Discussion: Possibly of an advanced CULTURE or proto-Civilization at the end of the PREVIOUS ice age

Brilliant thread Hans, thanks for posting this topic.

As Punkinworks illustrated, we already know (with current understanding, which may change) pretty much what was going on at that time, at least in very generic terms. And as Slayer pointed out, there is certainly huge scope for discoveries in the Gulf of Arabia.....at least as soon as we perfect underwater archeological capabilities!

For me though, i am trying to approach it from the point you suggested.....what are we missing / where should we be looking?

River valleys certainly could be crucial but going back so far presents problems with this approach. For example, simply look to Egypt. Over a relatively short time frame (6'000 years) the Nile has changed course potentially dozens of times meaning that some documented ancient cities are still lost. If we extrapolate that back 130'000 years, then any river valley civilization could in point of fact be hundreds of miles away from current river valley locations. This would present something of a problem for anyone looking for signs of civilization.

Location and geography is another serious obstacle. Most Inca and Mayan ruins are well and truly buried under jungle scrub and that is only from 1500 - 600 years ago. Go back 130'000 years and it is highly doubtful that even Ground Penetrating Radar scanning would show anything up.

What would have been key survival ingredients back then? Well certainly access to fresh water and plentiful food supplies and natural resources. This immediately brings to mind (to me ) volcanic areas, (ie Rift Valley but also others all over Europe, Asia, South America, etc). Pompeii, Santorini and even Montserrat in recent times have shown what large sudden eruptions do to people in the locality - finding a 130'000 year old Pompeii (even if one existed) would be almost impossible as it would be so deep under volcanic deposits we would simply have no idea it was even there to look for.

For me, the best place to look for evidence would be the steppelands of Eurasia as they are so vast and there are exciting discoveries being made, although nowhere near on the timescales suggested for the premise of this thread. Until technology advances sufficiently though, i sadly have no idea how we could even know where to look, never mind actually finding anything.

originally posted by: Hic sunt dracones
Stone tools can't be dated , and I'm sure all the advanced civilisations have been long drowned by the oceans.

No, but the contexts within which those stone tools are found can be dated, and are dated.

a reply to: Hanslune

Most of the ocean floor is unexplored. I reckon that if a lost civilization exists, with the remains still around for us to find, then it is located off shore. Sea levels were much lower back then. People have always lived near water sources. So it reasons that if there is a lost civilization that existed during or before the last ice age, then it is currently submerged under water.

Written language as I mentioned in my earlier posting comes in different forms than just some carved rock or piece of wood.

Quipus (or khipus), sometimes called talking knots, were recording devices historically used in the region of Andean South America. A quipu usually consisted of colored, spun, and plied thread or strings from llama or alpaca hair. It could also be made of cotton cords. For the Inca, the system aided in collecting data and keeping records, ranging from monitoring tax obligations, properly collecting census records, calendrical information, and military organization.[1] The cords contained numeric and other values encoded by knots in a base ten positional system. A quipu could have only a few or up to 2,000 cords.[2] The configuration of the quipus have also been "compared to string mops."[3] Archaeological evidence has also shown a use of finely carved wood as a supplemental, and perhaps more sturdy, base on which the color-coordinated cords would be attached.[4]

en.wikipedia.org...
I do not read Khipus but my brother used to be big into the study of their writing system. The following linked picture could be the story of Godzilla for all I know ? O.K. not likely but still.....
nmai.si.edu...

I think an important part here, if you want to look for things pre ice-age, is the fossil record.

And there's nothing in the fossil record to suggest advanced homids? Nothing to suggest domestication of livestock?

a reply to: Hanslune
What wasn't going on was , nobody had domesticated any animals, except for one possibility, nobody was practicing agriculture.
Nobody was making pottery, which would still be here.
So how would such a "civilization" feed itself ? How would they have worked the land ?
We have found 400k year old spears, we have found homo erectus settlements that are 400k years old and we have found shell middens with digging tools that are 400k years old, these examples span three continents. So, how come ww havent found even the slightest trace of an advanced culture?, Because it never existed.

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: Hanslune
What wasn't going on was , nobody had domesticated any animals, except for one possibility, nobody was practicing agriculture.
Nobody was making pottery, which would still be here.
So how would such a "civilization" feed itself ? How would they have worked the land ?
We have found 400k year old spears, we have found homo erectus settlements that are 400k years old and we have found shell middens with digging tools that are 400k years old, these examples span three continents. So, how come ww havent found even the slightest trace of an advanced culture?, Because it never existed.

It's been proven time and again that contemporary to "civilization" hunter gatherers lived as well. The upper Paleolithic for example, didn't start at the same time for all places.

I think anything as old as a civilization 100k years ago would be next to impossible to find for all the reasons stated. Even if some mounds and stone structures were found that somehow survived two ice ages two things would happen:

A) nobody would believe it
B) nobody could figure out the slightest thing from it without a stainless steel plaque written in English saying, "we were here and kicked some but."

a reply to: punkinworks10

Punkinworks10, thanks for the summary. I was taken away by domestic concerns.

So in all of that can a more organized culture be found?

originally posted by: aorAki


For my money, palaeoshorelines would be a good place to start. However, based on the evidence we have so far, it seems we are the apex of Homo sapiens sapiens culture.

I would agree that we are the apex but in the past 80k-130 k before was there a blip of culture, a bit more organized, a tad more resourceful?

originally posted by: Tusks
Some of the gigantic monolithic stones at the lower levels at Baalbek and in Peru--those things would outlast steel and concrete. What would be left of NYC after 100,000 years of absent human civilization?

A huge pile of brick, pieces of glass, ceramics and all those things of ours that do not degrade - if people were part of the 'debris' there would be gold and cut gems in the mix plus some titanium glass frames and hip replacements.

a reply to: Shiloh7

Yes, I've read the first one, heard of the second but the third was new to me, yet I had heard of the megalithic yard, thanks.

We all know of scientists who have tried to break the mould and suggest other theories. They are literally destroyed by those comfy within their university seats and outside positions and who are determined not to rock the boat.

Yet lots rock the boat and do just fine; its not that people rock the boat it is if said rocking has any purpose. I can think of lots of scientists who have rocked the boat and been right and then their are those who have been wrong, and a few who were just nuts (it does happen). As I have noted before the changes in our understanding of the world from 1814 to 2014 is astounding - they didn't just rock the boat they smashed it and built a hovercraft (full of eels too)

a reply to: SLAYER69

Good post but what information do we have on coastlines as of 130-80k?

a reply to: Flavian

Thanks for a well written and informative response. I can from personal experience agree to the grow rate-burial of Mayan cities (my first expeditions were to the region around Merida in the Yucatan were we did a lot of ruin clearance).

For me, the best place to look for evidence would be the steppelands of Eurasia as they are so vast and there are exciting discoveries being made, although nowhere near on the timescales suggested for the premise of this thread. Until technology advances sufficiently though, i sadly have no idea how we could even know where to look, never mind actually finding anything.

That would be a massive undertaking, several generations in fact to do that type of search. However, we do know that there are many mounds and sites not excavated and probably many more not even guessed at.

a reply to: 727Sky

Yes but unfortunately that type of technology has a poor long term survival rate (in the archaeological sense).

originally posted by: Painterz
I think an important part here, if you want to look for things pre ice-age, is the fossil record.

And there's nothing in the fossil record to suggest advanced homids? Nothing to suggest domestication of livestock?

I'm not sure if fossils would have formed by then however there is no sign of domestication (but then has anyone done that research - I would suspect not)

I've picked that era of time because:

We were HSS and therefore as smart as we are now

Our civilization arose (AFAWK) we the ending of the ice age

SO why didn't cultures and civilizations arise at the end of the ice age prior to that?

One poster noted that population density were probably very low and that would be a problem but I remember reading many years ago about a French man who returned from Algiers in the 1880s, a convert to Islam, an early Pied-Noir

(Pied-Noir, plural Pieds-Noirs, is a term referring to people of French and other European ancestry who lived in French North Africa, namely French Algeria, the French protectorate in Morocco, or the French protectorate of Tunisia,)

He had a multitude of wives and had 42 children his children then went and found spouses and they in most part returned to live in the same area. By the 1980's there were some 1,000 descendents of said man all in the same small town in France. I mention this a possible way you could get a coherent (and intelligent) population blip - and you could find a way to feed them!

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: Hanslune
What wasn't going on was , nobody had domesticated any animals, except for one possibility, nobody was practicing agriculture.
Nobody was making pottery, which would still be here.
So how would such a "civilization" feed itself ? How would they have worked the land ?
We have found 400k year old spears, we have found homo erectus settlements that are 400k years old and we have found shell middens with digging tools that are 400k years old, these examples span three continents. So, how come ww havent found even the slightest trace of an advanced culture?, Because it never existed.

That is most probably true and that is the reason for this speculative thread. What evidence we have points to the conclusion, no early cultures.

So what are we missing? We certainly haven't exhausted our supply of (I need a term for this culture/ the era we are looking for/at - pre-ice age - seems daft, any suggestions?) archaeological sites.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: Hanslune
What wasn't going on was , nobody had domesticated any animals, except for one possibility, nobody was practicing agriculture.
Nobody was making pottery, which would still be here.
So how would such a "civilization" feed itself ? How would they have worked the land ?
We have found 400k year old spears, we have found homo erectus settlements that are 400k years old and we have found shell middens with digging tools that are 400k years old, these examples span three continents. So, how come ww havent found even the slightest trace of an advanced culture?, Because it never existed.

That is most probably true and that is the reason for this speculative thread. What evidence we have points to the conclusion, no early cultures.

So what are we missing? We certainly haven't exhausted our supply of (I need a term for this culture/ the era we are looking for/at - pre-ice age - seems daft, any suggestions?) archaeological sites.

I would imagine for one thing, the land masses would look quite a bit different. Ecological systems would have changed a lot.

My three guesses at finding a pre ice age civ would be under the water, under a bunch of sand, or under a rainforest

There is much speculation surrounding Adam's Calendar and a pre ice age civ all over Africa.

originally posted by: nukedog

It's been proven time and again that contemporary to "civilization" hunter gatherers lived as well. The upper Paleolithic for example, didn't start at the same time for all places.

I think anything as old as a civilization 100k years ago would be next to impossible to find for all the reasons stated. Even if some mounds and stone structures were found that somehow survived two ice ages two things would happen:

A) nobody would believe it
B) nobody could figure out the slightest thing from it without a stainless steel plaque written in English saying, "we were here and kicked some but."

If they found a site and could find something that was datable (C-14 would be worthless this far back) it would be believed. Perhaps they would get lucky and find a bit of clay that formed the hearth which was 'fired' and could be TL'd.

One can look at the older long strat sites for clues as to what can be found, especially any datable layers that are associated with the find. Sites like Blombos cave which are datable to 100,000 BCE

www.sciencemag.org...

www.pnas.org...

originally posted by: nukedog


I would imagine for one thing, the land masses would look quite a bit different. Ecological systems would have changed a lot.

My three guesses at finding a pre ice age civ would be under the water, under a bunch of sand, or under a rainforest

There is much speculation surrounding Adam's Calendar and a pre ice age civ all over Africa.

With just 100,000 years (okay 130-80) there shouldn't be must continental movement - erosion and shfting climates would have made a major impact thou.

originally posted by: nukedog

without those written records it would mean so very little.

The Inca didn't have written anything yet they were amazing architects and seemed really advanced. That's like saying an animal has no purpose because it doesn't have a social security number.