never provided a permanent solution. Death, and more death, brought about by centuries of the sword begets more of the same down through time.

Winning the peace is always harder than winning the war. Just look at how the failure to secure the peace after WW1 doomed the next generation to fight another war.

No matter how just the solution someone comes up with, there will be more blood. I certainly don't see anyway to prevent it. Solutions should be sought, however, that minimize it, if it's at all possible. Which it may, in truth, not be...

Compared to liberating Western Europe from Russian occupation and turning back the Chinese in the Pacific does concern me more the Middle East theater. If I may be so cold Iran's fanaticism is a substitute for its lack of industrial capacity.

I do trend toward the pessimistic when thinking/writing about this region...

Certainly it gravely concerns me how the kids in high school are going to have to pay the price in blood for the mistakes that have been made in the last fifteen years and at present. Coming back to the topic I do think that if he could TE Lawrence would see recognise the post world war order in the Middle East. Much of his vision for the Middle East will be realised a century on.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Gianfar

If you want an open discussion about how to bring peace, then addressing the biggest threat to world peace would be in good order.

What is that threat?

I think I know where you're going with this, but I may be wrong.

So please, feel free to elucidate.

My case is made in the lengthy post (History and knowledge...) toward the top of the page. It may be pointless to elaborate if you didn't read between the lines. I always try to illustrate my views through accurate historical accounts, rather then emotional responses and semantics, which is a huge issue on forums.

The only issue that matters in Israel's elections

I grew up in a settlement. I met more Palestinians that the average Israeli. But it was only during my military service in the West Bank that I realized our 47-year rule over the occupied territories must come to an end.

By Shay Davidovich

Elections have always fascinated me. As a child, I insisted on staying up late to hear the preliminary results and the party leaders’ initial responses – all happy to declare the dawn of a new era. The soldier’s votes were always counted late, but were never seemingly influential, at most one seat here or there. Interested in politics from a very young age — I was a strange child.

I grew up in the settlement of Ariel during the Second Intifada. As buses exploded in Tel Aviv, we weighed each and every potentially dangerous ride in and out of the settlement. Like many of my peers, this period shaped my political perception more than anything else. I must admit that I did not understand why it all was happening. What was perfectly clear, however, was that when I turned 18 it would be my turn to take up arms and protect my community — my country.

The first time I participated in the democratic process was in the occupied territories, in uniform. After basic training, we were sent to our first operation: guarding settlements in the South Hebron Hills. I didn’t really know where I was, but it didn’t matter very much. It was our turn to fight. Our commanders did their best to clarify that training was over and that now everything that happened from now on would be the real thing. My squad was assigned to Susiya, a settlement near a Palestinian village bearing the same name. I quickly understood that I was the only one who didn’t know where it was located. During our service in Susiya, our commander was also the settlement’s security officer — a settler. After a briefing we took our posts, and I volunteered for the first shift that observed the neighboring Palestinian village. To be honest, I was disappointed. All our preparation seemed meaningless in the stillness and beauty surrounding me.

A few hours into the shift, the settlement security officer drove up to my post in his car and told me to come quickly. An obedient soldier, I followed him into his car and we drove out of the settlement. Minutes later, we got out of the car to chase the target, which took me a few seconds to identify. The settler ran up a hill, and I followed close behind. Instead of an armed terrorist, I found myself chasing a little boy, maybe five years old, stark naked except for his blue rain boots, who was running away while crying hysterically. My first instinct was to freeze and try to understand what on earth was going on. But I really couldn’t grasp anything that was happening, and since the settler was still chasing the boy, I followed him.

At some point the boy disappeared and the officer walked back to his car, me still following him, confused, catching my breath and asking him to explain. He took me back to my post and praised my determination. I was back standing in that still and beautiful place. Previously, army procedures had seemed illogical, but something about this particular situation seemed even less logical than the sergeant’s orders. Something about chasing a naked child when I was armed completely contradicted the logic I was raised with.

The assignment in Susiya was my first encounter with a reality I hadn’t known about before. I grew up in the occupied territories, encountering more Palestinians in my life than the average Israeli does. But it was during my service in the West Bank that I realized I really had no idea what was going on. From our first days on assignment, it became clear to us that we were not there to protect the settlers from the Palestinians, but rather to protect the Palestinians from the settlers. That is certainly not what the civilian security coordinator told us, but that is essentially what we did in practice.

During one of our first days there I was at that same post when suddenly I heard cries of “Soldier! Soldier!” It took me a few seconds to realize that the calls were coming from the Palestinian village; a group of young settlers had set off for the Palestinian village with stones in their hands. One of my officers later criticized me for not alerting forces earlier. How could I have guessed that the very same guys who had kept me company on my shift, before disappearing, planned on going into the village to beat up Palestinians?

Accepting the occupation’s twisted logic

It was election time, and the army’s mobile voting station pulled up at the settlement. Another soldier took over for me so I could go vote. It was my moment to do something, and so I voted for the only left-wing party I knew of: the Labor Party. I immediately called my mother, who was the most political person I knew. I had to tell her about what I had done and explain that she had no idea what we were doing here. For me, voting was much more than my civil duty; I felt obligated to take a stand against the community from which I came. For the first time in my life I felt that maybe those “lefties” really knew what was going on here and would do everything in their power to end it. I simply could not consent to what I was doing there.

You have forgotten me – you have forgotten your children. I am addressing those who do not understand that we cannot come to terms with the occupation. We cannot come to terms with a reality in which we soldiers have been sent to the occupied territories to control the Palestinian population for over 47 years. I have been active with Breaking the Silence for two years, as well as with other Israelis who served in the army and who grasp the moral price we are paying for the occupation. I share my military experiences in the West Bank with young people throughout Israel, taking Israelis on tours to Hebron and the South Hebron Hills, so that they can see the reality of occupation for themselves.

I look at the young soldiers stationed there and see myself: an 18-year-old boy, motivated and convinced of what we are doing there, but mostly a boy who follows every order he is given. A week ago I spoke to a courteous combat soldier who tried to explain that Hebron isn’t Tel Aviv, and that it is completely reasonable to have sterile streets on which Palestinians aren’t permitted to walk, even if their front door faces that street. Soldiers accept the occupation’s inverted logic. That is our problem.

It is us you have forgotten. Ending the occupation is not on the agenda of any of the larger parties. It isn’t sexy, it aggravates people, it puts off voters. We at Breaking the Silence will still be here after the elections to break the silence about the reality in the occupied territories. We have just one request: please do not vote for anyone who will keep us in the territories.

Israeli election tomorow, 17th March 2015.

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke
The only issue that matters in Israel's elections

(PARSED QUOTE) I grew up in a settlement. I met more Palestinians that the average Israeli. But it was only during my military service in the West Bank that I realized our 47-year rule over the occupied territories must come to an end.

By Shay Davidovich

Elections have always fascinated me. As a child, I insisted on staying up late to hear the preliminary results and the party leaders’ initial responses – all happy to declare the dawn of a new era. The soldier’s votes were always counted late, but were never seemingly influential, at most one seat here or there. Interested in politics from a very young age — I was a strange child.

I grew up in the settlement of Ariel during the Second Intifada. As buses exploded in Tel Aviv, we weighed each and every potentially dangerous ride in and out of the settlement. Like many of my peers, this period shaped my political perception more than anything else. I must admit that I did not understand why it all was happening. What was perfectly clear, however, was that when I turned 18 it would be my turn to take up arms and protect my community — my country....


...It is us you have forgotten. Ending the occupation is not on the agenda of any of the larger parties. It isn’t sexy, it aggravates people, it puts off voters. We at Breaking the Silence will still be here after the elections to break the silence about the reality in the occupied territories. We have just one request: please do not vote for anyone who will keep us in the territories.

Israeli election tomorow, 17th March 2015.

Great post! Thanks for that. Israel is run by a small group of fanatics who would otherwise become irrelevant if it were not for the security state agenda and the constant provocation of violence from the Arab sector. Israel has become a rogue state that threatens world peace. The Obama administration should really consider ending or at least reducing the more than 60 billion in US tax funded economic aid package which abets Israeli war crimes on Arab families. Israeli Jews have been forcing Arab families out of the region at gun point for over 80 years, and its about the right time to put an end to US invested genocide.

a reply to: Gianfar

.

Israel is run by a small group of fanatics who would otherwise become irrelevant if it were not for the security state agenda and the constant provocation of violence from the Arab sector. Israel has become a rogue state that threatens world peace. The Obama administration should really consider ending or at least reducing the more than 60 billion in US tax funded economic aid package which abets Israeli war crimes on Arab families. Israeli Jews have been forcing Arab families out of the region at gun point for over 80 years, and its about the right time to put an end to US invested genocide.

So then, Arabs are absolved of all wrongdoing, and not responsible for any of the giant mess we see going on today?

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: Gianfar

.

Israel is run by a small group of fanatics who would otherwise become irrelevant if it were not for the security state agenda and the constant provocation of violence from the Arab sector. Israel has become a rogue state that threatens world peace. The Obama administration should really consider ending or at least reducing the more than 60 billion in US tax funded economic aid package which abets Israeli war crimes on Arab families. Israeli Jews have been forcing Arab families out of the region at gun point for over 80 years, and its about the right time to put an end to US invested genocide.

So then, Arabs are absolved of all wrongdoing, and not responsible for any of the giant mess we see going on today?

The roots of honest discourse are found in history. This subject matter is likely the most determinable in relation to the defining moment of western democracy (and Israeli, Jewish survival) or their collapse. A conversation predicated on any grammatical argument that focuses on current or historically recent events does the subject a brutal injustice. Anyone who refuses to examine the underlying social mechanism and broader political instrument of violence and terrorism is not holding himself (...or herself) to the higher intellectual challenge that this planet and its inhabitants need to have a future at all.

a reply to: Gianfar

The roots of honest discourse are found in history. This subject matter is likely the most determinable in relation to the defining moment of western democracy (and Israeli, Jewish survival) or their collapse. A conversation predicated on any grammatical argument that focuses on current or historically recent events does the subject a brutal injustice. Anyone who refuses to examine the underlying social mechanism and broader political instrument of violence and terrorism is not holding himself (...or herself) to the higher intellectual challenge that this planet and its inhabitants need to have a future at all

Agreed. Now as far as an answer to my question?

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: Gianfar

The roots of honest discourse are found in history. This subject matter is likely the most determinable in relation to the defining moment of western democracy (and Israeli, Jewish survival) or their collapse. A conversation predicated on any grammatical argument that focuses on current or historically recent events does the subject a brutal injustice. Anyone who refuses to examine the underlying social mechanism and broader political instrument of violence and terrorism is not holding himself (...or herself) to the higher intellectual challenge that this planet and its inhabitants need to have a future at all

Agreed. Now as far as an answer to my question?

Your question is appreciated, but as posed here doesn't address the context and causality this matter deserves. It fails to explain the concurrent factors that have led us to now. If the extent of your question is therefore designed to merely dilute the deeper premise, focusing only on the concurrent conflict of ideology, it may not be worthy of a response. If you see yourself as a writer, scholar and fighter (as your byline suggests) then perhaps you should consider a more thorough approach which includes the rationales that Arabs use to attack Jewish settlements in their territory and challenge the legitimacy of the Jewish state. If you are the scholar you claim to be, we will soon enjoy a conversation about facts, instead of simple semantics.

a reply to: Gianfar

You know, it becomes obvious that you take great care in sentence structure, and choosing your vocabulary, in an attempt I suppose to fashion your posts to be "intellectual", but actually they accomplish only a thinly veiled attempt to avoid answering the question.

Nor has your condescension gone unnoticed (climbing a tree to tell me.... I don't have the historical data to comment, nor do I understand the current situation. I asked you a simple, one line question. : )

I suspect you feel I have painted you into a corner, and you prefer to squirm there in your vocabulary, then simply admit that Yes, in fact,[ Arabs have substantially contributed to the chaos and bloodbath which is their region of the planet.

But you're right. Further discourse is useless, as you seem unable to admit, even to something that is quite obvious to any one who has the slightest knowledge of the region.

I asked the question not to put you on the defensive, but rather to see if you would retract/reconsider you stance that the U.S. and Israel are 100% responsible for the horror over there.

You've nonetheless answered my question. You won't.


BTW: Since you mentioned it, the "Writer Fighter Scholar" titles are awarded to some members by ATS. One does not simply place those titles there oneself. Thought you might like to know that. You have a nice evening.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: Gianfar

You know, it becomes obvious that you take great care in sentence structure, and choosing your vocabulary, in an attempt I suppose to fashion your posts to be "intellectual", but actually they accomplish only a thinly veiled attempt to avoid answering the question.

Nor has your condescension gone unnoticed (climbing a tree to tell me.... I don't have the historical data to comment, nor do I understand the current situation. I asked you a simple, one line question. : )

I suspect you feel I have painted you into a corner, and you prefer to squirm there in your vocabulary, then simply admit that Yes, in fact,[ Arabs have substantially contributed to the chaos and bloodbath which is their region of the planet.

But you're right. Further discourse is useless, as you seem unable to admit, even to something that is quite obvious to any one who has the slightest knowledge of the region.

I asked the question not to put you on the defensive, but rather to see if you would retract/reconsider you stance that the U.S. and Israel are 100% responsible for the horror over there.

You've nonetheless answered my question. You won't.


BTW: Since you mentioned it, the "Writer Fighter Scholar" titles are awarded to some members by ATS. One does not simply place those titles there oneself. Thought you might like to know that. You have a nice evening.

My definition of intellect has nothing to do with responding to your question. Apparently you feel that getting someone to answer to such an obviously ordinary, divisive response is a symbol of your intellectual prowess. I respectfully disagree. From where I stand, this is a common emotional response I often encounter to repudiate the message and shoot down the messenger. I don't feed into such circumstances by offering the response. Spreading the blame around obfuscates the relevance of the discussion and the particular focus on pertinent historical data.

Perhaps some see it as indefensible that I should be unapologetically vocal and sharply poignant regarding US and Israeli policies. Nevertheless, I am well acquainted with the designs and purposes of their methodologies and here to say something about that.

And yes, they are "100% responsible" for where we are today, because they have the authority and means, and there is a mountain of evidence supporting the facts. If you're having an emotional reaction and taking offense, you would be well advised to ask yourself why. The sign of a real intellect isn't hurling semantics to silence them, its the questioning of one's own opinions and reactions. Am I perfect? Far from it, but I've done my homework and paid my dues. I'm talking about what I know. If people aren't interested, no problem.

Admittedly, I do become fragged dealing with people who fight tooth and claw with every fear based rationale from the psych manual, because the inconvenience of truth is just too painful. The reality of social fragmentation leading to global conflict is simply too horrible to even admit.

Honestly, if anyone has a come back for my one sided world view, I'm all ears. It better be good, because the Arabs have been defending themselves against western and Jewish intrigues since the 9th century. But if someone is in denial and therefore trying to drag me into a finger pointing contest to obfuscate the hard cold reality of their despondent, dysfunctional ideology - thats not a discussion. Thats a personal problem.

My congratulations for your ATS award.

a reply to: Gianfar

Apparently you feel that getting someone to answer to such an obviously ordinary, divisive response is a symbol of your intellectual prowess.

Actually, no. Never crossed my mind. I asked you a one-line question. For whatever reason you have elected not to answer. Is this based on your own emotions?

This is a common emotional response I often encounter to repudiate the message and shoot down the messenger. I don't feed into such circumstances by offering the response.

There was nothing emotional about my question. It was quite straightforward in response to a very sweeping statement you made. How did one question cause such an emotional response from you? Apparently I hit a nerve? I sincerely didn't mean to cause you any pain, and quite frankly am rather shocked that such a question could create such a disturbance for you.

Spreading the blame around obfuscates the relevance of the discussion and the particular focus on pertinent historical data.

Who is spreading blame around other than you? I simply suggest that circumstances and finger pointing are not done in these circumstances quite so easily as you might like them to be. Unfortunately, the situation is quite beyond black and white by this time, and one must be able to see the grey areas as well. And the red. And the yellow. For one who claims to know all the circumstances, you seem to have managed to reduce it to the black and white you want it to be, and have dismissed the very blatant historical factors you don't like.

Perhaps some see it as indefensible that I should be unapologetically vocal and sharply poignant regarding US and Israeli policies. Nevertheless, I am well acquainted with the designs and purposes of their methodologies and here to say something about that

You might want to brace yourself, because there are many others here also quite studied in ME affairs. I certainly can't say the U.S. and Israel policies and actions haven't had their roles, but also I cannot, and don't understand how anyone could claim that ME countries haven't played a significant role in adding to the turmoil. As I said earlier, the Arab/Islamic contributions to the seemingly never-ending nightmare are quite substantial. Whether you see it or not --(based on your own emotionality perhaps?)

And yes, they are "100% responsible" for where we are today

Interesting perspective. Astonishing that anyone could actually entertain that in view of current events, and any idea of personality responsibility, self control and free will, and any value of human life.

Admittedly, I do become fragged dealing with people who fight tooth and claw with every fear based rationale from the psych manual, because the inconvenience of truth is just too painful. The reality of social fragmentation leading to global conflict is simply too horrible to even admit.

Sorry you are in so much pain. It is indeed a painful situation, and troubles most of us daily. Solutions seem also incomprehensible at times it has gone so far away from what most of us would like, which is peace.

I also find it disdainful when people target innocents, no matter their geographic location, religious preference, color, or any other factor that sets them apart from the mainstream. Not just a few, but all. It troubles me greatly.

My congratulations for your ATS award.

No need, but thanx.

edit on 3/22/2015 by ladyinwaiting because: (no reason given)

And yes, they are "100% responsible" for where we are today

Interesting perspective. Astonishing that anyone could actually entertain that in view of current events, and any idea of personality responsibility, self control and free will, and any value of human life.

Admittedly, I do become fragged dealing with people who fight tooth and claw with every fear based rationale from the psych manual, because the inconvenience of truth is just too painful. The reality of social fragmentation leading to global conflict is simply too horrible to even admit.

Sorry you are in so much pain. It is indeed a painful situation, and troubles most of us daily. Solutions seem also incomprehensible at times it has gone so far away from what most of us would like, which is peace.

I also find it disdainful when people target innocents, no matter their geographic location, religious preference, color, or any other factor that sets them apart from the mainstream. Not just a few, but all. It troubles me greatly.

My congratulations for your ATS award.

No need, but thanx.

d/p

The Future of the Middle East

For several months, Barack Obama has been trying to change US policy in the Middle East in order to eliminate the Islamic Emirate with the help of Syria. But he cannot do this, partly because he has been saying for years that President Assad must go, and secondly because his regional allies support the Islamic Emirate against Syria. However, things are slowly evolving so he should be able to do so soon. Thus, it appears that all States that supported the Islamic Emirate have ceased to do so, opening the way for a redistribution of the cards.
...

a reply to: Gianfar

I have been up till now a long time supporter of the two state solution for Israel / Palestine, I have always thought this would be the only way a long term peace could be established given the turbulent history of these two sides.

But after witnessing the strange election results last week and the probable return of Netanyahu together with his proclamation of a single state solution,I am now starting to wonder if a two state solution could ever work.

Consider the reality of a two state solution where the borders between the two Countries would be heavily guarded but still porous, where Palestine as a state could legally buy arms of any type and could launch massive attacks on Israel forcing Israel to invade this new Country.... Etc etc etc

All I can really see is a continuation of the present status quo only worse...

But if and I know many on here will hate me saying this , but if Israel were to absorb ALL of the West Bank and Gaza and become one state , there would be international outrage and Israel would become isolated initially but eventually as an apartheid state ( which they would be) they would be forced to give all Palestinians the vote and more powers. Eventually the country would have to like South Africa democratise and become a multi racial democracy.

Of course this would cause more anger from the Palestinians at not getting their state but Israel would also have to give up its claim to a totally Jewish homeland also.

Will this ultimately be the way forward for Israel , can we expect to see this happening in the next decade and two or three generations from now could we finally have the beginnings of a peaceful "Israel"....

Thoughts anyone.....

originally posted by: seagull

Many years ago, a charismatic leader arose in the Middle East. He brought a message from God. He was the Prophet Mohammed. Charismatic. Intelligent. ...and perhaps unsurprisingly, fairly proficient with a sword. He began the process of uniting the Middle East under the banner of Islam. His followers, generations of them, continued to build on the groundwork that he laid.

While you seem at least superficially set on treating the Middle East without falling into the pit of one or another agenda, your description of the so called Prophet Muhammed sounds a little like the North Korean Ministry of Propaganda describing Kim Jong Un.

One of the problems in our relationship with islam as westerners is, are we going to allow ourselves to apply critical thinking in this approach, or are we simply to accept the 'islamic' version of things? After all, the western world has spent more than a century evaluating its own faith, and it's still an ongoing process. We have removed the words 'unsayable' and 'untouchable' from our vocabularies, and we can openly criticize prophets and presidents alike.

In my humble point of view, many muslim societies suffer from an intellectual sclerosis in the sense that they do not allow you to criticize islam. I would go so far as to say that almost all serious historical and anthropological research on Muhammed and the early islamic movement today is made by non-muslim researchers, some forced to publish under false identities because of the risks they run by questioning the dogma. Note that we're simply talking about the right to voice opinions, not denouncing islam as evil. So with all due respect, I would like to drop your Muhammed intro into the loo and replace it with my own.

The so called prophet Muhammed was a fairly odd and enigmatic man, unschooled and most probably illiterate. He was a shepherd until the age of 25, when he married his female boss, the 40-year-old wealthy merchant Khadija. Muhammed now became a merchant and his social status changed. At the age of 40, he claimed to have been visitied by the Angel Jebreel (Gabriel), who told him he was the prophet of God. He created a sectarian, religious/social movement that slowly came into conflict with the ruling elite in Mecca. He and his followers were forced to take refuge in Medina. As his movement grew, he seems to have become embittered by the resistance his messianic mission faced. He started a guerilla war against the authorities in Mecca, raided caravans and disturbed the economical balance established by his enemies in the region. The stronger the movement became, the more violent and suppressive it became, which is to be expected from a 7th century Arabian tribal organization. While initially admirative and inspired by Judaism and Christianity, he turned against those communities who refused to convert. He raided the Jewish community of Banu Qurayza and beheaded 600 to 900 men, enslaved the women and children, because they sided against him in the growing conflict. As Muhammed eventually got the upper hand on the ruling tribe in Mecca, he assembled an army of 10 000 and returned to the city in a largely bloodless take over. As the power structure for his new religion was in place, he sent out his armies to convert the rest of the world, burning and pillaging themselves through a – at the time – largely Christian Middle East.

[SNIPPED]

a reply to: MrSpad

Then why are middle class kids joining ISIS? Religion, death, heaven, hell. Those are the choices their parents raised them with and now the consequences of the brainwashed BS.

originally posted by: Nedusa
I have been up till now a long time supporter of the two state solution for Israel / Palestine, I have always thought this would be the only way a long term peace could be established given the turbulent history of these two sides.

But after witnessing the strange election results last week and the probable return of Netanyahu together with his proclamation of a single state solution,I am now starting to wonder if a two state solution could ever work.

Consider the reality of a two state solution where the borders between the two Countries would be heavily guarded but still porous, where Palestine as a state could legally buy arms of any type and could launch massive attacks on Israel forcing Israel to invade this new Country.... Etc etc etc

All I can really see is a continuation of the present status quo only worse...


Of course this would cause more anger from the Palestinians at not getting their state but Israel would also have to give up its claim to a totally Jewish homeland also.

Will this ultimately be the way forward for Israel , can we expect to see this happening in the next decade and two or three generations from now could we finally have the beginnings of a peaceful "Israel"....

Thoughts anyone.....

I am still in favor of a two state solution, not because I think the Palestinians deserve a state more than any of the many ethnic groups that want one in the Middle East, such as the Kurds, but because the United Nations took a resolution upon it which should be respected.

Of course, giving up land for peace in the Middle East does not work. Israel gave up Gaza, which brought them nothing but rockets and bad press. If a Palestinian state came into being today, what would it be like? Would it arm itself to the teeth, would it fall victim to another hardline fanatic movement? To islamic fanatics, I suspect it would simply be a new frontline.

If we really want to see a Palestinian state within a functioning peace process, the world community must be smarter than that. They way I see it there's a solution.

There's a 20% Palestinian population in Israel. Most hardline Israelis see this as a bad thing. Most Palestinians imagine a future Palestinian state as 'jew-free', that is a purely Palestinian/Arab state. If there was however a Jewish minority living in this future state, both states would be responsible for these ethnic minorities. Ancient Kings in Europe used to marry their sons and daughters to neighboring kingdoms in order to secure peace, see it as a hostage situation if you like. Which is why I support the idea of Jewish settlements in the West Bank. They are important to the future Palestinian state. It's important that Palestinians realize that the solution to their predicament is not to get rid of the Jews. The Jews have always been there and are not going anywhere. Eventually it's about learning to respect your enemy, as a first step towards a distant peace.

Yes I agree having a Jewish minority in the West Bank would equalise the overall situation and possibly allow both sides to accept compromise. But ultimately I see this as one overall multi religious state eventually with political power shared and an end to the human rights abuses.

The only problem to this is the length of people's memories and for how long they wish to keep the hatred alive on both sides.

If both sides really want peace you have to wonder why there has not been any lasting peace in all these years..