The forgotten legacy of reincarnation in early christianity

It has been answered

You have not, you are a time waster.

As Nihilist Santa is unwilling to answer, I'l do it for you.


originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: NihilistSanta


What does this mean:
"Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist"
Jesus QUALIFIES that John was incarnated through Elizabeth

What does this mean:
"And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.’”
jesus QUALIFIES Elijah is John the Baptist after asking his disciples to believe it.

What does this mean:
"But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognise him ….. 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist."
Jesus Qualifies that John the Baptist had already come in His lifetime as per the prophecy, he was not recognized then Jesus named John the Baptist as being Elijah.

Point 1 = Incarnation through the womb of Elizabeth was John the Baptist who was ALSO Elijah.
Point 2 = Jesus asks people to believe that Elijah is John incarnated
Point 3 = Jesus said Elijah had been as per prophecy and he was John the Baptist.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Did you even read my previous post? They clearly answered your premise however you seem unswayed with the context and interpretation of the verses. Instead you have forced reincarnation on verses that hold no such thing because the language used is dual meaning, directly tied to prophetic events of the current time and future events, while referencing past prophecy. It is almost as if the passages are speaking directly to people such as your self. Oh well let him who has eyes to see and ears to .....and so on.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

I don't give a crap what " theosophist Geddes MacGregor" has to say about it. I cited it right from the horses mouth, as translated by Jerome.

Origen taught reincarnation. Get over it! If you don't like what Origen said, take it up with Origen.

Fact: Reincarnation was a popular and common belief among Christians all the way up to 6th century BCE, when it was banned by Emperor Justinian.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

So what does in the spirit and power of Elijah mean then? Elijah never died so how would he be reincarnated? So John was Elijah in the flesh? Yet Elijah was seen on the mount with Jesus during the transfiguration. Again your idea when placed within the context of the verses is illogical. Instead you are using out of context arguments to support your entire revision.

a reply to: windword

Lets get to the meat of the idea then. If we are reincarnated to "learn lessons" pay off karmic debt or what have you what then is the point of a messiah? What then of Jesus claims? What of coming judgement which Jesus spoke of? Other belief systems that hold to reincarnation have a type of cosmic balance sheet that is impersonal that is in charge of doling out karmic rewards. Why did Jesus rise from the dead after 3 days if he could just reincarnate. What purpose would willingly and knowingly dying on a cross mean if reincarnation were true. The entire idea falls flat within the context of Christianity and thus is has been known to be heretical and discarded. Origen himself supposedly justifies any reasoning about reincarnation based solely on the fact that people like Pythagoras and other Greeks and such held those ideas which is truly irrelevant since we are discussing Jesus and Christianity. The other schools of thought are completely incompatible with Christian ideas.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

Did you even read my previous post? They clearly answered your premise

No it didn't. It offered quite the show of mental gymnastics and word twisting for the apologetic against he idea that we are "Born again" after all!

Why does the freedom of the soul to reincarnate, if one so chooses threaten your world view so?

Jesus promised that the "Born Again" are as free as the wind to go where they wish? Why would you think that we are so limited and selfish that we would choose to sit around paradise sipping on Pina Coladas while the world falls apart, after Jesus went through all that trouble and all? Why wouldn't I want to come back, again and again, until it's all accomplished?

Why does that offend you?

a reply to: windword

You cannot love the world and love God. Jesus said to be in the world but not of it. Clearly a rejection of the state of things on earth so why would he encourage souls to come back to that same state while simultaneously telling them that their kingdom is in Heaven which is experienced after death and judgement.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: zazzafrazz

Did you even read my previous post? They clearly answered your premise however you seem unswayed with the context and interpretation of the verses. Instead you have forced reincarnation on verses that hold no such thing because the language used is dual meaning, directly tied to prophetic events of the current time and future events, while referencing past prophecy. It is almost as if the passages are speaking directly to people such as your self. Oh well let him who has eyes to see and ears to .....and so on.

You did not answer the questions.You can deflect all you like, I have no emotional or spiritual investment in this, you have.

Again you have taken it out of its context the previous post of mine places it back in context. You are hung up on the "womb of woman" part clearly so I am unsure of the point you are trying to make if you refuse to see the actual verses in context in reference to Elijah.

I took nothing out of context, I have quoted the whole verse, read and reviewed it. This is a incorrect statement to make .
Again I don't think you ever read Matthew.
read this post, Nothing is out of context by me.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

So what does in the spirit and power of Elijah mean then? E

You are quoting Luke who was quoting an angel. I was quoting Matthew who was quoting Jesus.
So 'the spirit' means it was ok to act as a medium of?
A possesion>?

Malachi did not say that Elijah will appear by proxy, through medium, as someone accessing his powers etc but that Elijah himself will return.

Jesus said JthB was Elijah.
He did not say it was ELijah's spirit, He did not say JtheB was possessed by ELijah, He did not say that John the Baptist acted like Elijah, but that he WAS Elijah.
Should I take it your stance as disagreeing with Jesus?
Should I take it your stance is that Elijah's spirit possessed John the Baptist?

a reply to: NihilistSanta

Did you even read my previous post? They clearly answered your premise

You have a very limited view of the soul.

Zachariah 3
Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan[a] standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”

3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.”

Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.”

5 Then I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the Lord stood by.

We get new clothes. Elijah got "New Clothes". I can't imagine poor ole Elijah up there, hanging out with the divine in Heave, wearing his filthy old rags left over from when he was preaching on the banks of the river. But I can imagine him willing to put rags back on for the commission of the Great Work.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: NihilistSanta

So what does in the spirit and power of Elijah mean then? Elijah never died so how would he be reincarnated? So John was Elijah in the flesh? Yet Elijah was seen on the mount with Jesus during the transfiguration. Again your idea when placed within the context of the verses is illogical. Instead you are using out of context arguments to support your entire revision.

So we can only assume Moses and Elijah were wearing name tags on the mount?

They wouldn't have known who the two figures were first off...

And the very concept of a man NOT dying is nothing more then make believe... Elijah died just like every other man in the history of our species... Including Jesus even though he came back

This is just like the idea that our entire species came from two people...

its nonsense...

a reply to: NihilistSanta

You cannot love the world and love God.

That's why Christians are so gleefully awaiting and praying for its destruction.

As for me, I'll be caring for the souls of this world that I love. If you can't handle that, too bad.

a reply to: kennyb72

Perfectly fine and long or not that post is very intriguing, I sense a very great mind behind it and if you truly comprehend that a level of complexity then quantum physic's would be an interesting hobby at least to add to it as you would see many parallel structure's in the thought model behind a lot of the theoretical construction's used in it.

For me there is a slight problem as I think the following about the big bang.

The universe will continue to expand and long after the light of the star's has gone out this accellerating explansion will still be going on, it will stop when the stars enter an area of spaghettification - that is an area just above the event horizon of a black hole - this event horizon though is on the inside of a black hole not the outside.

Imagine if you will matter, gravity is present were there is matter or mass to be more precise but gravity is the weakest known force with the possible exception of the equally weak force of time, electro static attraction for example is millions of time's stronger than gravity and some physicists have come to the conclusion that therefore gravity may be leaching or soaking into our universe from some other place and this of course mean's time may be from another universe or membrane or dimension on the other side of our universe from gravity, I am oversimplifying the principle's but bear with me.

So a gravity well where there is a clump of matter gravity is more intense so maybe what matter is made of which is essentially the same material as what we percieve as space is actually simply scrunched up space in a smaller three dimensional volume meaning the string and membrane theory oversimplify the structure here, gravity is constant accross the spacial field everywhere but in an area where that spacial field occupy's smaller three dimensional volume therefore gravitational saturation is more condensed also, so far so simple, scrunch up a bit of space into matter by tightly packing it into a small three dimensional volume and you have more gravity there too.

Now what if the mass or scrunched up space is all around you, ok maybe you are crushed by the electrostatic attraction of all that mass into nearly nothing but there must be a point at which the gravity is all around pulling outward on that point.

So what happens when a black hole form's, the object become's so dense and so heavy in a precipitously short space of time that may be too short for the membrane that matter and space is made of to cope and it literally almost and in some cases maybe actually does tear a hole in our universe to where ever gravity come's from, this makes the gravity of a true black hole equal to the entire mass of the rest of the universe and as Gravity and time are apparent opposite's time stop's there and that is regardless of what relative volume it exists in, so what about that tiny point inside where the gravity pulled outward as the black hole formed.

At a point smaller than is concievable but also moving around as the collapsing star is spinning and the exact center point is a quantum uncertainty, this means that in this space this may happen several time's at slightly from our perspective looking that tiny point but from that point's perspective vastly distant from it time's, it also mean's that this occurance may not be simetrical and also it may occur in several parallel reality's as well.

So what happen's, well that gravity is not just pulling it is being lensed on a smaller and smaller point with greater and greater intensity until something give's and it is an inversion of the time space contiuum at that point, this inversion or white hole creates a vast within a tiny relative space it creates a vast explostion of raw time and energy which then form's a new time space continuum, this is why the stars are accellerating away not decellerating under the force of gravity because the gravity of the universe is not the only gravity acting on it but the gravity of the surrounding black hole is also working on it, it also does away with the need for dark matter though that may exist as well as it elegantly explain's why the universe is an asymetric oval with a off centre displacment of galaxy and star formation and not perfectly distributed.

As this may have occured several time's within the same black hole our white hole spewed reality may merge with other's over time but eventually as the black hole itself shrink's our universe will reach the event horizon and cease to exist until this event is gone like ripples on a pond fading away, the internal and external time space continuum therefore do not merge as they can not merge, when the black hole succumb's to evaporation the internal time space continuum has already succumbed to both ambient entropy and spaghettification.

As the black hole undergoes quantum evaporation and is gone long before it's parent unviverse succumbs to the same fate inside it's parent black hole's internal event horizon this mean's that time relative to the the two universes traverses at a differential rate, the universe outside our parent black hole's has time at a vastly slower relative rate to us and if we could see it that means we would only see blackness but it is there nevertheless and if they could see our universe time would make all occurances from the birth to death of galaxy's so fast they probably could not comprehend it.

So for me the universe as seen from superspace is like a series of raindrop's on a pond surface, each splash and ripple is a big bang and a universe to draw a loose analogy but then there is the greater reality around that which mean's that this is only the lowest dimension of possible spiritual development.

Of course I may be wrong but I feel this rather than know it.

Of course this mean's a second can contain a virtual eternity as black holes from within each of these universes and some of them may be true black holes that may then give rise to new universes each with a exponentially faster relative perception of time relative to the one before.


We have seen how consciousness itself affect's time, gravity and reality but not why, it is a weak force and can not be empirically observed but there are story's of ascended master's practicing levitation and twisting time around themselve's, passing through solid matter etc, these most common to the himalayan monk's who have tried to free themselves from this state of being.

Is it not also possible that this could integrate into your belief with no conflict and is the soul potentially something different again and a force unto itself from another universe in true superspace outside the time space continuum outside or above this rippled pond we see and percieve but a small part of and perhap's it is nearer to the point of the observer who is looking at the pond and sometime's look's a little too closely perhaps creating the ripple that is us that then eventually tries to look back.

a reply to: LABTECH767

spaghettification

This makes me chuckle. Are you referring to Pastafarianism? The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

THANK YOU COUNCIL OF NICEA!

a reply to: LABTECH767

Hey, seriously though - you might enjoy
The Physics of Consciousness
and
Th e Elegant Universe
and
Chris Carter's books
?

See link here for more resources.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
THANK YOU COUNCIL OF NICEA!

Reincarnation wasn't on the agenda at Nicea

I knew that thread would come in handy

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

No but I have heard of it, make's me chuckly too but then I am incredibly imature for a guy my age, anyway spaghetification is as best I can describe it what happens to the spacial field as it approaches the event horizon of a true quantum singularity, the field and any matter or energy in the field are pulled tought and imagine it like matter and energy are ripples on a bed sheet but then someone pull's it tought, they are destroyed utterly just at the point space time hit's the event horizon and it is also at this point time stop's but the area just above it is were it undergoes this stretching to oblivion nicknames spaghetification.

a reply to: Akragon

AH symetry...

a reply to: LABTECH767

Hi LABTECH767

I read through your post several times and I understand your meaning and also how you could arrive at your understanding given the information presented to us by Cosmologists, Astrophysicists, Quantum Physicists etc.

I can also see how confusion is created by the compartmentalisation of our various fields of science.

Pythagoras presented a unified theory thousands of years ago and if you sense a great mind behind what I am humbly trying to relate, it would be Pythagroras’s mind. His teaching, if it had been pursued by science, would have reduced all areas of inquiry down to just Physics.

Quantum physics and the Basic Laws of Physics are only seperated by a lack of unifying knowledge.

I did make a post on another thread, which explains, from my perspective the problems facing scientists and highlights an erroneous belief by science, even though our physics work predictably and integrate generally in accord with each other, they will ultimately lead us to a dead end.

Although considered settled, science cannot provide any guarantees that its dogma is actually correct. It simply describes a hypothesis or theory that makes sense based on empirical evidence using the data and tools of investigation at their disposal,even though they have incomplete knowledge available for their research. In a practical sense,this gives science a foundation to work with,however, the lack of a complete understanding will present an insurmountable barrier, the deeper they attempt to explore.

An example of this would be the enormously expensive study of the Higgs field, in an attempt to discover the field that makes matter, what we perceive it to be. Pythagoras’s explanation is ‘so simply’ a child could grasp it.

The most difficult part for most of us, is to conceptualise in four dimensions. We won’t reference time as a dimension in this context because time does not exist outside of human perception or physical experience.

The best metaphor I could use would be the skins of an onion, each layer representing a dimension of reality. Although we have to understand, that these layers are not stacked on top of each other in a physical sense, but interpenetrating from the highest dimensions down to the outer physical skin.

Pythagoras explains that these layers are forty nine in total, although I suspect a continuous spectrum in reality, but as logical separation must occur, as ‘matter’ becomes more of one type than the other,his numerical separation is conveniant.

Starting from the source(beyond time and space), Monads are separated out from un-manifested ‘primal matter’ through the activation of ‘primal energy’, the Greeks called this energy Dynamis.

The Monad could be described as the smallest, indivisible, indestructible, eternally present, particle of matter in existence. It IS ‘primal energy’ encased in a shell of ‘primal matter’. To help you understand, I could say that the Monad crossed the event horizon between non existence into existence at the moment of separation or manifestation. To clarify, the Monad is born, but is still, at that point, forty nine dimensions away from our physical reality.

Now I am obviously referring to a single Monad for simplicities sake, which is useful, as it describes exactly what you and I actually are (a single point of consciousness). All life is, at it’s core,that single point of encapsulated primal energy(Dynamis), and everything in existence, comprises of a sea of Monads occupying all space in the cosmos. hence the ‘Conscious Universe’.

Monads are matter (although so small, it is hard for us to use that term) and all matter is in constant motion, travelling inwards and outwards through the forty nine dimensions in a process call involvation and evolvation. To keep the visualisation simple, I will continue the explanation with the single Monad.

As the Monad descends(counter intuitive I know!), The Monad moves away from the source. Every layer it passes through, it attracts Monads from the next dimension out, so each of those Monad at dimension two attracts two Monads and that bundle of Monads each then collects three Monads from dimension three then each of those Monads collect four Monads from dimension four and so on.

Eventually the Monad arrives at dimension forty nine( our objective physical dimension) containing Monads from every preceding dimension. Groups of Monads collect into aggregations and arrange themselves with certain component parts. This is what science observes as the atom. There is still much to explain at this point, because as we know, there are different kinds of atoms comprising of protons neutrons, neutrino’s, quarks and other exotic particles, all with various characteristics of attractions and repulsions, rotations and spin.

When the Monad reaches dimension forty two, it enters into what Pythagoras terms the ‘Solar Systemic Dimensions’. It is in these outer seven dimensions that Monads start to take on various characteristics that create the many aggregates that form the elements that are recognisable by science.

It’s interesting that in Douglas Adams Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy 42 was the meaning of ‘Life the universe and everything’.
I wonder what he had been reading? perhaps the same literature as Tolkien, Lewis Carrol and many other 19th century writers where privy to as well.

Sorry I digress, It gets a little difficult to comprehend, but I will try to explain how the characteristics of Monads can produce such a vast array of aggregation.

Going back to the source, we come to understand that everything is conscious or conscious potential, matter in motion.

1.Matter(Monads)
2.Motion
3.Consciousness or potential.

You could call this a ‘Holy Trinity’ although there are other reasons to reference ‘three’ as in the triad molecule in which our Monad resides as a possible origin of this concept.

If we permutate three into lesser or greater proportions of matter, motion and consciousness, we arrive at seven different states that Monad can manifest. Although the Monad is encased in other Monads, there is always one, the central Monad that benefits from the unity of this aggregation. It is this Monad that becomes the dominating consciousness, All other Monads in the aggregate are moving constantly through involvation, the only constant Monad is the one moving outwards or descending into the physical dimension.

It is not until it arrives at dimension ‘forty two’ that a distinct sense of conscious awareness occurs and the Monad then enters into the state of involution. The Monad performs many functions during the early stages of involution. In these higher planes they compose much of what is described as elemental matter which also becomes composite parts of emotional and mental envelopes of other beings more advanced than itself. These Monads are also the source for all elemental matter that moves on through the dimensions to ultimately become manifest in the physical plane. From dimension 'forty two' down to 'forty nine' the Monad acquires passive consciousness, meaning it is extraordinarily reactive but incapable of self activation.

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a reply to: LABTECH767

As explained earlier there are seven distinct types of Monad. Monads take on spin from the moment they enter existence. When they travel through the much denser planes from world ‘forty two’ onwards they start to spiral as well as spin. Aggregations start to manifest from the ‘forty second’ dimension right through to the ‘forty ninth’ and these then manifest in our physical world as protons, neutrons and electrons. It is at this stage that the physics becomes objectifiable.

It is always the central (most advanced)Monad that is supported by other Monads, existing in all the dimensions of reality. It is when the Monad manifests into the physical world as an aggregate, such as a mineral, that it can be said to have entered into evolution. The entire planet is an aggregate of aggregates of aggregates and the concept of a hierarchy is best understood, where a single Monad with it’s expanded consciousness is the controlling consciousness of billions of other Monads.

Evolutionary Monads pass through the mineral and vegetable kingdoms with faint subjective consciousness, it just knows that ‘it is’ without any senses to experience life. The Monad acquires objective consciousness after the transmigration into the animal kingdom and objective self consciousness when It becomes human. Our next transmigration expands to objective group consciousness as an essential being.

To understand this journey in a very simple visualisation, you could imagine an arch with the front foot of the arch sitting on primordial matter. The Monads travels up the front leg as it descends( non intuitively) to the apex of the arch, (the furthest distance it can travel) before heading down again. At the absolute apex of the arch is our physical world, so dense in multidimensional Monads that it is slowed down into what science defines as matter - Welcome to our physical world of matter! (Welcome to the Higgs field)

Our ascent(non intuitively) down the other side is achieved through our ever expanding conscious awareness as we return to the source.

Having got that explanation out of the way, I can now address some of your own thoughts on the matter (pun not intended).

We have all become fixated on the Einsteinium concept of gravity. Space/time continuum and gravity wells, ad nauseum.

Now don’t blame Pythagoras for the following statements, because it is my own attempt to understand gravity through the lens of what I described to you in my previous paragraphs.

I believe gravity is no more or less, electro-magnetism, a term used widely but one that I believe is misunderstood.

Hylozoics describes another ‘seven divisions’ and that is the seven states of matter.

7.Solid
6.Liquid
5.Gas
4.Etheric
3.Super Etheric
2.Sub atomic
1.Atomic

Science is currently only comfortable with the first three.
(4) is dark matter.
(3,2,1) is dark energy.

Laurency mentions that the physical atom witnessed by science is actually number (4) Etheric on this list and (1) atomic refers to a state of matter much finer than can currently be measured.

As I mentioned previously, our physical atom is actually composed of millions of Monads( string theory screams out at me here) as does entanglement, given that all Monads are connected through multiple dimensions.

It is simple(although perhaps inaccurate) to explain that any aggregate large or small will exert an electro magnetic attraction given that all matter adopts a polarity at a quantum level. Attraction appears to inversely lose it’s power over distance the same as we witness with what we call gravity. I can certainly imagine this on the scale of a solar system, where the mass of the Sun can exert an electro-magnetic attraction to the planets maintained within the vacuum of space and balanced through centrifugal forces.

The apparent weakness of “gravity”/electro-magnetism could be explained by the division of the mass of a star divided into the forty nine dimensions that,this force exerts itself.

According to Hylozoics, there are also many more planets in our solar system that cannot be observed because they have not manifested into our physical dimension, however their gravitational affects provide and invisible influence causing all manner of mathematical problems where standard measuring norms are a dogma.

This crude explanation could actually dovetail into the ‘Electric Universe Theory’ although at this point, I haven’t given that a great deal of thought.

Now given the adage, ’as above so below’, “again my take on it” Black holes in my opinion are not collapsed stars, We could in fact view them as a super massive star in the centre of a galaxy, but one that is not materialised on the physical plane. It is not that light cannot escape because of unimaginable gravity, but because its light frequency is not manifest on this dimensional plane. however Its electro-magnetic attraction and radiation is the phenomena that we witness.

It all lends itself, again to the concept of hierarchies. Just as our own Sun feeds our planets with life giving energies so does this central Sun feed all the Stars with it’s various energies. The perfect energy distribution network one could say! (Tesla anyone!)

It also gives credence to Astrology and the concept that subtle energies are moving through our solar system continually and that those influences can and do affect our etheric bodies at the moment of conception or birth in possibly predictable ways.

Hylozoics explains how the intensity of energies received by the physical realms are stepped down by an enormous amount, compared to the higher dimensions. Interestingly Charles Leadbetter’s descriptions of the various planes of existence describes how the light of one dimensional plane is is derived from the next higher plane. Higher beings are always described as luminous entities simply for the reason that their bodies are composed of much higher dimensional matter.

It is also described that the universal energies which enter our etheric bodies and subsequently into our physical bodies are stepped down through the dimensions. Amongst the many tasks undertaken by higher beings is the manipulation of energies to feed us the life forces suitable to sustain us.

You could call them cosmic gardeners I would suggest, and that we are the crop they attend to.

Hmm, I wonder if spontaneous human combustion could be explained by this? I am quite certain that kundalini and Qi would could be explained as a capacitance of this energy.

I read and completely understand your take on gravity and I liked many of your descriptions such as the lens upon lens effect reaching such intensity as to rip a hole etc. Personally I feel it is an over complication, albeit a rather clever interpretation. I will however reference your ripple in the pond metaphor because it will work for me by changing it’s criteria just a little.

Your assumption understandably is, that the cosmos is infinite. The Hylozoic explanation is that the cosmos is a bubble in infinite space (one of possibly an infinite numbers of cosmoses)which suggests that the bubble itself is actually finite.

Once our finite cosmos has worked itself out, it will dissolve whence it came. Imagine that the ripple in your metaphor is not through X.Y.Z space but though the forty nine dimensions of our reality.

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