Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

a reply to: diggindirt

That's not true. Paulides does in fact talk directly with families. Just not right away. The young boy who disappeared in CO. Jaryd Atarvado (sp?) David sat down with the father and the father gave new and very disturbing info on the case.

It's on the CanAnMissing site. I think there are probably more case than not in which the families are contacted by Paulides or his investigators. I would be highy suspicious if Paulides DIDNT contact the family. In the case I mention above the info Paulides gleaned from the father puts an even more sinister tone to the disappearance and completely changes what might have happened.

a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

People are forgetting deatils which is understandable. But threads like these just go on and on like a "telephone" game we've all played as kids. By the time a next page is up, the details have changed 100 times again. One thing people are forgetting is Herdman new this area VERY WELL…..atleast that is what we are told.

I think there are so many holes in Byar's story and timeline its ridiculous. Nothing he says makes any sense and is extremely vague.

Also there was people hiking at some point after Herdman went missing who supposedly heard screams or human voice coming from a nearby cave. Was this ever followed up on? Was there a cave even within the immediate area? How do we know Byars didn't keep Herdman in the cave until the time was right to toss his body.

I think until human nefarious factors can be ruled out I'm not convinced this was anything akin to Missing 411. One thing about David Paulides' cases is I don't recall a single one where two alpha males went out into the woods and only one came back AND the body was found fully intact i.e. not just a bone flap or tooth etc. The only one that comes to mind is the one where the climber on the other end of the rope just simply disappeared. But again in that instance how does Paulides' know there was no foul play. He doesn't. And the body was never found.

Here is a pretty good picture of where Herdman's body was found. I don't think it's nearly as rugged as those who've spent any time seriously hiking in the wilderness and backcountry would imagine. But it looks as if the angle of inclincation is definitely walkable and climbable possibly even in barefeet????? For the AVERAGE person or backcountry layman yes it looks rugged. But for Herdman? Is that the "cliff" in the background they are talking about? So does that mean the downward slope of the mountain whatever just goes right down to level land? What type of obstacles are there when one descends down from where the body was found?

www.sgvtribune.com...

Scroll down to the comments section as well. A few posters are VERY familiar with the area.

I suggest EVEYRONE in this thread read through this thread on another fourm. Very intereesting. These posters some of them know the area VERY well. Stillman guy is one of them and he is the guy who Mike Contacted. One of the posts says Byars told the police mike was "high as a kite". If so Herdman is an idiot and not quite the outdoor guy everyone has made him out to be. One reason why I stay away from drugs. Drugs would make ALOT of sense in this story. But it still doesn't explain it. Another poster says most detectives off the record suspect foul play.

sangabrielmnts.myfreeforum.org...&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=herdman&start=0

originally posted by: GreenMtnBoys
...One of the posts says Byars told the police mike was "high as a kite". ...

If this is the case - it could turn most of "this doesn't make sense" into understandable.
Particularly if it was hallucinogens or something like meth or MDMA/Ecstasy...

Maybe the toxicology reports will be able to answer that question.

Double...plz delete

a reply to: WanDash

I have personally seen some really bad accidents as well as trippin guys run off and get seriously lost before at out door festivals. Even guys who I knew were experienced outdoor types. To think these guys ate some lsd or mushrooms of the psylosiben variety would make all of the story fit perfectly. Right down to the buddy being vague and not making sense. He probably doesn't remember things well in perspective to time or order of events and had to make it up off of what he felt was closest to reality which is obviously going to be off. I feel bad for the guy because he was at least as far as I know a life saver and a decent guy with a family...just sucks if he went out and did something irresponsible like taking off into the brush alone if he was on psychotropic substances.

ETA: as well as the buddy trying to cover up the drug use...

originally posted by: diggindirt
a reply to: WanDash

Unless the coroner is up to date on the work of the folks at the Body Farm, he'd have to do a bit of research on the exact condition of the remains to even make an educated guess on the date of death and unless the guy had on non-digital watch that shattered in the fall, actual time of death will be pretty much impossible.
Warning!

The following isn't pretty but it is true---the crawly critters consuming the remains will tell within 8-12 hours how long they've been at it, thus narrowing down the time that the body has been decomposing. If I were the coroner I'd be sending lots of photos of the remains in situ to the folks in Knoxville or to the fellow out west who has been lobbying to set up a similar facility out there. Can't recall his name right now but his idea is to set up body farm-type facilities in the west to study rate of decomposition in arid conditions.

Thanks for that diggindirt.

I found this video of the "Body Farm" to give some information on setting time of death. Rather gruesome but very interesting (I didn't up-chuck so its not that bad). I am thinking that the authorities are being intentionally vague on time of death....possibly waiting for those who are more experienced to investigate.

www.youtube.com...

Namaste,
YogaGinns

www.jesseshunting.com... Near-Fillmore?p=2442619

A backpacking forum I belong to had a comment from a guy who spoke with one of the authorities involved. While I don't think this guy would lie there's no way I could validate what he said as being truthful so I won't share it. But, according to him, there's a different theory running around between the people who were on the search. And "accidental fall" isn't it.

Maybe it's a mystery that will never be solved. Either way it must be hell on his family and friends.

Can anyone find that forum? I'm interested in what is being said..


Edit: Thank you GreenMtnBoy

"I work with a local police force and every detective I spoke with off the record thinks there was foul play, likely with someone's wife/girlfriend involved.

The bare feet is the thing I can't get over. Every step in rough off trail travel, on sticks, rocks, thorny bushes, your feet would scream at you. And every step you decide to go further up, in the dark? I would expect his feet to be bloody and very scratched up. I am not accusing anyone, I'm just having trouble constructing a scenario in my mind that fits the evidence. The coroner will have the final say."

Very, very interesting.

>>
One of the posts says Byars told the police mike was "high as a kite".
>>

AH HERE WE GO!

I always had this in the back of my mind but didn't want to voice this out of respect.

Interesting bit which could explain LOTS.

>>
But it still doesn't explain it.
>>

Uhm..it would explain a lot to me.

a reply to: FistOfFreedom see link in post above me^ (the jessiehunting.com)

that is really interesting...someone posted that they were supposed to hike with them this trip but he changed his mind because his daughter was sick

was supposed to be a 30 hike total......there was a narrow area with the creek their shoes got wet, were setting up camp , and rest we have heard...dog took off etc etc

heres that other link with 7 pages sangabrielmnts.myfreeforum.org...

I'm intrigued. Logical reasoning would point to some sort of foul play involved, but if that is the case, it really begs more questions than answers. I've been listening to 411 interviews all day, I'm hooked. The similarities are boggling with this case and really gets the imagination going.

If anyone has a dusty copy of "Missing 411-Western United States & Canada" sitting around, could you let a poor friend borrow it for a short while? I would be so grateful!

I'm a fast reader

originally posted by: GreenMtnBoys
a reply to: diggindirt

A human body does not decompose to bone in a matter of days. That's BS and goes against common sense. Do you have any science backing that up? I'd like to see the forensics on that. I've seen roadkill sit on the pavement baking in the sun for a while before it was picked up or before you couldn't tell what it even was. If Herdman's body was as badly decomposed as it sounds it sat there for well over a week. He was missing on the 13th according to Byars. His body was found on Friday the 27th. That's two whole weeks. Are you familiar with Southern California climate? The area where Herdman's body was found is not only surrounded by brush but is an arid almost desert like environment. It's not like a body decomposing in a forest. The climate is very sunny and dry during the day and cool at night.

Im wondering if there any signs of predation on the body. That would tell us a lot. How bad was his skull damaged? There would probably be a difference between being pushed off or falling off a cliff alive and the body being throw or rolled off the cliff.

Did the investigators and SAR look for signs above on the ridge from which he might have fallen? I mean it's amazing to me when someone dies in society i.e. cities, homes, cars, there is a huge forensic team that goes in colleting everything from hair to blood, taking pictures of the body, careful not to disturb anything. Yet someone dies in the wilderness nothing is done.

The forensics should include detail of which bones were broken and how bad. You don't need to see his feet. Also was his neck broken? So many questions the general public will never be privy to. I hope his wife and family are asking the right questions.

Yes, depending on conditions at the site the human body can indeed take only a few days to a week to decompose. Even if only flies are present, the maggots they produce can reduce the body to bones in a matter of less than a week. Just Google the question---here's one explanation that I found with a quick search.
science.howstuffworks.com...

Maggots can consume up to 60 percent of a human body in under seven days [source: Australian Museum].

I might note that the above only refers to maggots from flies. When you add in all the other critters that feed on decomposing flesh, carrion beetles particularly, the skeletonization is sped up considerably. That's why I stated that the coroner would need a good "bug guy" (entomologist) to determine how long decomposition had been occurring. The different stages of the carrion eaters tell the tale of how long they have inhabited the remains. It is science, not BS at all. Dr. Bill Bass spent a good deal of his career studying this very subject and it is his knowledge that refutes your assertion that it is against common sense and is BS.
Perhaps I wasn't clear, I have studied these issues, it's one of the areas of my training as an anthropologist. I was trained by professionals who studied at the original body farm at UT. And even though it was a long time ago, when the body farm was a "secret" the principles of decomposition haven't changed. I do understand that the conditions in that area are different than a forest situation but the bugs are there whether it's arid or humid. The work of the folks at the body farm in Texas have proven that much. Just a little bit of actual research on the issue will show you if you are interested.
This case brings to mind one in our area many, many years ago. A young man disappeared and another young man was bragging about the fact that he had "done away" with his rival for the attentions of a young lady. Five days after the disappearance a human skull was placed on the doorstep of the young lady. I was called when the sheriff got the call to examine the skull. There was very little soft tissue left on the skull and certainly not enough to make an identification even though there were a few tufts of hair remaining that matched that of the disappeared young man. The sheriff believed that because of the condition of the skull it couldn't possibly be the missing man since neither he nor the coroner had studied decomposition rates. When I examined the skull it was clear that it had been impacted by scavengers but had not been "cleaned" by anything other than nature's clean-up crews. Dental records proved that it was the missing man.
Herdman had been missing for two weeks so if his death did indeed occur within 24 hours of his disappearance, it is entirely reasonable to assume that the remains were only bones and clothing. A close examination of the exact spot of the recovery of the remains would tell how long the remains had been in that place---again the insect activity will tell that story and the condition of the soil under the body. Leakage of bodily fluids will kill some kinds of plant life. It might be that the body was actually discovered because of this fact---some of the vegetation died back in that two week period allowing the searchers to spot it from above. I'm not saying that what happened because I haven't been to the site and examined it but it is a possibility to consider.
As to the condition of the bones, broken bones particularly, we can only say they were broken, not exactly HOW they were broken beyond the most common "blunt force trauma" that caused them to break. Impacting a hard surface, let's say a large rock, causes blunt force trauma but whether or not the rock was stationary or moving is an impossible question to answer in my experience because a person falling down a hill and impacting the rock will have exactly the same fracture pattern as a rock smashed into the skull from above. This kind of examination takes microscopic examination, it's not something a coroner or medical examiner can determine from a quick examination of the bones. While the location of the fractures can sometimes give clues, the fracture patterns themselves are not evidence of foul play----no matter what you may have seen/heard on various TV shows.
I hope this helps with your skepticism. Sorry I'm not going to go search out my textbooks and copy them for you, I'm sure the information is fully available on the net if you want to search. My knowledge comes from over 20 years of training and research, handling literally hundreds of sets of human remains and studying them. While most of our research was with long-dead folk, I've seen far too many (for my comfort) freshly-dead folk also. That comes from being friends with our local sheriff and coroner, two guys who knew when they were in over their heads and needed to have someone with more "book knowledge" than they had.

originally posted by: GreenMtnBoys
a reply to: diggindirt

That's not true. Paulides does in fact talk directly with families. Just not right away. The young boy who disappeared in CO. Jaryd Atarvado (sp?) David sat down with the father and the father gave new and very disturbing info on the case.

It's on the CanAnMissing site. I think there are probably more case than not in which the families are contacted by Paulides or his investigators. I would be highy suspicious if Paulides DIDNT contact the family. In the case I mention above the info Paulides gleaned from the father puts an even more sinister tone to the disappearance and completely changes what might have happened.

Sorry, perhaps I was unclear. What I heard Paulides say on an interview was that he doesn't make direct first contact with the families, not wishing to intrude. Yes, I know he had talked with many of the families but my understanding from his statement in that interview was that he didn't contact them, he waited for them to contact him. I didn't mean to say that he never had contact with the families, it's just that he doesn't go running to them asking them questions and intruding on their lives. At least that was the way he explained it in the interview. I'm not 100% certain but I think the interview was on Coast to Coast AM, maybe with George Knapp?

a reply to: diggindirt


good posts....you are correct about Paulides he doesn't usually contact the families....in the really old case of that missing boy (in the 60's), they happened to be in the area. and took a chance, the parents were still living in the same house with the same phone number.

the father agreed to talk out on the porch in order to not disturb the wife (they had agreed not to talk about it anymore)
the man had tears in his eyes and it was very emotional for Paulides as well.

He asked the dad(and he asks this when families bring their cases to him) what is the one thing you would like the public to know that was not revealed....what the dad told him was really disturbing.....

originally posted by: GreenMtnBoys
a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

People are forgetting deatils which is understandable. But threads like these just go on and on like a "telephone" game we've all played as kids. By the time a next page is up, the details have changed 100 times again. One thing people are forgetting is Herdman new this area VERY WELL…..atleast that is what we are told.

I think there are so many holes in Byar's story and timeline its ridiculous. Nothing he says makes any sense and is extremely vague.

Also there was people hiking at some point after Herdman went missing who supposedly heard screams or human voice coming from a nearby cave. Was this ever followed up on? Was there a cave even within the immediate area? How do we know Byars didn't keep Herdman in the cave until the time was right to toss his body.

I think until human nefarious factors can be ruled out I'm not convinced this was anything akin to Missing 411. One thing about David Paulides' cases is I don't recall a single one where two alpha males went out into the woods and only one came back AND the body was found fully intact i.e. not just a bone flap or tooth etc. The only one that comes to mind is the one where the climber on the other end of the rope just simply disappeared. But again in that instance how does Paulides' know there was no foul play. He doesn't. And the body was never found.

I think there are so many holes in Byar's story and timeline its ridiculous. Nothing he says makes any sense and is extremely vague.

Here's the problem with that statement---you haven't actually heard Byar's story have you? You have only what some reporters have written. In view of how really, really wrong reporters have been in the past, why are you assuming that this story is any different? Get back to me after you have personally interviewed the people involved in this case, and aren't relying on some jack-leg "reporter" or some blog for your information.
I realize that a goodly number of people posting on this thread seem to want this to be a murder or some supernatural event---I get it---and I realize you are basing your opinions on "what I have heard/read" but none of us has any actual evidence in the case, only words and pictures on pages. Some of you have such great imaginations that you actually should be writing novels. I'm not saying that to be snarky, I'm just amazed at the directions some minds take.
I'm also fully cognizant of the rumors that get started when "I spoke to someone close to the investigation" rears its head. There are multitudes of people out there who are attention deprived and just love to jack their jaws.
Simply "being VERY familiar with the area" means little in regard to this specific case unless they have interviewed Byars, the fishermen and the searchers who actually found and removed the remains.
As I've said before, I have no idea what happened to these men and without direct scientific evidence, I can't even begin to speculate intelligently but I do know that the average coroner or county sheriff doesn't have the scientific knowledge or equipment to make any sort of determination in a matter of days. I also know that when such an official makes a statement like, "There is no indication of foul play" it means that nothing obvious---like a gunshot wound or a knife found stuck into the bones---was discovered. It doesn't mean "we have ruled out foul play", it just means that it's not immediately obvious.
At this point in time all we can say from the published reports is that the skull of Herdman was found. We can infer that from the fact that the coroner stated that he used dental records to make the ID, meaning that he was in possession of the skull. Anything beyond that fact is pure speculation.
As for toxicology reports---unless there was substantial soft tissue remaining, they won't be applicable. Significant insect disturbance can skew the results. The most reliable toxicology studies are done using vitreous fluids from the eyes but in this case I have serious doubts that it was even possible to obtain samples to test. Just testing the remaining soft tissues will not show recent drug use---for that you need blood.
Hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion about the forensics of the case. And I'll repeat: please, please, please, don't base your opinions on what you may have seen on some "scientific" TV show. Despite what you might have been led to believe, TV shows do indeed take literary license with their presentations. It's entertainment, not science.

a reply to: diggindirt


they said they are doing tox...results will be back in 6 months, they must have something to work with....welll...unless the article is wrong

Saw something interesting while link surfing on the above shared hiking forum.. it appears that Mike Herdman had commented on another experienced hiker's blog asking a question regarding the sespe area.

"AnonymousDecember 30, 2012 at 10:56 PM
Hey David...ive spent the last hour reading about your adventures...I ran into the sespe two years ago and have done the doughflat tar creek partial loop twice.
Your descripts of finding peaks intrigues me...when youve got some time please fill me in on gear and type of expertise needed to give it a go.
I typically hike on trails...in the sierras, now sespe, and san Rafael wilderness. ..the bush wacking sounds fun just not sure on my picking a course, and keeping myself on track.
My name is mike herdman please feel free to FB message me with your suggestions
Thanks...keep up the cool blogs"

source:
David Stillman Blog

Mr. Stillman replied to Mike's post, but subsequently never heard from him after.

"David StillmanDecember 31, 2012 at 3:59 PM
Mike, that's a helluva lot to get into and I'm not offering guide services. Why don't you mail me your three most immediate concerns and I'll see what I can do to help you out. -DS
[email protected]"

a reply to: kathael

he didn't think herdman was very smart when it came to hiking because of the question herdman asked him.

a reply to: research100
not as bush-savvy as the media portrays him..
I still doubt that he would venture off into the peaks, especially barefoot... just... no.
I also wonder at what stage of decomposition he was at when found.