Auschwitz guard, 93, charged with 300,000 counts of accessory to murder

a reply to: Swills

You know I am the first person to say some folks are too old for jail

But this i support, these people are bad

a reply to: Xcathdra

Good question.. How accurate were Nazis records when it came to who they killed?

They were pretty damn meticulous in everything else they did...

But...

Its important to hold these people accountable. Its important we remember that those who died have names and are not simply numbers.

They were, according to historians, just numbers in the camps...
So maybe their names were not important to the SS...

I think certain people should be held accountable...
But a guard?
Did he drag them in, did he press the gas button, did he round them up?

If not then he shouldn't be an accessory, it's illogical imo!!!

It's all a ploy, & he is a scapegoat...

What of all the Operation Paperclip scientists, doctors & the likes?

Do they get a pardon?
What about the last Pope...
Surely he is an accessory under these terms & conditions!!!


Also I agree we should never forget what happened, by choice however...
I don't think Israel should ram it down our throats every other week because their trigger finger is itchy for Palestinian blood...

Apologies for digressing my friend!

a reply to: DarknStormy

There are lots of things we could question my friend...
But we'd be banned just for asking...
Tread carefully because I enjoy you input a lot...

Even certain pictures have been proven hoaxes...
But we can't discuss it because we are painted as deniers...
When we just want to know the facts of the holocaust...

Mods: note that I said "facts of the holocaust" because there was indeed a holocaust, but some of the official story is fouler than swallowing pork!!!

People are probably going to disagree with me here....but he was just following orders. It's either "follow orders" or "end up in a camp yourself". How many of us can say we'd choose to die in a horrible way, instead of just following orders. It's awful, I know. But...I don't know. If he volunteered to do it...that's a different story. But a lot of Nazi's didn't have a choice. Not only that, but Hitler must of looked like the "winning side". If you've got people you love and care about and you want them to remain safe, would you not pick the "winning side". I'm not condoning what happened, at all. It was an absolute atrocity. But the people REALLY responsible were those in charge. Thoughts? Feel free to disagree with me or correct me if I'm not understanding something

Namaste

originally posted by: Tapping123
a reply to: Swills

You know I am the first person to say some folks are too old for jail

But this i support, these people are bad

This guy was a guard not one of the people who ran the killing machine. If someone said to you either guard these prisoners or get shot what would you do? If they prosecute this man then they should prosecute everyone that helped the Germans that includes the Kapos the people who worked for them in the labor camps and the ones who ran the ovens.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I understand very well the limitations of this subject and I know the choice is sort of accept it or shut up.. That's why I continue to question it bro.. Truth will always succeed over falsehood.

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Swills

Oskar Groening of Hannover, Germany, has acknowledged that he was a guard at Auschwitz but said he did not personally commit any of the atrocities,

Yah, he just looked the other way. Heres a portion of a book about the SS guards at Auchwitz.

pages 275 and 277 in here…

The Camp Guards

I would question the accuracy of this book you linked. If you read more than what you suggested it says that there were many foreign born people that were guards there and were members of the SS. This is wrong they only let people who could prove their German heritage to become members of the SS. If the author got something as common knowledge as that wrong then I would have to say the rest of the book should be questioned on how accurate it really is. This wouldn't be the first book written about the camps that later turned out to be a work of fiction.
Nazi Germany - SchutzStaffel SS

The SchutzStaffel or SS was formed in April 1925 as a section of the SA and functioned as a personal bodyguard for the NSDAP leader, Adolf Hitler. The SS was considered to be an elite force and membership was restricted to those who were pure Aryan Germans.

There were many foreign troops in various SS units, especially when manpower issues arose towards the end of the war. Not the core of the unit, not the leaders, not the "best" units. But still part of the SS and used for specific missions, jobs, and cannon fodder

The Indian Legion (German: Indische Legion), officially the Free India Legion (German: Legion Freies Indien) or Infantry Regiment 950 (Indian) (German: Infanterie-Regiment 950 (indisches), I.R. 950) and later the Indian Volunteer Legion of the Waffen-SS (German: Indische Freiwilligen Legion der Waffen-SS), was a military unit raised during World War II in Nazi Germany. Intended to serve as a liberation force for British-ruled India, it was made up of Indian prisoners of war and expatriates in Europe. Because of its origins in the Indian independence movement, it was known also as the "Tiger Legion", and the "Azad Hind Fauj". Initially raised as part of the German Army, it was part of the Waffen-SS from August 1944

29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS RONA (1st Russian) (German: 29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS RONA (russische Nr.1)) was a Waffen SS Grenadier division intended to be formed from the personnel of the S.S. Sturmbrigade R.O.N.A. (also known as the Kaminski Brigade) following Heinrich Himmler's order of August 1, 1944.

The XV SS Cossack Cavalry Corps was a German cavalry corps during World War II. With order of February 1, 1945 the Corps was transferred to the Waffen-SS.[1]

The 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian) was a mountain infantry division of the Waffen-SS, an armed branch of the German Nazi Party that served alongside but was never formally part of the Wehrmacht during World War II. From March to December 1944, it fought a counter-insurgency campaign against communist-led Yugoslav Partisan resistance forces in the Independent State of Croatia, a fascist puppet state of Nazi Germany that encompassed almost all of modern-day Croatia and all of modern-day Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as parts of Serbia.

The Azerbaijani Legion, or in German, Aserbaidschanische Legion, was one of the foreign units of the Wehrmacht. The Azerbaijani Legion was formed in December 1941 as the Kaukasische-Mohammedanische Legion (Muslim Caucasus Legion) and was re-designated 1942 into two separate legions, the North Caucasian legion and the Azerbaijani legion.[1] It was made up mainly of former Azerbaijani POW volunteers but also volunteers from other peoples in the area. It was part of the Ostlegionen. It was used to form the 162nd (Turkistan) Infanterie-Division of the Wehrmacht in 1943.[2] Later, some of these Azerbaijanis joined the Azeri Waffen SS Volunteer Formations.

The guy with the funny hat in the picture above is Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini, a notable leader form the Palistien region. He recruited Muslims for an all Muslim SS unit that was noted for wearing their traditional fez as part of their uniform.

There were many non-German and foreign troops in the SS in various positions, especially camp guards. John Demjanjuk was a Ukrainian slav, for example.

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Tapping123
a reply to: Swills

You know I am the first person to say some folks are too old for jail

But this i support, these people are bad

This guy was a guard not one of the people who ran the killing machine. If someone said to you either guard these prisoners or get shot what would you do? If they prosecute this man then they should prosecute everyone that helped the Germans that includes the Kapos the people who worked for them in the labor camps and the ones who ran the ovens.

Good point. You'd have to prosecute George Soros even.

originally posted by: filosophia
ATS does not allow discussion of holocaust denial so I guess you'll never know what we think about this.

frankly, it doesn't matter what you believe, the holocaust was so well documented by Eisenhower in such a thorough all-encompassing manner, that it cannot be denied. that's why there is no discussion of denial here on ATS.

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: filosophia
ATS does not allow discussion of holocaust denial so I guess you'll never know what we think about this.

frankly, it doesn't matter what you believe, the holocaust was so well documented by Eisenhower in such a thorough all-encompassing manner, that it cannot be denied. that's why there is no discussion of denial here on ATS.

What? Can you explain further please.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Why does your position not surprise me. How much was your soul worth? Was it worth it?

I Agree. Something's shouldn't be forgotten. Like events in the financial world in 1933. All wars, are bankers wars. Was World War 2 an exception to the rule?

originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: filosophia
ATS does not allow discussion of holocaust denial so I guess you'll never know what we think about this.

frankly, it doesn't matter what you believe, the holocaust was so well documented by Eisenhower in such a thorough all-encompassing manner, that it cannot be denied. that's why there is no discussion of denial here on ATS.

Right, because the president in charge of overthrowing a democratically elected prime minister of Iran and replacing him with an absolute monarch is a trustworthy guy!

www.theguardian.com...

George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.

The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.

His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.

The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

The debate over Prescott Bush's behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time. There has been a steady internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.

originally posted by: stardust22
People are probably going to disagree with me here....but he was just following orders. It's either "follow orders" or "end up in a camp yourself". How many of us can say we'd choose to die in a horrible way, instead of just following orders. It's awful, I know. But...I don't know. If he volunteered to do it...that's a different story. But a lot of Nazi's didn't have a choice. Not only that, but Hitler must of looked like the "winning side". If you've got people you love and care about and you want them to remain safe, would you not pick the "winning side". I'm not condoning what happened, at all. It was an absolute atrocity. But the people REALLY responsible were those in charge. Thoughts? Feel free to disagree with me or correct me if I'm not understanding something

Namaste

I agree with you. It cannot act as an excuse, as people must take responsibility for their actions but he was in fact a part of a force that was likely difficult to turn away from. People do cruel things due to social pressures that they would not do alone. At 93 he would admit it if he had killed people. He would want to repent. I believe him if he says his job was taking money from their clothes. What happened in concentration camps is a large scale example of what we see with other war/societal phenomenon worldwide. All else pales in comparison but is not dissimilar in nature. Cruelty is cruelty.

a reply to: Swills

I'm Really tired of the hypocrisy. If Germany can do this, why can't we? We Americans could then put Bush on trial for murder when he was in office, or Obama for their crimes against the American people and the murders overseas they committed by being the ring leader.

Thing is, if this guard was an American all he would have to say was he was under orders, and to take it up with the authorities. Germany knows there are no more living athorities they can use as a posting board, so they stick it to this guy. Like many guards in many armies, this guy was probably under orders to do certain things he did not like but his alternative to disobey would have meant death for him.

So.. whats the difference between this guard and Bush or Obama - Nothing at all.

I take that back.. Bush and Obama are worse because they are ring leaders - they are not just following orders - they make the orders. In comparison, I'd give this guard a big party and send him home with a nice cake and I'd behead Bush and Obama. Am I comparing Obama and Bush to Hitler? You betcha - the shoe fits.

a reply to: buster2010

…they only let people who could prove their German heritage to become members of the SS.

In the beginning, yah. As the war went on and more countries became subjugated they began to accept non Aryan and non German into the ranks. That is pretty well known to historians.

Although initially the SS was restricted to people that were classified as of only "pure German Aryan" descent, during the war the racial restrictions were relaxed to the extent that other "Aryans" could be admitted. These included Ukrainian Slavs, Albanians from Kosovo, Serbian, Croatian, Turkic, Caucasian, Cossack, and Tatar Legions,[36] The Ukrainians and the Tatars had both suffered persecution under Joseph Stalin and they were likely motivated primarily by opposition to the Soviet government rather than genuine ideological agreement with the SS.

Non German SS

In some places in Eastern Europe they still revere their German occupiers and oppressors to this day. They have statues of them in Estonia and Latvia. And Ukraine?

Well, Ukraine… guess who the thugs the US hired in Ukraine owe their allegiance to?

originally posted by: Swills



He was a guard at the concentration camp from May to June 1944.....

about 300,000 were murdered in its gas chambers.

This is a bit confusing. This guy worked there for about a month and within that month 300.000 were gassed to their deaths? Then cremated?

There are few things that don't add up and bother some people who like to think that there is more to the official line.

On April 18, 1945, in the immediate aftermath of World War II, The New York Times reported that 4 million people died at Auschwitz. This "fact" was reported over and over again during the next half-century, without being questioned. However, on January 26, 1995, commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Auschwitz liberation, both The Washington Post and The New York Times itself reported that the Polish authorities had determined that, at most, 1.5 million people (of all races and religions)-not "4 million"-died at Auschwitz of all causes, including natural causes. Some years back Franciszek Piper, director of the historical committee of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum, said that, according to recent research, at least 1.3 million people were deported to the camp, of whom about 223,000 survived. Which means over all we have a approximately 1.1 million people figure who lost their lives in a 5 years span at Auschwitz. The 1.1 million victims included 960,000 Jews, between 70,000 and 75,000 Poles, nearly all of the 23,000 Gypsies sent to the camp and 15,000 Soviet prisoners of war.

Has been always told that 4 million people died ad Auschwitz which brought the total number to 6 million. So if that 4 mil is less than a mil, how accurate are the other numbers?


As far as I know Auschwitz was composed by three camps Auschwitz I, Auschwitz II (Birkenau), and Auschwitz III (Monowitz) . This camp/s opened in 1940 and closed in 1945. So we have a total of 1 million people (not all of them jews) who perished in this camp and 300.000 of them died between may to june 1944?

This camp had four gas chambers with a 800 to 1500 people capacity at a time. And the crematoriums could be used with a 4 hours pause, time needed to dispose the bodies and cremate them. So how can 300.000 be gassed then cremated within a month? Is the math wrong or I'm missing something?

Just to make it clear. I'm not denying the holocaust. I'm not denying what happened to millions of innocent people. I'm not minimizing the huge loss of live. I don't appeal to the saying 1 murder is a crime, 1000 is statistics. I'm just questioning the official line. At the end that's what we all do at ATS, Deny Ignorance in any form being that a lie, a conspiracy or an attempt to dumb as down.

a reply to: jimmyx

You almost made me spit out my coffee. Thanks for the chuckle. Have you ever researched War Time Propaganda?

Your signature. It is ironic.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: buster2010
It's strange that they are willing to go after this guy but do nothing to the people that backed Hitler and sold him the chemicals that were used to kill the Jews.

I think they got around to that awhile back...

After World War II ended in 1945, the two directors of the Testa company, Bruno Tesch and Karl Weinbacher, were tried in a British military court, convicted of mass murder, and executed for their part in producing and distributing Zyklon B. source

Never heard of them going after Bush or Ford.