The ways of sacrifice; Abraham and Isaac

a reply to: DISRAELI

The climax of the process is the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, which might be seen as God’s way of telling the Jewish people that he never really wanted animal sacrifice either

Jehovah commanded (allowed) the Romans to destroy the temple. hmmm. Jehovah is not your friend. Its a cunning lofty petty jealous mountain god...

The Roman Empire went on to transform itself into the CHristainty of today. The most diabolical power structure enslaving mans true heritage

Yahweh = Satan. They have you worshiping evil.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

All Roads Lead To Rome
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: borntowatch

and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you." Almost like saying Abraham knew that they would both return

Or that he was ashamed to look them in the eye, or that they might stop him,

This was where Adam and Eve had failed

They didnt fail. They were the first true humans. They rejected the "blind" omniscient god. Within paradise they lived a non human cattle like existence.

Only somnanbulant misanthropes would identify with the proto human Adam in the Garden (prison cattle yard) and Jehovah

a reply to: DISRAELI

Gnosticism is just an excuse for making things up as you go along, "an interpretation of language by which words can be made to mean anything or nothng".

It has nothing to do with language. Here you show your utter disregard for any semblance of reasoned discussion. Or are you merely preaching to the converted with a sword in one hand and an unadultarated? bible in the other.

Blood sacrifice and the teachings of Jesus (not the apostolic writings) are worlds apart.

a reply to: TheLieWeLive

Most likely horned gods like Baal.

Baal is never depicted with horns. Furthermore there is quite a bit of evidence that attributes of Baal transformed into Jehovah

12tribes.blog-pad.com...
"In fact, the name Yah is derived from the four-letter YHWH (Yahweh), and according to the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, the name Yah means: My Ba’al."

a reply to: DISRAELI

"I do not want you to sacrifice yor children" which was much more dramatic, and therefore much more memorable, than simply saying so.

Of course this makes sense. Thats why the blind jehovah needed Judas scapegoat to point out to the romans and scribes where Jesus scapgoat would be with his followers. I mean the Romans were so stupid they needed a cohort (500-600) to find and subdue Jesus and his peaceful rabble rousers. Pfft!

So teaching example by drama (your words) in this instance was, the inept intelligence gathering of the Romans? or perhaps obfuscating the fact that Jesus of the Davidic line came to claim to be King of the Jews, and that the Romans had to listen to Herod their client kiing and quell a rebellion

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight
This thread is about Abraham and Isaac.
The arrest of Jesus doesn't come into it.

a reply to: DISRAELI

The story begins with the command which God gave to Abraham.
“Take your son Isaac, your only son…and go to the land of Moriah and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” (Genesis ch22 v2).

Not really.

Genesis is like the Reader's Digest condensed version of Hebrew mythology. Christians love to point to this story as a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Jesus, but it is far from that, actually. It's another, or possible the first in a series of games and challenges God plays with the "devil", just like he did with Job.

"The story begins" after Abraham throws Ishmael and Hagar out, "The Angel of Lord" saves them, and Abraham is delighting in his son Isaac.

Jubilees 17:15
And it came to pass in the seventh week, in the first year thereof, [2003 A.M.] in the first month in this jubilee, on the twelfth of this month, there were voices in heaven regarding Abraham, that he was faithful in all that He told him, and that he loved the Lord, and that in every affliction he was faithful.
16 And the prince Mastêmâ came and said before God, 'Behold, Abraham loves Isaac his son, and he delights in him above all things else; bid him offer him as a burnt-offering on the altar, and Thou wilt see if he will do this command, and Thou wilt know if he is faithful in everything wherein Thou dost try him.

Sound familiar?

For the writer of Hebrews, the story is a demonstration of Abraham’s faith, not just his general trust in God but his faith in the resurrection.

Nope. Our antagonist wanted to see Abraham punished and tested for favoring Isaac and tossing Ishmael out the back door.

Jubilees 18:1
And God said to him, 'Abraham, Abraham'; and he said, Behold, (here) am I.'
And he said, Take thy beloved son whom thou lovest, (even) Isaac, and go unto the high country, and offer him on one of the mountains which I will point out unto thee.'

Jubilees 18:6
And Isaac said to his father, 'Father;' and he said, 'Here am I, my son.' And he said unto him, 'Behold the fire, and the knife, and the wood; but where is the sheep for the burnt-offering, father?'

And he said, 'God will provide for himself a sheep for a burnt-offering, my son.' And he drew near to the place of the mount of God.

And he built an altar, and he placed the wood on the altar, and bound Isaac his son, and placed him on the wood which was upon the altar, and stretched forth his hand to take the knife to slay Isaac his son.

And I stood before him, and before the prince Mastêmâ, and the Lord said, 'Bid him not to lay his hand on the lad, nor to do anything to him, for I have shown that he fears the Lord.'

And I called to him from heaven, and said unto him: 'Abraham, Abraham;' and he was terrified and said: 'Behold, (here) am I.'
And I said unto him: 'Lay not thy hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything to him; for now I have shown that thou fearest the Lord, and hast not withheld thy son, thy first-born son, from me.'

And the prince Mastêmâ was put to shame; and Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold a ram caught . . . by his horns, and Abraham went and took the ram and offered it for a burnt-offering in the stead of his son.

SOURCE

The story takes on an entirely different meaning when the whole story is told, that has nothing to do with Jesus. This is the same story that was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls and the same story that the Hebrew people were passing on, through oral tradition, at the time that Jesus, supposedly lived.

It's exactly for these reasons, that the Book of Jubilees doesn't support the Christian mythology, that it was banned as Pseudepigrapha by the early fathers of the Roman Catholic Church.

Mastema is an angel who persecutes evil in Jewish mythology. He carries out punishments for God. He tempts humans and tests their faith. In the Zadokite Fragments and the Dead Sea Scrolls he is the angel of disaster, the father of all evil, and a flatterer of God. He first appears in the literature of the Second Temple Period as a personification of the Hebrew word mastemah (משטמה), meaning "hatred", "hostility", "enmity" or "persecution".
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: DISRAELI

No, didn't miss the point. If I claim I am God, and then order you to kill your son, what does that make me? A psychopath.

He was a rogue God, with a penchant for desert madness. You offer an excuse. That would only fly, if he did not order genocide later too. He did, several times. He is a crazy xenophobic racist murderer.

I have higher morals that YHWH.

originally posted by: Not Authorized
No, didn't miss the point. If I claim I am God, and then order you to kill your son, what does that make me?

No, one who says it and means it.
This one did not mean it, as the story intends to make clear- the order is countermanded once the purpose is achieved, and was always going to be countermanded.
I'll be looking at the question of war on other occasions.
I'm dealing with one piece of the jigsaw at a time.

I have higher morals that YHWH.

THAN YHWH

originally posted by: windword
It's exactly for these reasons, that the Book of Jubilees doesn't support the Christian mythology, that it was banned as Pseudepigrapha by the early fathers of the Roman Catholic Church...

But the Christian approach is the only one that concerns me, in this thread or elsewhere.
Since the book of Jubilees is not included in the collection on which Biblical theology is based, I'm not interested.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Jesus made no exceptions.

0After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, "Hear and understand. 11"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man." 12Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?"…

YHWH defiled himself. He is a psychopath. A tribal desert war God. Sadistic as well. Ordering the death of Isaac, and then he turns around and tells Abraham, just kidding.

a reply to: Not Authorized
He is a teacher teaching the importance of trust and obedience.
It is a slow and gradual task.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Shall we compare and contrast how do identify a psychopath with scripture, and YHWH's words and actions?

I think that would be a magnificent thread. Perhaps I can gather all the data, and post my findings. Put my ex fundamentalist information to good use.

It wasn't a lesson. It was the command of a brutal desert god, whom has no place in enlightened civilization.

originally posted by: Not Authorized
Perhaps I can gather all the data, and post my findings. Put my ex fundamentalist information to good use.

If you feel like doing that, then go ahead. As I said, my response is coming one piece of the jigsaw at a time.

Something was learned, as was the intention. Therefore it was a lesson.

whom has no place in enlightened civilization.

WHO has no place.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: windword
It's exactly for these reasons, that the Book of Jubilees doesn't support the Christian mythology, that it was banned as Pseudepigrapha by the early fathers of the Roman Catholic Church...

But the Christian approach is the only one that concerns me, in this thread or elsewhere.
Since the book of Jubilees is not included in the collection on which Biblical theology is based, I'm not interested.

Of course not! Christians are never interested in data that invalidates their theology! They like their Reader's Digest Condensed versions. Your denial is noted and your Christian analysis of the significance of the story is invalidated by the Christian rejection of the actual story in favor of a truncated one that supports the Christian premise.

No matter how hard you object, the original Hebrew story is what it is, regardless of Christian editing and interpolation of the Hebrew scriptures.

a reply to: windword
This being a thread on Christian/Biblical theology, it is obviously based on Christian/Biblical scriptures.
That is the framework I'm working in.
I would have used Jubilees if I wanted to write a thread on the theology of Jubilees.

a reply to: DISRAELI

YHWH has no place. Enlightenment has no place for dead genocidal desert war gods. Especially those that order children killed or other races murdered. He was no better than the other gods in the Council of God. In fact, some of the local deities were far more tolerant of their neighbor.

The lesson is that he is a false desert war God, incompatible with Jesus. A dead stick. Satan in disguise.

Why did you skip Jesus's words about what defiles a man? Is not YHWH defiled by his own words?

I don't expect an answer. Others can draw the conclusion though.

a reply to: Not Authorized
I ignored the quoted words of Jesus because that isn't what he was talking about.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Really. Let me guess, Jesus didn't mean YHWH with this statement too?

The Children of the Devil
…43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.…

How many did YHWH murder again?

a reply to: Not Authorized
I simply refer you to the fact that Jesus identified the God of the Old Testament as his own God and Father, as he would not have done if he saw anything wrong in what that God was doing.
The God of Jesus, the God of the Old Testament

As for the last question, I told you, I'm dealing with one piece of the jigsaw at a time.
I'm not going to be drawn off-topic.