The Church: What's In A Name?

a reply to: Ignatian
The word "equivocation" means using a word in two different senses, and concealing the fact that two different senses are being used, in order to give a misleading impression.
That is what you are doing with the word "church". You are trying to conceal the fact that when early church writers talked about "the church" and "the catholic church", they did not specifically mean the human organisation which split off from the Christians of northern Europe in the mid-sixteenth century and now tries to monopolise, illicitly, the words "church" and "catholic".
It is also what I predicted you would do;

And again we get the line of argument which carefully confuses the two meanings. Any statement which can be applied to the "catholic" church, in the more general sense of the word, is hi-jacked by propagandists and claimed as the exclusive property of the "Catholic" community in the second sense of the word.

I belong to Christ. That is the only legitimate definition of the church, and therefore I am part of the church, along with my fellow-believers who are Methodists, Baptists, and Presbyterians.
Neither you nor anyone else has any right to deny my membership of the church until you can prove that I do not belong to Christ.
And I accept the Nicene Creed, which is enough to make me a member of the church catholic.

James agrees with Paul, John, and the writer of Hebrews. They all teach the same thing.
That is, "Both Faith and obedience are expected, but Faith comes FIRST in order of time."
(James says the function of works is to show Faith. In other words, the Faith came first.)

a reply to: Ignatian

The foundation... then the body... then comes the head.. Building, in my understanding, is from the ground up..

If you have any doubt as to what is the reflection of Christ on this earth, Christ HIMSELF said it will be a reflection of HIM, not a reflection of the world.

In HIM, there was no pomp or circumstance, nor any jewels or gold... just plain, coming to those who are lost and needing saved.. not those who find themselves already righteous and in no need of a King.

nvm

DP

Ignatius wrote what he wrote. He called it The Catholic Church in 107AD. We were ALL in The Catholic Church until the deformation, I mean reformtion.

"Peter, upon this rock, I will build my church" (Peter=Catholic Church)

"What you bind on Earth will be bound in heaven" (You=Peter=Catholic Church)

Obviously, hard words to hear for a non-Catholic. The only way out is to equivocate.

Definition: Verb, To use ambiguous or unclear expressions usually to avoid commitment, or in order to mislead; prevaricate or hedge. You equivocate even in your definition of equivocate.

I've read a lot of your stuff. You are brilliant at equivocation. The Great Equivocator!

a reply to: Ignatian
Have you read this one?

1 Corinthians; The calling and the teachers

A human organization that split from Christians of northern Europe in mid 16th century??? I would giggle if I thought you didn't seriously believe that. So, just curious, where does St.Peter, Cephas, The Rock upon which Jesus built his church, fit into your scenario, considering He said His church would always exist "until the end of the age"? I know what your answer is, but always get a kick out of hearing the equivocation anyway.

Someone needs to tell the 1.1 billion Catholics, 1/5 the earth's population(Pew Research), their faith tradition is a mere splinter group, the REAL Catholic Church is up in northern Europe somewhere.

I'll stick with the 1.1 billion, lead by our Holy Father, The Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Christ, who sits in the chair of Saint Peter, Our first Pope, the one entrusted with Keys to the gates of heaven. The real authority. The Church that Jesus founded and promised would never fall, and hasn't, for 2000 years.

Praise The Lord!

a reply to: DISRAELI

Answered elsewhere;
1 Corinthians;Defining the church
The keys of the kingdom

OpiniatedB, I had a similar experience as yours, roughly 2 years ago, but mine wasn't in a dream. I simply climbed a tree one day, to get a better look. I was miserable, rock bottom. Jesus stopped what he was doing, the "noise" of the world stopped for a moment, and He looked right at me. "Ignatian, you are my beloved son with whom I am well pleased".

I fell to the ground and Saul became Paul. But not in a blink, I'm still traveling my path. I had lived my life as a card carrying, expert atheist for most my life. I knew all the tricks, all the arguments against any organized whack religion. If there was a commandment, I broke it, and broke it with a bang. My conversion has made me alive. Dying, He destroyed our death, Rising, He restored our life.

I studied long and hard, read everything I could get my hands on. Visited different churches, different denominations. If I do something, I do it right, I'm not following some whacked, fringe cult. I wanted Truth with a capital T. That investigation lead me right into The Catholic Church. When and if your conscience leads you there also, there will be no looking back, it will be too late. Follow your conscience. I followed mine, based first on reason, things had to be reasonable, make sense. Of course, then came the faith. Faith is a gift from God. we did nothing to deserve it. Faith is external, it comes from God, "works" are internal, they depend on you making a move, Being Christ on earth, in the here and now. Faith, without works, is dead.

May God continue to bless your journey. Christ gave us peace, let's enjoy it.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

You're equivocating lol

That big ol long dissertation to try and refute what even freshman theology students learn: Keys are a symbol of authority.

Protestants were expert at removing scripture from canon, if it didn't jive with their secular worldview. But even they didn't try messing with the New Testament. It's equally troubling when folks try and add to scripture what isn't there, or read between the lines, in many cases, defying reason, ie, when they equivocate.

Come home. Come home to Jesus Christ's church, The Catholic Church. We need you. Dark days are ahead. We need to stand as one. And it's what Jesus wants.

a reply to: DISRAELI

a reply to: Ignatian

No. What HE promises is to separate the wheat from the chaff. HE promises a great sifting. HE promises to make high things low, and low things high.

If the savior you see is in the catholic church more power to you. The Savior I see is without spot or blemish - and his people walk in HIS light and not the light of this world.

I see the catholic church in its current state as a wife (bride of Christ) who threw off her clothing (the Glory of Jesus) and ran naked in the streets. You are free to differ with this, but then you would have to account for all the gold she went whoring after.

I have simply promised to stay faithful to HIM.

a reply to: Ignatian
"Standing as one" is something we can do now.
I refuse to wear one of your "approved by the Pope" badges, but if we are prepared to agree that Christ Jesus is the one and only foundation of the church, we can stand together against those who oppose Christ.
Shall we try it, eh?

Regarding your flawed dissertation on Keys, I was a little surprised to not see the reference to Isaiah 22: 21-22. I didn't read your whole thread though, maybe it crops up later. It helps to clarify exactly what Jesus meant when he spoke to Peter. He gave him authority over His Kingdom. The new Jerusalem, the Church.

a reply to: DISRAELI

a reply to: Ignatian

You really must have to ignore a whole lot of HIS book to get there!

Anyway... I will leave you to it. I wish you well. As it is written, HIS sheep will hear HIS voice. If you are HIS sheep, you will.

Well, a true conversion to Jesus Christ has 3 parts.

1. Fall in love with Jesus.
2. Fall in love with His Church
3. Fall in love with His message.

It sounds like you have the first one down, the rest will come, God willing. Without The Church that Jesus founded, you will have your feet planted firmly in mid air.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

What have I ignored? My first response to you was to believe ALL of scripture. However, It certainly sounds to me like maybe it's you ignoring scripture.

You're not real familiar with The Catholic Church, obviously. You may want to brush up on some very basic tenets, before you form a conclusion and blaspheme the Church that Jesus founded.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

a reply to: Ignatian

It is usually the favored position of a submissive bride to her bridegroom though.

You can tell a tree by it's fruit. This one is starting to taste yucky.

I pray you find a true humility. You've mentioned people need to lose their ego. Look in the mirror, when you say that. I sense a deep anger in you. Ask Jesus to draw closer to you. That's an easily answered prayer. Another prayer would be to ask Jesus to show you how much He loves you. He will.

Grace and Peace to you.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

a reply to: Ignatian

I wasn't the one who drew the picture, all I did was to explain it to you, why it might be a better one than running the streets.

I do apologize however if you find such speech distasteful. I did not mean to offend delicate sensibilities.

But, I get new lessons daily in humility. New lessons every single day... if anyone thinks this is easy.. they haven't even come close to understanding.

But I made one promise... 1... that if HE revealed HIMSELF to me then I would be utterly faithful. I AM trying that. It beats selling out.. really it does. No matter what the world may think of me.

It isn't easy, in fact, for me i found it only got harder. My faith has been tested in the most insidious ways. And I know that originates from the evil one, the father of lies. I invoke His Holy Name at those times. The evil one is powerless when that happens, and it stops dead in its' tracks.

Who cares what "the world" thinks? We are not OF the world, we walk with Christ. Christ is within us, we have been crucified with Him. All our sufferings, with plenty more to come, can be offered up to Him. Christ's suffering for us, was lacking, only because He knows we will suffer too. So, He leaves room for us. Bring on suffering!! lol.

a reply to: OpinionatedB