The Christian right seeks cultural and political domination

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
This country, at its actual FOUNDING, was a secular republic that offered "freedom of religion" - it was NOT. EVER. A CHRISTIAN NATION.

I did a thread many years ago that addressed where many of the Founders stood on religion and their views on where religion fit into our laws and legal decisions. This is a small excerpt from a New York Times Magazine article:

In defense of Christian Conservatives, the founders were rooted in Christianity, as Richard Brookhiser, a noted historian an author has demonstrated in his works. He does however, make very clear that while they were Christians they were also steeped in an 'Enlightenment rationalism' that premeated the founding of the United States and were building a country on "the laws of nature and nature's God. They didn't say, 'We put our faith in Jesus Christ.'"

Washington, in his copious writings makes reference to God, but none are Biblical. He instead refers to a 'Grand Architect', purposely avoiding Christian terms, "because it had to be a religous language that was accessible to all people."
He goes on to summarize that, "The founders were not as Christian as those poeple would like them to be, though they weren't as secularist as others would like them to be."

While many were religious, and in fact Christian, they did not allow their views to over take the fundamental superstructure of how the United States was to be founded.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

While many were religious, and in fact Christian, they did not allow their views to over take the fundamental superstructure of how the United States was to be founded.

Exactly. Thanks for that contribution. If anything, they were Deists.

I suggest people read Thomas Paine's Age of Reason and do some actual research into the "founding fathers" - for my part, I happen to agree with Deism. People forget that the PILGRIMS were NOT the "founders" of this nation. They were 200 years earlier, and came to escape religious tyranny imposed on them by their governments (the English and the Dutch people who refused Catholic OR Anglican teachings. People who were Quakers, Anabaptists, Lollards and the like) -

Oliver Cromwell was the impetus for the English Civil War - the pilgrims fled England to Holland, and they came together to the New World - so that they could get AWAY from religious imposition or oppression.

Too bad so few actually know the history of how this happened. Really a shame.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Xtrozero

So what is it that they are trying to pull off, I kind of missed that point.

They are trying to pull off FORCING their religion down everyone else's throat.

Perhaps you are unaware of the SC decision that Corporations can give as much money as they want to political figures' campaigns? Because, you know - corporations are "people."

No taxation without representation, right? If an entity is taxed and subject to regulation, why shouldn't it have a say in the political arena?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I've gotta disagree with you BuzzyWigs. (it happens sometimes). We aren't a corporate theocracy. The secular rule of law protects the rights of 'closely held companies' (companies run by families) to run their business in accordance with their religious beliefs.

That means the law protects Catholics who own a business from having to pay for abortions for the people who agree to work for them.

That means the law protects Muslims who own their own limo business from having to allow alcohol in their limos.

Things like that. The secular law protects peoples right to practice their faith and provide themselves an income while adhering to their faith.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
I suggest people read Thomas Paine's Age of Reason ..

That's excellent stuff.
I started a thread on it here - ATS Thread - The Age of Reason Discussion

a reply to: NavyDoc

No taxation without representation, right?

Right? Well, not really.

Here's how it really works:

Representation without taxation - that's what the giant corporations have! And now! New and improved! with unlimited freedom to give as much money as they want to those who are in a position to "legislate" morality, tax codes that favor the rich who then expect the general public to make up for shoddy wages....etc.!! And still NO TAXES for those corporations! Cause they HIDE their money.

Money-back guarantee you get your way if you throw enough money at the right people. Trickle down? No - siphon back.

Woot. Not.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
Oh and the only people who will disagree with you Buzzy are the Christians whom want a theocracy.

Nope. I"m a Christian and I want secular rule of law. (which we have).
Secular rule of law protects everyones religious rights.
And it protects nonreligious people from religious overreach.

This (hobby lobby) ruling is NOT religious overreach or theocracy.
It was a correct ruling according to secular rule of law.
If people want free abortions, they can just work elsewhere.
They can still get them, no one has taken that right away from them.

originally posted by: Daughter2
They are all against birth control and abortions but are against helping poor children with things like food and health care.

That's wrong on so many levels I wouldn't even know how to properly address that. Christian churches all across this country have food pantries and health outreaches and clinics. Heck, they have them all around the world. And the volunteer hours put in by people from these churches for things like tutoring and helping with housing ... And the financial donations .... Your statement is simply not true.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: NavyDoc

No taxation without representation, right?

Right? Well, not really.

Here's how it really works:

Representation without taxation - that's what the giant corporations have! And now! New and improved! with unlimited freedom to give as much money as they want to those who are in a position to "legislate" morality, tax codes that favor the rich who then expect the general public to make up for shoddy wages....etc.!! And still NO TAXES for those corporations! Cause they HIDE their money.

Money-back guarantee you get your way if you throw enough money at the right people. Trickle down? No - siphon back.

Woot. Not.

Yeah, no. We have some of the highest corporate tax rates in the world and then people wonder why businesses leave. You guys can't have it both ways--make doing business in the US difficult because you hate business and think profit is evil but then complain when there are no jobs.

Of course businesses lobby--but they wouldn't have to if government kept its nose out of business. When the government, with a stroke of a pen, can either break you or your competition, you are going to lobby them to protect yourself. Government and big government proponents like yourself created lobbyists--see how desperately and urgently you want the government to tell Hobby Lobby what to do, because that fits into your idea of "social justice." Well, when you get what you want--the government be able to dictate something as basic and simple as a reimbursements and benefits package--then you have given the government power to force things on businesses and therefore businesses will try to lobby government to leave them alone and bully their competition like the mafia. What you want is the ability for government to force your values on business and tax them without them having a say at all. You may think it just because you fundamentally hate business, but it isn't just at all and the greater problem is that you will in this manner give the state the power eventually to force you.

If government did not have the power it does, people would not be desperate to curry the favor of politicians.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Things like that. The secular law protects peoples right to practice their faith and provide themselves an income while adhering to their faith.

Yes, I understand that's still how it is, mostly, for now.

The OP title is from the article I posted - I do think it is a bit "alarmist" - but this country is on the path that could easily lead to it. I totally understand that it was only "abortion pills" that the HL people refused to pay for. That's fine.

So no, we are not YET a Corporate Theocracy - we ARE an Oligarchy, and when the religious right-wing Evangelicals get power, they WILL try to force their beliefs on the rest of us.
I grew up in a state where the CURRENT governor is one of these Seven Mountain Dominionists. His tenure has resulted in negative outcomes.

A simple search for Sam Brownback will indicate how deeply he's entrenched in the Dominionist movement.

Brownback ran on a platform that embraced the conservative fantasy that cutting corporate taxes would create so much economic growth that revenues would balloon and cover public programs. Brownback’s plan, adopted after taking office, is spectacularly backfiring.

State tax revenues have fallen by 9 percent, leading to cuts in teacher salaries, larger classrooms, draining the state’s rainy day fund, and lowering its bond rating. Brownback, like other GOP governors who like to throw their weight around (i.e., New Jersey’s Gov. Chris Christy), is under investigation by the FBI for “whether members of his inner political circle tried to pressure companies to hire certain lobbyists close to Brownback’s administration,” the AP reported.

Brownback faces House Minority Leader, Democrat Paul Davis, who has made the state fiscal crisis the top issue in his campaign. On May 30, Kansas’s Department of Revenue reported that Brownback’s 2012 tax plan created a $310 million shortfall for the current fiscal year.

www.alternet.org...

This article cites the Kansas City Star, however the link to the Star is a 404, so I'm posting it from huffington
]Sam Brownback Accused Of Seeking 'Absolute Control' For Kansas Conservatives by the Insurance Commissioner Sandy Praeger.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

What you should be worried about is the LOSS of rights, not Christians having too many rights. There are few interested in Christianity any more. In the US, the numbers are in rapid decline. Your concerns are wrong.

However, there are many many atheists and people like you seeking to control corporations to tell them what they can and cannot do with their money. You have no place to do so. The government has no place to do so. There are many atheists and people like you who seek to censor religious speech in a government setting. That is a violation of free speech rights.

In America, a Christian, or anyone else, needs permission to not be homeless since they need permission to build their own house house on their own property they way they want it to be built. That is slavery. You are too late. The tyrants have taken over. This is fascism.

The answer is cooperative loving solutions instead of the fear-based hateful solutions. I would bet you advocate like telling Hobby Lobby that if they don't manage THEIR money they way YOU tell them to, they have to shut down their business, or perhaps you'll go in and pry the money out of their hands because you just know better how other people should have to spend their money. And oh yeah, they are greedy for not having you decide the best way to spend their money. LOL. No. I'm sorry, that is a fear-based solution based in violence. Because people like you don't understand that, the world is heading towards chaos.

Man you folks are getting desperate. So a handful of religiously owned corporations don't have to pay for abortion inducing drugs and all of a sudden we're a theocracy? Just a few weeks ago you all were bragging about how the tide has changed and how the progressives are in control now.

I'm struggling to understand what it is you're freaking out about. There are 3 major issues Christians are fighting for atm...

1. Don't force us to pay for your abortion inducing drugs
2. Don't force us to pay for your abortions
3. Don't force us to participate in your gay ceremonies

Is that really too much to ask? Do you really think we're gonna start stoning sluts and homosexuals to death? Ya'll are the crazy ones and the title of this thread is self contradicting btw.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Government and big government proponents like yourself created lobbyists--see how desperately and urgently you want the government to tell Hobby Lobby what to do, because that fits into your idea of "social justice."

Wait, Doc, wait wait wait a sec.

I am NOT a "big government proponent". Nono. I AM however, a proponent of social justice. Allowing big business to take jobs overseas and hide their revenue in tax loopholes is not "justice."

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Xtrozero

So what is it that they are trying to pull off, I kind of missed that point.

They are trying to pull off FORCING their religion down everyone else's throat.

Perhaps you are unaware of the SC decision that Corporations can give as much money as they want to political figures' campaigns? Because, you know - corporations are "people."

No taxation without representation, right? If an entity is taxed and subject to regulation, why shouldn't it have a say in the political arena?

For anyone wondering, here is the problem.

I find this laughable. "The Corporate Right," you say.

The terrifying changes that are have brought America down cannot be blamed on one political party.

The changes---the end of America, really---are coming from both sides of the aisle, my friend. The NWO knows no boundaries. This isn't a one party versus another.

Wake up.

a reply to: Bone75

I'm struggling to understand what it is you're freaking out about. There are 3 major issues Christians are fighting for atm...

For most Christians, yes. But this thread is discussing the up-and-coming Dominionists - an Evangelical wanna-be THEOCRATIC organization.
They want seven things, not just 3 having to do with gay/birth control issues.

No. They want CONTROL of:
Business
Government
Education
Family
Religion
Media
Arts & Enertainment

the whole society. And if they ever GET that control, they will impose Evangelical dogma on EVERYONE.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
we are not YET a Corporate Theocracy - we ARE an Oligarchy

Yes we are an Oligarchy. And being an Oligarchy, there is no fear of a Corporate Theocracy. It can't happen. Major corporations who are the money movers and shakers are not religious types. They are mammon types. Wall street isn't into religion. It's into money.

a reply to: wayforward

The answer is cooperative loving solutions instead of the fear-based hateful solutions.

You're right! Social justice, and care for all. Including decent wages, housing, food, clean water, health care, and education for ALL.

Permission not to be homeless? LOL!! Many states have made it ILLEGAL to be homeless.

I'm so sick of people projecting onto me their lame assessments of my education, my background, my ideology, and my experience.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: NavyDoc

Government and big government proponents like yourself created lobbyists--see how desperately and urgently you want the government to tell Hobby Lobby what to do, because that fits into your idea of "social justice."

Wait, Doc, wait wait wait a sec.

I am NOT a "big government proponent". Nono. I AM however, a proponent of social justice. Allowing big business to take jobs overseas and hide their revenue in tax loopholes is not "justice."

But when you demand government to force behavior you don't like in the name of "social justice" like forcing Hobby Lobby to provide 20 forms of birth control instead of the 14 they agree with, you are for big government. When you want government to be that intrusive to get you your social justice, you get big government because it can't do those things without being big. Your ideas of "social justice" force business to go overseas and go to business friendly countries. You can't have it both ways.

a reply to: NavyDoc

But when you demand government to force behavior you don't like in the name of "social justice" like forcing Hobby Lobby to provide 20 forms of birth control instead of the 14 they agree with, you are for big government.

NO.
THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT HOBBY LOBBY. It's not about gays/birth control only, either!! It is about RELIGIOUS IMPOSITION

And mostly I'm concerned about the 1% super-rich not being TAXED PERSONALLY, and the Evangelicals trying to push Creationism and leave out real science.

I don't know much about corporate tax law - but I DO know something about how the rich hoard their wealth and would rather walk across hot coals than allow the 'common people' to have enough to live on.

sigh. But if you insist:

I Worked at Hobby Lobby and Saw the Troubling World of Corporate Christianity

July 3, 2014 |

It was the most difficult job I've ever had. I've been a history professor for years, toiled as a graduate assistant before that, and even did a stint as an IT technician. But the three months I worked at Hobby Lobby stocking googly eyes and framing baseball cards takes the cake. I wanted a break from academia but it ended up not being a break at all. I found myself deconstructing and analyzing all aspects of my job -- from the Bible in the break room to the prayers before employee meetings and the strange refusal of the company to use bar codes in its stores. (The rumor amongst employees was that bar codes were the Mark of the Beast, but that rumor remains unsubstantiated.)