Black Budget - Good or Bad?

Originally posted by Murcielago
Do you think that Area-51 is still good/usefull?

Back when it was concieved it was a good idea and it had a purpose, to one-up the Soviet Union, But they were defeated over a decade ago yet Area 51 still gets bigger and more shrouded in mystery, while the Black Budget is higher then it was at the end of the cold war. It's currently above 30 billion and its said that around 20% of that money is being spent on keeping everything in the dark.

Some also believe that most Black projects have a White counterpart, but why? Wouldn't that be extremely wastfull? Like. if we have hypersonic spy plane why spend money to develop "public" ones like the Global Hawk, which is basically a AF spy plane that costs 30-40 million, while at the same time they develop one that cost 1 billion dollars because its goes hypersonic and so it cant be shot down.

Area 51 hasn't produced a plane for nearly 2 decades, makes you wonder what the hell they are doing with all that money.

Very few people know whats going on at Area 51, its usually a couple congressman and the people working on the project, thats it. Not even the President has access. With no overlook from the American public or all congressmen things can drastically go wrong, like spending 2 billion for 1 sub-sonic bomber, With a blank check and nobody looking over there shoulder and no dead lines they can easily steal money with no one the wiser.

They might be making space planes or just throwing the money away on old cold war ideas.

Is all this money still being spent for a war that never took place, or is it a down payment on WWIII?

Do you think that the Black Budget and/or Area-51 should be exposed?

Heh, trust me...there is more coming out of Area 51 than you will ever know about...Just because you don't see it, read about it, or see it on TV doesn't mean it's not there. That's the point of area 51, to keep secret things secret. Did you know the B-2 was developed in the 60's (or maybe even 50's, I don't remember). It wasn't made public for another 30 years. The military does a VERY good job of hiding things it wants to hide. They even hide things from one hangar to the next AT area 51. So unless you're actually working on a particular project, you won't hear about it until the military wants you to hear about it...and I promise you, some of this secret stuff is already being used in the war(s) today.

You can bet that if they weren't producing something for the generals handing out the money...their project would be terminated. Having grown up in this environment, I've seen projects cancelled, and people out of work until they come up with something else to work on...

I agree that there should be some more accountability though, especially considering such problems as the hazardous waste at area 51, etc.

Jaruseleh
Heh, trust me...there is more coming out of Area 51 than you will ever know about...Just because you don't see it, read about it, or see it on TV doesn't mean it's not there. That's the point of area 51, to keep secret things secret. Did you know the B-2 was developed in the 60's (or maybe even 50's, I don't remember). It wasn't made public for another 30 years. The military does a VERY good job of hiding things it wants to hide. They even hide things from one hangar to the next AT area 51. So unless you're actually working on a particular project, you won't hear about it until the military wants you to hear about it...and I promise you, some of this secret stuff is already being used in the war(s) today.

The B-2 cost 2 billion each, a program like that should have got'n cut. I like the B-2 and think its a good cool looking stealth bomber, but come on, 2 Billion!

What secret stuff was or is being used in the War(s)? You dont know. all your doing is guessing/assuming/hoping, what evidence or news have you seen to make me think otherwise?

[edit on 10-12-2004 by Murcielago]

Late to the party:

I like and support the black budget. The national security aspects of the issue is staggering. The U.S. in order to protect its interests needs to develop technolgy and systems in total secret. Once the details of a project is known, counters are more effectivley developed. In addition, the spectre of a black budget project, even the meer rumors, can force an adversary to divert resources trying to find a project that may or may not exist and develop a counter.

What's that old engineer's saying?

"If you know it is POSSIBLE to build something, you are half way to knowing HOW to build it."

If a foreign power knows the military has been working on a particular piece of hardware for a significant number of years, it is a good bet that progress is being made. With a little money in the right places you can find out where the work is being done.

With a little internet work you can locate the scientists and engineers who reside close to that place. Take a little more time in some college libraries and you can figure out the areas those scientists are specialists in.

You now know what, where and by whom something is being developed, and have a reasonable idea of the amount of progress being made. You also know what techniques and methods are being used. Is this valuable information that you would not have if you didn't know the hardware was even being developed? I think so.

Simply being a citizen doesn't give anyone the right to know everything that is going on. Being a citizen in the US and other democratic nations gives one the right to elect those people they feel can be trusted into the positions that decide what is done.

Instead of demanding information that is totally useless to you, I feel a better place to put your efforts is to ensure the people you have voted into power remain trustworthy. Even the 'Black Budget' is approved by the respective Select Committees of the two houses of Congress.

Besides, what would a picture and a name give you other than the ability to come on ATS or another forum and post threads with titles like 'Isn't that new x-10324 just the most beautiful ray gun you've ever seen?' And 'Would you rather drive the x-320978 or the x-980348623 to the prom this weekend?'

Does having 'Black' projects serve a purpose? Yes it does.

Does you or I knowing what those projects are serve a purpose? No it does not.

Concentrate your efforts on finding the very best people to fill the positions of power in the government. That is the 'People's Power'.

All IMHO, of course!

.
My biggest problem with black projects is they are an open invitation to fraud, corruption, and theft of taxpayers dollars.

Let's see . . . , you take the military, grunts go along with anything, Generals are wheeling and dealing with weapons contractors and making sure they get a cushy job when they retire. Weapons contractors like to nick and gouge everything out of the big fat government that they can.

Now if you can get a project labeled 'black' you can get all these shenanigans done in private with virtually no government oversite.

Look at all the corruption that happens with government oversight, now imagine not having ANY oversight.

Black projects = recipe for theft from taxpayers.

The fastest scientific progress happens when there is a free and open interchange of information and ideas. In an open debate environment new ideas come about. What bits and pieces are going to be needed to make a piece of technology work are almost impossible to know before hand. The ability of a scientist or engineer to figure something out is reduced if they can not freely exchange ideas with other prominant thinkers.

If scientific research is done in secret, it is usually not as good and it slows scientific progress across the board.

Black projects = reduced scientific progress.

Either the human species is a team or the game will probably be lost.
.

EXACTLY....Slank

It does overall slow down our civilizations technology progress. Think of where we would be today if the internet was never publicly introduced to us, or computers for that matter. A few scientist and engineers underground for 5 years working on something "cutting edge", it would take a lot longer for them to figure it out, rather then if they released what they know you would have millions of people all trying different methods to figure it out.

For the Black budget to stay, I would like to see a plane or somthing else amazing, be release at least once a decade.

Originally posted by Murcielago

Jaruseleh
Heh, trust me...there is more coming out of Area 51 than you will ever know about...Just because you don't see it, read about it, or see it on TV doesn't mean it's not there. That's the point of area 51, to keep secret things secret. Did you know the B-2 was developed in the 60's (or maybe even 50's, I don't remember). It wasn't made public for another 30 years. The military does a VERY good job of hiding things it wants to hide. They even hide things from one hangar to the next AT area 51. So unless you're actually working on a particular project, you won't hear about it until the military wants you to hear about it...and I promise you, some of this secret stuff is already being used in the war(s) today.

The B-2 cost 2 billion each, a program like that should have got'n cut. I like the B-2 and think its a good cool looking stealth bomber, but come on, 2 Billion!

What secret stuff was or is being used in the War(s)? You dont know. all your doing is guessing/assuming/hoping, what evidence or news have you seen to make me think otherwise?

[edit on 10-12-2004 by Murcielago]

Unfortunately, I can't give you any information. Trust me, though, it's there...and I am not guessing/assuming/hoping.

One thing I can tell you, because it's now public knowledge, is that the B-2 went public during the first Iraq war, and it had been around since the '60's. Do you think they would let that jet sit on the ground for 30 years before using it? Not only no, but HELL no.

[edit on 14-12-2004 by Jaruseleh]

I'm a optimistic skeptic. So I hope, but doubt.

I dont believe people who say things like "I cant tell ya", and i have no reason to trust you. Thats the downside of forums, yoiu never really know who your talking to. It could be a 12 year old kid acting like he's in charge of the Aurora plane - ya just plan dont know.

in other words - Give Me Proof.

No, I'm no 12 year old. I was in the military for 4 years and held a Top Secret security clearance. If you don't believe/trust me, that's fine. I know what I know, and it's secret for a reason. More power to the people keeping the secrets if nobody wants to believe they have them. It makes life that much easier on them.

We would be being fed 10, 15, 20 year old information all the the time, the average person will most likely never know what goes on behind the curtains, as many others have stated - thats the point.

As for a black budget being neccercary? I would say yes. Every wealthy nation in the world would have a black budget, they would all be trying to out do the others, stealing from each other etc. They would be developing technology most people wouldn't of thought of.

As for the President knowing whats going on, I very much doubt it. You'd find that most U.S. Presidents are just figure heads, there so the public can have some form of security blanket to hide under. If they knew a fraction of the truth they would probably be living in fear just like the people of many other nations.

The SR-71 was really the RS-71 and black before Lyndon Johnson spilled the beans and misidentified it for purely political reasons.
Wonder how more useful it could have been if he'd kept his mouth shut.

[edit on 14-2-2005 by Realist05]

This is very interesting. I love these type of threads lol. But I have a question. Is the "black Budget" part of the Defense spending or is it not included in the FY budget? And Another question thats sort of off topic but i know the US is the most powerful nation on earth but why are we & what makes US so advanced and so far ahead of every other nation. I always hear about how no nation rivals the US, yet when war with Iran, north korea, China, or Russia comes up it seems as if it won't be an easy war to fight and that were almost equal in capabilities with Russia or China. I even saw a post where it said that the US would lose if it invaded NK or Iran. thanks for the help and i look forward to reading all of your answers!

I support the "black Budget" and the secrecy of it because the US is the worlds only super power and obviously other countries would love to take that away from us, i mean who wouldn't wanna be top dog. Thats a pretty good accomplishment and I know i'm proud of it. I think the reason why Area 51 hasn't released a plane for over a decade is because they are working on space vehicals for either the air force or a new branch for the military. I think there was a thread or a news article about a new branch being added to the military and it would be made up of an all space vehical fleet. i've read a few articles in magazines and online about how the Pentagon wants to fight "Space Wars". I'll look for articles on these subjects if u want, but i'm sure u guys have read these stories cause i've seen them around quite a few times. I don't think the Pentagon wants to talk about this to much until we have a decent edge in having these space vehicals close to being ready so that the rest of the world doesn't know whats going on until they are ready for deployment. Why would you wanna reveal new advanced planes for space to the public when no nation is developing stuff like that.(or atleast that we know of).

Originally posted by metalfan87
Is the "black Budget" part of the Defense spending or is it not included in the FY budget?

its not included, hence its very hard to determin the amount of money that goes into it.

mf
And Another question thats sort of off topic but i know the US is the most powerful nation on earth but why are we & what makes US so advanced and so far ahead of every other nation.

a few things. A big one is money, since we have a lot of it, we spend a lot on defense. another is our ability to have secrecy, which we can do easily because of places like Area-51, where nobody is allowed even close to the actual buildings. and we only have 2 countries at our borders and there peaceful, and were a half a world away from every day fighting. and we have a lot of land...so theres no shortage on "military only" areas. combine all that together and you understand why we are still a superpower.

mf
I always hear about how no nation rivals the US, yet when war with Iran, north korea, China, or Russia comes up it seems as if it won't be an easy war to fight and that were almost equal in capabilities with Russia or China. I even saw a post where it said that the US would lose if it invaded NK or Iran.

those are all hypothetical... a China or Russia war would be a full on huge war, and being that we all would have nukes at our dissposal it could get ugly, though I doubt any nation would use a nuke unless they have been nuked, its possible they would if they are obviously losing the war and its a all-or-nothing sort of thing. If it stayed conventional (IE: no nukes or chem or bio used) then the US would win. I dont expect a war with China or Russia...But NK & Iran...anythings possible.

oh...and I agree with you on your "space vehicle" theory.

Originally posted by Murcielago

Originally posted by metalfan87
Is the "black Budget" part of the Defense spending or is it not included in the FY budget?

its not included, hence its very hard to determin the amount of money that goes into it.

mf
And Another question thats sort of off topic but i know the US is the most powerful nation on earth but why are we & what makes US so advanced and so far ahead of every other nation.

a few things. A big one is money, since we have a lot of it, we spend a lot on defense. another is our ability to have secrecy, which we can do easily because of places like Area-51, where nobody is allowed even close to the actual buildings. and we only have 2 countries at our borders and there peaceful, and were a half a world away from every day fighting. and we have a lot of land...so theres no shortage on "military only" areas. combine all that together and you understand why we are still a superpower.

mf
I always hear about how no nation rivals the US, yet when war with Iran, north korea, China, or Russia comes up it seems as if it won't be an easy war to fight and that were almost equal in capabilities with Russia or China. I even saw a post where it said that the US would lose if it invaded NK or Iran.

those are all hypothetical... a China or Russia war would be a full on huge war, and being that we all would have nukes at our dissposal it could get ugly, though I doubt any nation would use a nuke unless they have been nuked, its possible they would if they are obviously losing the war and its a all-or-nothing sort of thing. If it stayed conventional (IE: no nukes or chem or bio used) then the US would win. I dont expect a war with China or Russia...But NK & Iran...anythings possible.

oh...and I agree with you on your "space vehicle" theory.

Thanks for the reply. Everything you said made alot sense.

Now on the "space vehical" theory, I don't see why the Pentagon would release pics and alittle bit of info on new space planes that we've been secretly working on because it would ruin what the US military loves to do and thats surprise attack when a country is most vulnerable, which also makes sense. who's gonna expect a fleet of ships from space if/when we use them. Even if they do have some sort of intel on it how would they defend against something like that because it's not a conventional way of attacking. Anyways thanks again for your reply

Originally posted by metalfan87
i know the US is the most powerful nation on earth

No, i think you'll find there are more powerful countries. Japan for example. And for another China is more powerfull (not surprising considering their population).

Originally posted by metalfan87
what makes US so advanced and so far ahead of every other nation.

Once again i have to point out Japan. And also that the technological downstream seems to have formed a patern of Japan - America - Britain - etc.

America may be the only superpower left in the world, but this doesnt mean they are the most powerful. Remember that a "superpower" is judged by economical strength, the controll they grasp over their populous and having well established links to the rest of the world. Another factor in this is that superpowers are self-confessed. Britain could turn around tomorrow and state "we are a superpower oncemore" and no-one could argue.

But in refrence to the topic, it could be argued both ways.

E.G.

Keeping secrets, could allow people to lie/cheat/scam the various govts. out of money.

OR
Not keeping secrets, could be just as dangerous as arming civillians with weapons. Or just giving enemies a "deed to the country" as it were.

Personally, i'm in the middle. Secrets are there for a reason. Although there is such a thing as going overboard. And when we find that technology is being developed, just to be kept in the dark for years upon years , we know that such a boundry has been crossed.

As for the kid posting about how he was in the military for 4 years with a high clearence level. I personally would like to know afew things;

Why would you be on a website like this after serving in that field area?

How on Terra-Nova, were you able to gain such a position at such a place after only 4 years of service?
Achieving a "decent" rank takes far longer than 4 years and gaining a "superior" rank worthy of such intel access is a hell of alot longer still.

What clearence, rank?

More to the point, if you were relieved from such positions, you would be on early/normal retirment with a pension plan that would leave you with access to a much higher standard of life than even thinking of sitting on a computer, debating about how you worked in a hig clearence facility. No, i think your just some late teen/early twenties kid, who thinks they can role-play that they were Mr. 007 just because no-one can confirm them. The most anoying thing to this is that you will most likely reply attempting to prove yourself.

And i sincerely doubt this.

[Edit: Sorry, i just had to point out the "real" givaway on his post. The first word, "Heh". Its just not in the attitude son. No matter how relaxed a person from that line is, they do NOT use colloqueal like that. It's not in the uniform.]

To everyone on this post

Yours Sincerely




Pheonyx

[edit on 15-2-2005 by Pheonyx]

Originally posted by Pheonyx

Originally posted by metalfan87
i know the US is the most powerful nation on earth

No, i think you'll find there are more powerful countries. Japan for example. And for another China is more powerfull (not surprising considering their population).

Originally posted by metalfan87
what makes US so advanced and so far ahead of every other nation.

Once again i have to point out Japan. And also that the technological downstream seems to have formed a patern of Japan - America - Britain - etc.

America may be the only superpower left in the world, but this doesnt mean they are the most powerful. Remember that a "superpower" is judged by economical strength, the controll they grasp over their populous and having well established links to the rest of the world. Another factor in this is that superpowers are self-confessed. Britain could turn around tomorrow and state "we are a superpower oncemore" and no-one could argue.

But in refrence to the topic, it could be argued both ways.

E.G.

Keeping secrets, could allow people to lie/cheat/scam the various govts. out of money.

OR
Not keeping secrets, could be just as dangerous as arming civillians with weapons. Or just giving enemies a "deed to the country" as it were.

Personally, i'm in the middle. Secrets are there for a reason. Although there is such a thing as going overboard. And when we find that technology is being developed, just to be kept in the dark for years upon years , we know that such a boundry has been crossed.

As for the kid posting about how he was in the military for 4 years with a high clearence level. I personally would like to know afew things;

Why would you be on a website like this after serving in that field area?

How on Terra-Nova, were you able to gain such a position at such a place after only 4 years of service?
Achieving a "decent" rank takes far longer than 4 years and gaining a "superior" rank worthy of such intel access is a hell of alot longer still.

What clearence, rank?

More to the point, if you were relieved from such positions, you would be on early/normal retirment with a pension plan that would leave you with access to a much higher standard of life than even thinking of sitting on a computer, debating about how you worked in a hig clearence facility. No, i think your just some late teen/early twenties kid, who thinks they can role-play that they were Mr. 007 just because no-one can confirm them. The most anoying thing to this is that you will most likely reply attempting to prove yourself.

And i sincerely doubt this.

[Edit: Sorry, i just had to point out the "real" givaway on his post. The first word, "Heh". Its just not in the attitude son. No matter how relaxed a person from that line is, they do NOT use colloqueal like that. It's not in the uniform.]

To everyone on this post

Yours Sincerely




Pheonyx

[edit on 15-2-2005 by Pheonyx]

I must disagree with you on China and Japan being the strongest nation or super powers. But I think you mis understood what I wrote. I meant militarily, the US is the only super power and nobody can compete with us militarily. Now I do agree with you that Japan is a very strong nation economically, theres no denying that fact, but on defense issues they are definitly not at our level or even close. They can only defend themselves and cannot invade a country. I think it's part of there constitution or something like that(not positive) but I think it was part of the agreement set by the US & Japan on terms of surrender. The US protects them. If a country attacks Japan it's almost like an attack on the US because America will respond like it's an attack on us. China does have a very large population, nobody can deny that but I don't think they can really compete with us militarily with high-tech fighting. If we had a nuclear war with them nobody would win unless we had a secret defense that nobody knows about and we could destroy ICBM's thus making it useless to try and use against us. But if the war stayed conventional we would(I believe/my opinion) the US would defeat China. They have a very large population and plenty of bodies to send at us but there economy would lose the strength it is grabbing at today and they wouldn't be able to fund the war and all those people with weapons to fight the US. The US would launch cruise missiles and a massive air campaign to destroy China's AF and other advanced weapons which would make it easier for our ground forces to invade. China might have alot of people to send at us but when there being blown away by cruise missiles and bombs it would just be a huge bloody mess. Non the less America(I think) would win because of the money/ high-tech weapons and capability we have at our disposal. It would not be as easy as a smaller nation like Iraq or Syria. I hope your not offended Pheonyx by my response cause that wasn't my intention at all, just a point of view and expressing my opinion. I'm also sorry if I changed the subject alittle bit, but I did reply to actual subject earlier... so please dont bash me... lol

[edit on 15-2-2005 by metalfan87]

I'm in between on if we should have a black budget, I mean developing new tech is good, but hiding it, especialy from your own kinsmen, well I think its quit deplorable.

I highly doubt all the presidents had the same level of clearance as each other.

I think there was a thread or a news article about a new branch being added to the military and it would be made up of an all space vehical fleet.

I think you mean the USAFSF (United States Air Force Space Force), Though from what I've read on military sites, publicly the only things they do is stuff having to do with with missiles and military satelites not space vehicles, I could be wrong though.


As for the person trying to say they have/had high military clearance, it is highly doubtful they do,
First, if you had such clearance, do you really think you would come onto a website like this, or that the government would let you.
Secondly as Pheonyx said, it takes a long time to ascend on the latter of military rank and even longer for clearance, in fact I'm willing to bet all the people at A-51 that arent grunts or scientist are between 50 and 70 years old.

How on Terra-Nova,

You know I've only seen one other person ever say that.
Hmm Earth explosion.

[edit on 2/15/2005 by iori_komei]

Originally posted by metalfan87
I hope your not offended Pheonyx by my response cause that wasn't my intention at all, just a point of view and expressing my opinion. I'm also sorry if I changed the subject alittle bit, but I did reply to actual subject earlier... so please dont bash me... lol
[edit on 15-2-2005 by metalfan87]

The purpose of this website is to state your own opinions. I will not "bash"
you for doing so, unless you try what that other kid did, and tell the biggest crock os you could think of. But yes i must admit i know japan would never break the allience they formed after that wars to prevent another hiroshima incident. And by china, i meant that the Chinese military has a drastic amount of firepower, although if push came to shove, America does have all genres of ballistics under the sun and China does only conceal around 2 and a half quarters of that. I liked the reply though. I did not mean to offend anyones views myself.

Originally posted by iori_komei
Secondly as Pheonyx said, it takes a long time to ascend on the latter of military rank and even longer for clearance, in fact I'm willing to bet all the people at A-51 that arent grunts or scientist are between 50 and 70 years old.

Originally posted by Pheonyx
More to the point, if you were relieved from such positions, you would be on early/normal retirment

I appreciate the backup on that one. You appear well briefed on your oppinions. Although, "grunts" as you put it would also need to have asertained a high clearence aswell. Puting fresh meat on one of the top 5 secret basses in the world, would not be a smart move at all.

My only question to you, is this.

Who is the only other one, whom you have heard say that?

I would, however, like to mention something, which seems to have escaped all of your mental grasps. If America is the only one with a "black"
projects system. Then how is it possible that the new commercial "spaceplane" was ready to take up ordinary people - with 500K of coarse - into space the second that it was released, i mean what happened to all the rigorus testing. And it was not developed in America or by Americans. (Granted they did desire to have NASA Copyright it, but for credability reasons only) I hope this provides food for though.

[I look forward to reading the rest of this debate]

To all of you who participated/viewed this post

Yours Sincerely





Pheonyx