The forgotten legacy of reincarnation in early christianity

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Hi there BuzzyWigs, The expanded head sensation sounds very interesting but no, I can't say I have experienced that. Is there any other phenomena that accompany this sensation or does it appear to be a physical thing?

The dark entities are something which are commonly associated with people who experience what science refers to as 'sleep paralysis' also referred to in some cultures as the old hag.

The scientific explanation does sound quite plausible unless you experience it regularly and also able to see the phenomena from a metaphysical perspective. It is not a dangerous situation, but can be very frightening until you learn to control the experience The common belief is that everybody will experience this at least once in their life but for many, it is a common thing.

I have also been visited a number of times by the dark entities who loom over you, Wait, What

I see what you did there

Sorry, I split my infinitives.

a reply to: kennyb72

I've never had sleep paralysis. But I do have very vivid and lucid dreams.
I know that when we are sleeping, our brain puts our muscles on 'pause' so that not many of us sleep-walk or whatever. Mr Wigs and I (who sleep beside each other) often have 'jerking' motions when we are falling asleep or actually asleep (and in separate sections of the bed) - a sudden movement of the arm or leg....
but it's not stifling at all.
It's just weird.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I've never had sleep paralysis. But I do have very vivid and lucid dreams.

often have 'jerking' motions when we are falling asleep or actually asleep

Vivid lucid dreaming, can be very interesting at times, particularly if you have total recall. Quite often this sort of dream doesn't appear as wild or as disconnected as ordinary dreams and I often wonder if they are accounts of meeting others on an Astral plane.

I think most of us have the jerking sensation as we fall asleep, it is quite often accompanied with a sensation of falling backwards and we try to stop ourselves, that's my experience anyway.

Is your head still expanded by the way? does anything else feel different when you experience it?

All purely in the context of reincarnation, hidden in the bible so as to stay on topic of course

a reply to: LABTECH767


Back to your OP.......there is no legacy of reincarnation in Christianity. There may be a legacy, and it hardly rates the term, of several nut jobs that incorporated anything and everything into their cult craft. Not just eastern but anything you can think of. Just mix it all into a big batch of esoteric slop! And feed on the slop like.....wow there is a chunk of this and here is a chunk of that.....chucks of "stuff" floating around in a base stock of assorted extracts.

And thats what it is. Claiming that Christianity has a legacy of reincarnation is just about the sloppiest sort intellectual dishonesty. This thread proves that people will follow their itching ears into half baked truth and find comfort in mystic succotash.

a reply to: Logarock

I do disagree with you Logarock, now yes there were cult movement's that altered the perceptions of many people and we are seeing the legacy of this new age movement in the reinterpretation of established religion but you have to remember that there is actual data proving that there were movement's within the church to remove reference to reincarnation and to remove the belief in it.

You have to see this world as a kind of death even if they were reincarnated as they are going nowhere but if they grow closer to god then they are freeing themselves from this created state and entering a higher state of being, this is something a Buddhist or Hindu will recognize immediately as they see being reincarnated as a kind of curse and like the baptism they believe being buried in the Ganges or the Sarasvati (which is now lost since an ancient glacial collapse changed the course of the river's source) would free them, the idea is to wash away the sinful nature and the connection to this world so that the soul can move on, of course the hindus believe it is only necessary to throw there ashes into a river as well as try to balance there karma but we believe we have to be born again in the spirit a living rebirth but we too must try to live a decent and christian life, what is christian by the way "Do unto other's as you would have done unto you and try to be a good person as well as harm no one", you know there are many who spout the bible but know nothing of God's heart, then again neither do I as it is God's heart, man does not live by bread alone but by every word of God.

It is given for a man to be born once, then to die, they the resurrection.

You must be born again into the kingdom of God to live, is this simply the baptism or does it mean inward as our nature grow's closer to what we must be to survive.

He who would save his life must lose it.

By the way I am in no way dishonest so that jibe show's the greatest level of ill mannered yet subtle insult and mysticism smacks to me of occult, Jesus was about opening your eye's but then you still have to be willing to look, he will only take your sight to eventually make you see as he did with Saul and for god all avenues are open, if he want's to send someone back that is his choice and right so unlike you I do not put limitation's on God's power but in him we are family remember that, if this harm's you faith then ignore it as that is not my intention.

Of another note Logarock I know that demon's are real and that is not a joke, I also know angel's are real but the Angel's at least are not limited to one form and I know that God is real but can I define God, NO, I Know that Christ is real but I have said I am open to the very real possibilty of reincarnation.

It was in 545 that Justinian banned belief in reincarnation, it was about a hundred year's later that Islam rose in the east, a dual assault on the faith of many christians and this worm is still being fed by the corrupt venom it put into the church half a millenium after our lord ascended, today there are authority's who regard it as herrasy and yet if they were to face some of those eary christian's they would be the heretic's.

Whose face is it on this coin, render unto ceaser what is ceaser's and unto God what is God's.
reluctant-messenger.com...
share-international.org...

After the division of the western church following the Protestant reform's the protestant church continued to propegate the earlier ban, why should they not as they did not have access to the full christian history being born from a single book the Bible as it had been revised under Constantine and Justinian.

You have your belief and I DO NOT CONTEST it Brother but neither to I close my mind to the possibility that this is correct, in fact both are correct as being reborn into this world is not life but being born in Christ is.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: kennyb72

It is so hard to describe it, as there is nothing really to compare it with.

I've only gotten this far through your post (which I already starred), but wanted to ask you -
have you ever that 'expanded-head' feeling?

When I was a little girl, sometimes I would notice this feeling of my head being bigger than my skull.....like a 'bubble' that was bigger than my 'head'. All my life this has happened.....and now, after so many years, I can pull it up at will. Like right now - I have 'expanded head condition'.

Do you, by any chance, know what I mean?

Thanks for your post.

Not exactly Buzzy but I always felt like I was larger than this body (I am six foot and was one quite muscular - the only weight lifing I do these day's is a chip butty) and if I was to use the strength within I felt as if I might break the body so had to be careful with it, I always felt like I came from somewhere else though and like this was a place I did not want to be.

a reply to: Logarock

This thread proves that people will follow their itching ears into half baked truth and find comfort in mystic succotash.

Hello Logarock, we have not spoken before but from your posts I can see you are very adamant about your views.

Your beliefs are your own and no one should attempt to shake those foundations, I understand the importance of faith and would just like to express my belief so that you do not misunderstand my position or others of a similar view.

I am by no means a scholar of the bible but I have an unshakable belief in God, I would go further to say that I believe in the loving God described by Jesus in contrast to the Wrathful, Jealous, Needy, Vengeful, Fearsome, Cruel, God of the Old Testament. You can keep that deity all to yourself if that is what you believe as I certainly don’t want to associate with him.

The God I love is kind, gentle, forgiving, guiding, supporting in fact all the qualities of a good father but with the capacity for unconditional love which is almost an impossible challenge for the most of humanity.

The concept of reincarnation is the purification of the soul by trial and error over multiple lifetimes. This process would be far more likely from a loving father, than to condemn those who did not meet his exacting standards only to be thrown into an eternal hell, Not just scrapped, but tortured for ever. How can you possibly reconcile that God with the God that Jesus describes.

I have studied the esoteric knowledge for some time now and it is clear, much of that which is written is also the teachings of the Christian Bible, this wouldn’t be surprising given that the Bible was largely compiled from Gnostic teachings. The esoteric knowledge I refer to was also largely taken from the Gnostic mystery schools as well as ancient hindu knowledge that Jesus himself would have been exposed to during his life time.

Could it be that the greatest conspiracy of all time was that Jesus was crucified because he taught that we are all Gods children, that he loves us all, and that in his infinite patience he created a process by which each of us become perfect through learning our many lessons over thousand of lives.

Think about the proposition the Christian belief presents us with, given an average life of maybe 70 yrs. Do you seriously believe that any man can achieve the spiritual perfection required to enter the house of God in what amounts to a blink of the eye.

The concept of reincarnation was central to the ancient teaching and still is in many religions. It is clear to me that someone in their wisdom, at some time in history went through the New Testament to remove any reference to our multiple existences, as this would reduce the influence of the church if it where to become common knowledge. Who would that affect mostly you may ask? Follow the money would be the answer.

To summarise: Those who achieve purity of soul through perfecting themselves over many lifetime will expand their consciousness to a level where they no longer will be required to go out from the lower kingdoms(some of the many mansions) to return to an earth life, because they have eventually built a home in the divine kingdoms along with his many brothers who have gone on before.
or
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out... (Revelation 3:12). (Authorized King James Version).

a reply to: LABTECH767

I totally understand that feeling. It's hard to cope with. Hence: Religion. Gives some people some relief. Not me, though. It just made things worse.

a reply to: Logarock

Just mix it all into a big batch of esoteric slop! And feed on the slop like.....wow there is a chunk of this and here is a chunk of that.....chucks of "stuff" floating around in a base stock of assorted extracts.

And thats what it is. Claiming that Christianity has a legacy of reincarnation is just about the sloppiest sort intellectual dishonesty. This thread proves that people will follow their itching ears into half baked truth and find comfort in mystic succotash.

Wow. Now I am reminded of why I refuse to even enter a conversation with you.

Do you even know what the word 'esoteric' means?
Christianity has a legacy of REINCARNATION whether YOU like it or not.

That is all.

(Sorry you're feeling upset. I'm sure it's very difficult for you to grasp, but: it's a recorded, proven, published FACT.
Cowboy up and deal with it.)

a reply to: kennyb72

Quite often this sort of dream doesn't appear as wild or as disconnected as ordinary dreams and I often wonder if they are accounts of meeting others on an Astral plane.

I think most of us have the jerking sensation as we fall asleep, it is quite often accompanied with a sensation of falling backwards and we try to stop ourselves, that's my experience anyway.

YEP! I think they ARE accounts of meetings on an astral (or whatever other) plane. I know for sure that I LOVE sleeping. It's one of my favorite things. Like a life I live that is totally separate from the one that is here when I'm awake.

a reply to: kennyb72

the capacity for unconditional love which is almost an impossible challenge for the most of humanity

Unconditional love is what a (healthy) parent feels for their child.
Sound familiar?

It's real. I love my children no matter WHAT they do or say. I don't threaten them with hell-fire and brimstone and torture if they don't do what I say.

a reply to: kennyb72

The concept of reincarnation was central to the ancient teaching and still is in many religions.

Yep.

It is clear to me that someone in their wisdom, at some time in history went through the New Testament to remove any reference to our multiple existences, as this would reduce the influence of the church if it where to become common knowledge. Who would that affect mostly you may ask? Follow the money would be the answer.

You must be sarcastically saying 'in their wisdom'.....Right?

Please tell me I'm right. Those people were not 'wise' - they were power-mongers.

Reincarnation as a maturing process over thousands of lifetimes is just as false a belief as Christianity’s being saved and going to heaven because neither are reasonable.In general reincarnation believes a “soul”(which is an oxymoron) can enter the Kingdom of the creator God(or whatever they believe it is) and made mature by repeating the process of making mistakes over and over and having none or little awareness of them or the root cause.

On the other hand Christianity believes they are being saved to enter the Kingdom of the creator God by believing in a religious doctrine which is only a circular logic self fulling prophecy made by the person who believes they are saved.Believing in something does not cause it to be true only knowing is in the progression of causation.

Re-incarnation ascension and Christian salvation faith are both a vicious cycles that are nothing more than the futility of false belief.The fact is it is impossible to “know” (experience) anything about any realm beyond the realm of death. Mankind’s immaturity is in believing they can know by believing which is the basis of all the falsities of religion.The only thing that can be known of the realm beyond the realm of death is you don’t and can’t know anything about it.There can be no “known” methodology to “achieve it”.That is the main flaw in mankind’s legions of religions of re-incarnation.

Just as with Christianity’s belief of heaven every person perception(observation) of re-incarnation is different.That is the sign that it is false as Christianity. It is impossible to study or perform a method to enter into the Kingdom of the creator God.Re-incarnation as believed by man is only a construct created in the mind.It can never enlighten it only darkens the mind more by making it “believe” they know something they can’t know.Vicious cycles of insanity abound with no escape from them while inside them.

The creator Gods process is completely different and reasonable.The physical realm is a type of womb matrix.Everything that lives in it is in the process of being conceived.NOTHING in it “caused” their own conception or is contributing to the causes or effects.The only thing it can and does is experience their conception.That is the limits of what can be known of the “new life”(born anew).Any effort to cause growth in the womb is futile and foolish vanity.It is the delusion of the religious carnal mind to believe it can.

That is why many that are foolish are wiser because they do not believe this foolishness of religion.They are called atheist.They know, they do not know.It is more wise to not believe a lie than to believe a lie even if you don’t know the truth.All of mankind is in this darkness of one kind or another(varying degrees).It is impossible to perceive(observe) what is outside the womb while being in it and observing.The Kingdom of the heavens comes without observation.

The mystery schools are not of enlightenment they are only the observance of the darkness within.Fortunately in the long run(the realm of life)none of that darkness matters however it does matter in the physical realm.If a man thinks he can see but is blind everything they think they can see is only delusion…and the vicious cycle continues.What is reported as Socrates paradox contains the most man can know and be enlightened to.

(paraphrased)
“I know one thing: that I know nothing”

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

YEP! I think they ARE accounts of meetings on an astral (or whatever other) plane. I know for sure that I LOVE sleeping. It's one of my favorite things. Like a life I live that is totally separate from the one that is here when I'm awake.

I love sleep as well BuzzyWigs (love that name as well by the way)

Doesn’t matter what mood I go to bed at night, I ALWAYS wake up feeling ‘all is right’ with the world. I am sure we go somewhere where we see the big picture and can put it all into perspective.

Unconditional love is what a (healthy) parent feels for their child.
Sound familiar?

I didn’t explain myself very clearly with that statement as It was meant on a much larger scale, I should have said unconditional love for everyone and everything in creation. That's a neat trick if you can pull it off.

You must be sarcastically saying 'in their wisdom'.....Right?
Please tell me I'm right. Those people were not 'wise' - they were power-mongers.

I was being sarcastic, you are correct, I have no respect for anybody who seizes, blackmails, or misleads people into giving away their power or treat people the way the early church did with their inquisitions and murder. That is not a sign of a loving God, just evil people.

a reply to: Rex282

enter the Kingdom of the creator God(or whatever they believe it is) and made mature by repeating the process of making mistakes over and over and having none or little awareness of them or the root cause.

Consciousness evolution takes place over tens of thousands of years,with perceptibly no real difference between lives, much the same as science believes the evolution of the physical organism takes place.

We are all unique, no two people have identical personalities, each person has experienced many different lives that make them who they are. None of us(most of us I should say) remember our past lives but there is a place of conscious awareness where all of our lives are stored and only accessed by some, not all, through common sense or intuition.

It accounts for our leanings towards particular skills, talents, predispositions. It accounts for Genius in a few people as they have worked up that particular area of knowledge over several lifetimes.

I won't argue with you in this post, because I have made my position clear over a number of posts in this thread, and also linked to the source of my beliefs, so I won't repeat myself.

The mystery schools are not of enlightenment they are only the observance of the darkness within.Fortunately in the long run(the realm of life)none of that darkness matters however it does matter in the physical realm.

The mystery schools teach the unity and love for all life and I personally don't see much darkness in that. Its teachings can and do observe that there is darkness in mens souls but it explains how through reaping and sowing, those negative traits are gradually eliminated through understanding the ultimate truth, that the evil we do to another we do to ourselves.

They are called atheist.They know, they do not know.

That would be an agnostic, an atheist thinks he knows but to his detriment is wrong, as he discovers when his physical body dies and yet he remains conscious. An expression commonly heard in the after life is "OH SH!T!"

The creator Gods process is completely different and reasonable.The physical realm is a type of womb matrix.Everything that lives in it is in the process of being conceived.NOTHING in it “caused” their own conception or is contributing to the causes or effects.The only thing it can and does is experience their conception.That is the limits of what can be known of the “new life”(born anew).Any effort to cause growth in the womb is futile and foolish vanity.It is the delusion of the religious carnal mind to believe it can.

ETA: I read your post a few times to try to understand more fully what you are saying

What you have stated in this quote,in my view is partially correct. What I have stated in a few of my posts is that I love the story of Christ but I would not describe myself as a religious person. I try to see the connection between the Bible and the esoteric knowledge and attempt to convey that, to those who care to listen.

Your womb matrix description as you correctly state is as much as our objective minds can perceive. For a great many people the subjective mind can be just as convincing, as seeing with your own two eyes. There is more than one way of knowing, and each persons life experiences can,and does for some, provide repeatable evidence of the existence of other realms of life not observable to the naked eye. When your intuition never fails you, you tend to rely on its conclusions.

As the evening draw's near and night's cold embrace enfold's the weary in it's silent arm's
As the autumn come's and the leave's do fall
And the first snow's of winter sprinkle the cold earth
So too must the blade fall unseen upon all
And as the long sleep call's I see now the far horizon ever more distant
The unknown never to be known
But maybe I am already gone and this merely a memory of what was
I have merely changed from the dying of the day to the birth of the night but must change again at the dawn
Male to female and female to male
From the Dieing to the Undieing
All thing's have there time
The wheel must turn again
In some distant land with some stranger's face or maybe here sooner than we may think
We may meet again
But now
I join the falling leave's and the fading day's
I sleep until the new dawn and maybe I will awaken again
But I perhaps shall dream a formless dream forgetting all that has been before
What lesson's have I learned
What purpose have I served
I know not
I am that I am
But What Am I
The name I am called is a strangers name and it always was
I know not my true name but doubt this mouth of tongue and teeth could say it
Or at least I remember it not
Maybe I shall
Perhaps it is called and I must answer
But a number remains
Seven hundred and sixty seven
The meaning I know not
But a book I remember that is no more as it was
Maybe I am that which must change
That the book can be whole again
It's page's turned and that I remember that is no more healed back into it's place
Maybe now it is time
I fell it drawing upon me ever more near
I have tried not to harm but harm I have done
I tried never to be wrong but wrong I have been
Still maybe even if I failed to learn I helped other's to do so
And then it was never pointless but had a purpose though not of my design
As all thing's end unfinished so too must this.

Maybe now I begin

a reply to: LABTECH767

Very nicely put, sometimes verse can say so much more than dialogue.

I wrote a song a few years ago.

Time slips away as the hourglass spills
Turn it around, Turn it around,
Time slips away as the sundial spins
Turn it around start it over again.

As I look to the sky on a cold dark night
a solitary cloud hides the moon from sight
I see a burning star through the leafless trees
if I can see the star can the star see me

Will my ghost burn bright will it shine out through the night
will my essence fill the universe will my spirit turn to light
I feel the chilly winds blowing over me
If I can feel the wind I'm still alive.

By the brook theres a tree that was battered by the storm
grasping on to life itself in any shape or form
and though it's limbs are torn and it's heart lies bare
many years from now, it will still be there.

Will it's ghost burn bright will it shine out through the night
will it's essence fill the universe will it's spirit turn to light
I feel the summers sun sink into my bones,
If I can feel the sun I'm still alive.

Overtime I would see an ordinary man
lost in his own solilique as he tries to understand
and a voice you can hear through some melody
but when my time is through, I will still be me

will my ghost burn bright will it shine out through the night
will my essence fill the universe will my spirit turn to light
and I can feel the rain flowing over me.
If I can feel the rain I'm still alive.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Logarock

Just mix it all into a big batch of esoteric slop! And feed on the slop like.....wow there is a chunk of this and here is a chunk of that.....chucks of "stuff" floating around in a base stock of assorted extracts.

And thats what it is. Claiming that Christianity has a legacy of reincarnation is just about the sloppiest sort intellectual dishonesty. This thread proves that people will follow their itching ears into half baked truth and find comfort in mystic succotash.

Wow. Now I am reminded of why I refuse to even enter a conversation with you.

Do you even know what the word 'esoteric' means?
Christianity has a legacy of REINCARNATION whether YOU like it or not.

That is all.

(Sorry you're feeling upset. I'm sure it's very difficult for you to grasp, but: it's a recorded, proven, published FACT.
Cowboy up and deal with it.)

Whether I like it or not. LOL. You don't want to talk to me? Thats real funny. Who wants to talk to a "whether of not" sort?

Now please show me where the "esoteric" evidence is for reincarnation is in the teachings of Christ. You cant do it. No one on this thread can do it. Thats why I call this vague tossing around of the idea slop. Its sloppy in a number of ways.

Sorry you don't like my style but that all that it is, you don't like the style. Use of the English language. You cant really produce an argument that can stand up to someone who knows the subject.

a reply to: Logarock

Now please show me where the "esoteric" evidence is for reincarnation is in the teachings of Christ. You cant do it. No one on this thread can do it.Now please show me where the "esoteric" evidence is for reincarnation is in the teachings of Christ. You cant do it. No one on this thread can do it.

If you can post in a calmer manner, you are welcome to try answer my previous post.

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
Matthew 11:7–14

“I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.” I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.’”


Jesus identified John the Baptist as Elijah, John the Baptist rejected that identification. Christians have to reconcile these two teachings, lol good luck.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

He wasn't talking about Elijah the OT prophet. Thats why He said "born of woman" to differentiate. Not that the first wasn't born of a woman but the first had never died and was seen on the Mt of Transfiguration. Its a matter of type with John the Baptist.


If you read the entire context the three disciples that saw Elijah and Moses on the mount, and James and John were both followers of John the Baptist at one time, didn't recognize Elijah as John, thus the question. Peter didn't recognize the man as John the Baptist and he to knew what John looked like as well. In addition there is every reason to believe that they had to be told who these men were and again none of them recognized Elijah as John.

The real Elijah is going to come before the 2nd coming of Christ being as he was seen on the Mt in a state of transfiguration which is a temporary condition, suspension of death. John couldn't have been in this state because he had already died. Elijah is not dead but in transfiguration. Jesus transfigured momentarily as part of "fulfilling all thing" but then went on to His death and resurrection.

Another problem with John the Baptist being the original Elijah reborn is that He really doesn't come close to fitting the profile of Elijah. The Elijah that comes before the second coming of Christ does however fit the original profile.