Apostle Paul makes you complicit to evil leaders due to stupidly false assumptions

This is Pauline (Apostle Paul) logic:

Romans 13:1-3 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong.

Note that evil and corrupt leaders have existed in Paul's times.

Paul is the #1 apostle to many Christians. The bulk of New Testament was apparently written by Paul.

******* He makes a false assumption that all leaders are good!!! ******

Paul is also the same apostle who taught women to subject themselves to their husbands and banned them from leadership. We know this teaching doesn't produce any good results in the real world!!! The WEST have ditched the practice and have become one of the most peaceful nations on Earth with the highest average quality of living!

The most hell-bent religious nations, including nations who are not religious but neglects the welfare of women are infested with crime, human rights abuses, and generally miserable living conditions on average - despite having high levels of economic growth like China, India, many Middle Eastern Nations and many deeply RC Christian nations.

We see here that money isn't a huge factor in having a nation with high average standards of living but how it uses sound logic/wisdom and its treatment of women. The more stupid the leaders are, the worse off is a nation despite a high national income.

We can also conclude that money - making had nothing to do with wisdom but rather the opposite. Greed seems to be making life on average more difficult. The desire and envy to get rich is making everyone miserable but the few thieves who reap from the stupidity greed causes.



Abrahamic religions wage war against sound reasoning and logic and against women.

a reply to: johndeere2020

Paul changed the teachings of Yeshua into what would make the Romans happy. Christians today do not really believe the way Jesus believed. We have believed what Paul taught. And Paul perverted the gospels.
www.youtube.com...

The pagan Roman God "Jesus" was an off shoot of Zeus.
www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Pauls teachings are BS. To keep the masses controlled. Im sure his teachings have played a huge part in Christians accepting and supporting corrupt Govts.

The earliest bible translations, show that the bible we have today, isnt the same as the earliest copies. To really get to know that Jesus believed and taught, you need to go back to the original texts, before the "Holy" Roman Empire perverted the teachings to suit the Roman Masses.
The history of Christmas, and the pagan origins it has, is the same foundation Christians base their faith on. Its all lies.
Ive been a christian all my life, it broke my heart to find all this out. But, if you want to worship in Spirit and Truth, then you have to discover what the real truth is. And Paul was an Apostle of Satan, a liar.

originally posted by: johndeere2020

******* He makes a false assumption that all leaders are good!!! ******

Sort-of. I personally think that Paul meant to simply reiterate what the Lord had already proclaimed, render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar's. I think he meant that one should respect the laws of the land, and not just their own mores and values, as long as they reside there. He didn't say to tolerate poor leaders, or that we should all bow to tyrants. Think of it as bending without breaking. You live as moral an existence as you can in immoral places. Not everyone can choose where they live, and none of us can choose where we are born.

Paul is also the same apostle who taught women to subject themselves to their husbands and banned them from leadership. We know this teaching doesn't produce any good results in the real world!!! The WEST have ditched the practice and have become one of the most peaceful nations on Earth with the highest average quality of living!

The most hell-bent religious nations, including nations who are not religious but neglects the welfare of women are infested with crime, human rights abuses, and generally miserable living conditions on average - despite having high levels of economic growth like China, India, many Middle Eastern Nations and many deeply RC Christian nations.

We see here that money isn't a huge factor in having a nation with high average standards of living but how it uses sound logic/wisdom and its treatment of women. The more stupid the leaders are, the worse off is a nation despite a high national income.

We can also conclude that money - making had nothing to do with wisdom but rather the opposite. Greed seems to be making life on average more difficult. The desire and envy to get rich is making everyone miserable but the few thieves who reap from the stupidity greed causes.

Abrahamic religions wage war against sound reasoning and logic and against women.

Actually there is a lot of logical thought when it comes to religion. Some of the greatest thinkers of the past, spend countless times contemplating the Divine. It is only really anti-theists, and a few others that claim that religion and science are incompatible. I beg to differ. That is an ignorant statement designed to belittle, and dismiss. Not to mention the fact that China, India, et al, are secular (Atheist) or non-Abrahamic religious nations. With India being mostly Brahman and a mix of a few other faiths. You can't really use those IMO to denigrate the Abrahamic faith. If you really wanted a good example, you would use a more widely accepted nation, like America. Which you sort-of alluded to in your OP.

a reply to: johndeere2020

I hope Paul's afterlife consists of nothing but watching women stay in abusive relationships because of his teachings.

I believed what he taught for a long time until I realized that his philosophy for having a good marriage just doesn't work unless you married a perfect man.

a reply to: misskat1

All of what you posted is false. It never ceases to amaze, how people can claim to be raised in a religious home, and yet they still don't get the religion they were raised on. You have to know that Satan lies. You wrote so yourself! Yet somehow, the Bible is in error. You claim to believe, and yet claim that somehow, the Lord would allow a man to pervert His word. You're either claiming that the Lord is fallible, or that he would (for some reason), allow his Word to be altered. Neither is the case. If you don't truly believe in the Lord's power to preserve His word, then you don't believe in Him. They are part, and parcel. Either the whole Bible is false, or it is entirely true, there is no in-between. Paul did what he was told to do. He visited the apostles in Jerusalem and spoke with Peter, and James, the brother of Jesus. IF Paul had been altering the message of Christ, why would they not have killed him as a heretic? You have fallen for a lie. Please educate yourself in the ways of the Lord, and learn who and what He really is, not what some people on YouTube say He is. You cannot pick and choose the parts you 'like' from the bible and discard the rest, because you don't understand the hard parts.

a reply to: Chronogoblin

How do you know that the bible is the infallible word of god? Because it says so? Well, can't argue with that. How convenient.

a reply to: johndeere2020

I interpret what Paul wrote as spiritual and civil instruction to his fellow Christians as being very much what Christ taught.

We know what happened to the Jewish people and the original Jewish Christians when the Jews started their rebellion. It brought doom on all Judea, mass slaughter and the destruction of the Temple and much of Jerusalem.

Jesus established what Heavenly authority is and what earthly authority is; "Give to God what is God's and to Cesar what is Cesar's". He healed the Centurion's servant who was a military commander for the occupying force that was the Romans.

The whole point is that the Jews were looking to a military Messiah like King David. That was what men wanted, but not God.

Jesus showed us that turning the other cheek was what He desired. If your enemy strikes you on one cheek give him the other. He lived up to His Words during His trial and execution. Paul did exactly as Jesus taught and preached. He was beheaded at Rome under Cesar's order. I do not call that fraternizing with the enemy.

Christ tells us through St John that "he who lives by the sword will surely die by the sword". He is telling us not to use the sword and military might against our enemies.

Christ even told us to LOVE our enemies and pray for them. That is a bit different from going to war with them isn't it.

I would suggest that it is fine to be a Christian who resists, but not one who rebels. Rebellion is the act of claiming that your authority is greater than the authority you are at enmity with. It is not God who is telling you to rebel. You are doing it of your own will and putting the authority of humans before God in terms of importance as though it is ever going to solve a problem.

War means killing. Christ did not teach this did He.

I see no disparity between St Paul and Christ, not even slightly and that is why I trust St Paul; because what I see with my own eyes.

We know what happened to the rebellious Jews at Masada. They were robbers of their own people even to sustain themselves. Ultimately most of them perished by the sword of their own and the few remaining leapt to their deaths. Was not Christ proved right?

I know some have a problem with Paul and they accuse him of advocating slavery and obeying of the earthly authorities if it did not interfere with Christ's Teaching. By one's good nature and actions and the humanity we have even for our enemies we stand a much better chance of winning them over. Do not IS, HAMAS, etc prove this point day after day? That is the alternative. That is the fruit of rebellion.

In my own life I do this. I respect authority. I don't want to topple the earthly powers. What would we replace it with? It would just cause a lot of murder and mayhem and ultimately the replacement would slowly drift into exactly the same mistakes.

Martin Luther King had complete success. He did not preach hate or rebellion. He won people over on a mass scale because of his positivity and conviction, WITHOUT violence and rebellion. He did it in a Christian way. He did it St Paul's way. He did it Jesus' Way.

"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" says Jesus.

Show authority by our love and conduct the benefits of Christianity as a civil choice.

For example if I call Mr Rothschild all the horrible names, rebel against him and try to bring him down; well he is going to become my enemy and to tell you the truth I will probably end up penniless. He is much more powerful than me and I am not as good a banker as he. There is nothing I could really do better than he in finance. He is given authority by God to be in that position because he IS in that position. I am not given authority by God to be in that position because I am NOT in that position.

Who is following Christ the most, you saying that St Paul is wrong because you say we should be allowed to rebel and that Christ taught the doctrine of rebellion, or Christ, St Paul and me who say love your enemy, don't rebel, don't use the sword?

If you don't believe us try it out for size. See what happens them come see me and I will say "Christ told you so"!

EDIT; I used The Rothschild example not because they are my enemy, but because they appear to be the enemies of many members here. They are blamed, scapegoated, racially abused, slandered, have lies made up about them, etc. No way will I ever be part of such hatred and hence why I do not trust rebellious people, just as Jesus and Paul told me not to. I win. I get to have a life free of hatred and earthly responsibility and accountability. Even better, I'm not penniless and neither am I in prison. I get to speak freely whatever I want to say (I do not want to say violent or threatening things because I abhor violence, just as Jesus and Paul told me how to behave). How can the authorities be my enemy in this modern age when I am free to worship my God and free to be a Christian?

a reply to: Chronogoblin

The problem is, that I did educate myself. If you would watch the youtubes, you would have realized they arent just people making stuff up on youtube. Take some time to listen to Professor Eisenman on the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The Christian Religion is as pagan as Christmas.

a reply to: Chronogoblin

You claim to believe, and yet claim that somehow, the Lord would allow a man to pervert His word. You're either claiming that the Lord is fallible, or that he would (for some reason), allow his Word to be altered. Neither is the case. If you don't truly believe in the Lord's power to preserve His word, then you don't believe in Him. They are part, and parcel. Either the whole Bible is false, or it is entirely true, there is no in-between.

I like this reasoning. So now the next step is to prove that a claim in the bible is wrong and we can discard it as mythology. Good thing the bible contradicts itself on the regular.

I've never really understood why churches exist (besides money making machines) because of Matthew 6:6

5"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.…

I know this is off topic but I was just wondering if anyone knew the reasoning?

originally posted by: JessicaRabbitTx
a reply to: johndeere2020

I hope Paul's afterlife consists of nothing but watching women stay in abusive relationships because of his teachings.

I believed what he taught for a long time until I realized that his philosophy for having a good marriage just doesn't work unless you married a perfect man.

Sorry, I'm taken.

(Couldn't resist)

a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

This doesnt sound too peaceful to me.

Mt 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and one's foes will be members of one's own household.

Gospel of Thomas:
16 Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to bring peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war. For there will be five in a house: there will be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone.

originally posted by: Chronogoblin
Either the whole Bible is false, or it is entirely true, there is no in-between.

A textbook example of what many would call the fallacy of the false dilemma, not to mention, a perfect example of extremism.

The book we currently call the bible is little more than a political document used to encourage submission to "higher authority."

Slaves, Obey your masters ... wives, Obey your husbands ... Obey the rulers, the priests, and any other charlatan that wants to control your life, ESPECIALLY if they claim to be doing so in god's name.

/sheesh

a reply to: ChronogoblinKeep going chronogoblin, I'm with ya.

Excellent responses. I may chime in if time permits.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Religion is the Mother of the biggest Conspiracies. Most of the new testament was written by Paul. Every written word that didnt reflect what the Roman Empire wanted to be taught was left out, burned, destroyed. Anyone and everyone who had a different version was MURDERED.
Thank Yeshua that he has preserved his true teachings for us today, in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Texts.

The truth will set you FREE!!!! Do your homework Church!!

a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

It makes no difference how popular I am on this site. I will challenge because I see it as a duty. It makes me realise how well I am doing in my interpretation of Scripture. Rejection will always be a clear sign.

originally posted by: misskat1
a reply to: Gryphon66

Religion is the Mother of the biggest Conspiracies. Most of the new testament was written by Paul. Every written word that didnt reflect what the Roman Empire wanted to be taught was left out, burned, destroyed. Anyone and everyone who had a different version was MURDERED.
Thank Yeshua that he has preserved his true teachings for us today, in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Texts.

The truth will set you FREE!!!! Do your homework Church!!

... or ... there are multiple layers of mere human storytelling that have been used for political control by the few over the many for millennial.

Tell me, why should I believe that your friend Yeshua is anymore real than any other mythological beings including say Sophia, the Demiurge, etc. ... particularly if, all the records have been forged or misrepresented, as you say here?

What sets the DSC and Nag Hammadi texts apart from potential fabrication, in your mind?

originally posted by: misskat1
a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

This doesnt sound too peaceful to me.

Mt 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and one's foes will be members of one's own household.

Gospel of Thomas:
16 Jesus said, "Perhaps people think that I have come to bring peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war. For there will be five in a house: there will be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone.

It is your failure to understand what Jesus meant. He has been proven quite correct. You are at enmity with Christ and I. Members of my own family ostracize me because of what I say and do as a follower.

YES, Christ is the Divider. He separates the wheat from the chaff. It is a spiritual WAR. I fight Satan all my waking hours and the flesh of my being. It is a decision I made long ago. I am not looking to this world. The world is yours if you want it. You do not have to follow Christ. You can say whatever you like to disagree with him. For every question a non believer has I am given an answer to. It even helps me better understand each time. In a round about sort of way those who really abhor Christianity here have in fact been my teachers.

In the Spirit of Christ I am dividing, too. What I am writing will divide people, mostly against me, lol. Christ was not telling lies. His intentions during His last visit were not to bring the thousand years of peace at this time. He has not brought peace as we can clearly see.

He says,

"Peace be with you". he means that we make our own peace. It is ours to give and ours to take away. I have very successfully made my own peace. If you could see just how gentle and peaceful my life is then you would know that I have been successful.

If you want peace, peace is yours to give to yourself. Your own power, brought about by your own soul and actions. I'll leave you guys to carry on. I have said what I wanted to say and gone the extra length here to even answer another question. It is the best I can do and I am satisfied with my performance, so,

"Peace be WITH YOU"!

a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

Please dont take my opposing response as somehow opposing you or rejecting you. It has taken me a long time to come to grips with what I think, is the Truth about Paul. I feel as your sister in Christ it is my duty to reach out to anyone stuck in what I think is Dogma.
I was raised a Jehovahs Witness. I came to terms in my early twenties (I was a pharisee of pharisees lol) that it was a pack of Crap. So, I tried to jump right in to the "Just Try Jesus" movement, and it worked for a while, but, I just couldnt stop asking questions. And the answers didnt add up. Im in my 50s now and Im still asking questions. I should add too that I have loved the Jewish traditions since a child, and was uncommonly interested in their Culture at like 6 (JWs love that stuff) and I love History.
We know that Jesus was an Essene. And the closest true account of how He would have lived, and how He would have believed, He left hidden in Quamran. The Village of The Essenes. The same God that is big enough to preserve the bible in the hands of men, probably left a back up copy, if man should fail Him. Man failed Him. There are too many changes from the 3rd century bibles to the 7th century bibles. Go back to the ancient manuscripts, listen to the professors and archeologists and scholars especially the Hebrew scholars.
If you love History watch the documentries about it. Quamran is possibly where Jesus' brother James the Just or the Righteous was buried. By the way Jesus actually left the care of the Church to James. His brother.
Dont just trust a man who claims to have had a vision, of seeing Christ. Paul may have, but I think the vision was colored by what already believed. Research who Paul was, the history of Tarsus and where and how he was educated. Find out who his family lineage was, remember he was a Roman Citizen. Im telling you the Truth will Set you Free!!