The Signs of God's Existence

originally posted by: swanne
Well, some scientists say that this can be explained by the presence of a gradient of multiverses, each with their own constant. In such a hypothesis, the "right" universe (with the "right" constants) is bound to exist for life to occur.

BTW I am agnostic. So my personal opinion is not really biased towards any side on this God issue.

Yes, that's the multiverse theory that is often put forward by atheists as a response to the fine-tuning argument.

There are a couple of very grave (and likely insurmountable) problems with it.

The first is that there is no independent evidence for any other universe other than our own, and in fact it is in principle impossible that we could ever have any direct evidence of another universe.

Another problem is that it doesn't even remove the fine-tuning problem. Whatever it is that is generating the infinite number of universes (and what actually is generating them?) would have to be governed by a complex set of physical laws, and we have no reason to believe that they wouldn't also have to be fine-tuned.

What I find most interesting about the multiverse theory is just how desperate the atheists are getting in attempting to defend against the existence of fine-tuning. They're now forced to posit the most outrageous theories of infinite numbers of universes (for which we have no independent evidence) just to cling to their beliefs. But when you're desperate, basic principles of reasoning such as Occam's Razor and that little thing called "evidence" just get thrown out the door.

Dreams,Imagination,Thought and Conversation!

originally posted by: Brighter
Incorrect. It's not just a 'small number', it's astonishingly small, precise and extraordinarily significant. The cosmological constant, lambda, was most recently calculated at 10^-122 in "The Value of the Cosmological Constant", by John D. Barrow and Douglas J. Shaw in a March 2011 issue of the journal _General Relativity and Gravitation_.

You're citing the guys who say there doesn't need to be any fine tuning to support your fine tuning argument?

Cosmological constant

Cosmologists John Barrow and Douglas Shaw of the University of Cambridge have now proposed a new approach to solve the cosmological constant problems, without any fine tuning involved.

The essence of their new approach is that the bare cosmological constant is promoted from a parameter to a field, making the entire Universe a quantum mechanical wave function...

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Oh, I most certainly agree with you, a 6,000 year old earth is ridiculous. But then again, not all creationists are young Earth believers. There are creationists (old Earth creationism) who believe in divine intervention yet who agree with scientism's assertion of the age of Earth, physics, and even evolution.

And, well, your cartoon is making fun of them too. It's prejudice to assume all creationists are young earth creationists.

originally posted by: Brighter
there is no independent evidence for any other universe other than our own

The same can be said about God. No direct evidence for him either.

Whatever it is that is generating the infinite number of universes (and what actually is generating them?) would have to be governed by a complex set of physical laws

Actually I discovered what could very well be the precise mechanism of multiversial formation: www.abovetopsecret.com...

The mechanism far from complex. In fact, please allow me to explain it to you in only one sentence: Any faster-than-light particles (such as tachyons) would by definition have the capacity move back in time (STR), creating new histories in the past, that is, their own alternate universes.

What I find most interesting about the multiverse theory is just how desperate the atheists are getting in attempting to defend against the existence of fine-tuning. They're now forced to posit the most outrageous theories of infinite numbers of universes

I am agnostic.

Just think - do you not realize that an infinite set of probabilities would by definition validate the probability of the existence of a God?

You are digging your own grave, here.

a reply to: swanne
The OP video denies evolution. I don't apologize for MacFarlane's cartoon in this context.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

I cannot watch the video on my device.

And the OP made no mention of denying evolution in his post.

In which case, I concede your point would be justified.

But the cartoon? Still unfair - it portays ALL creationists as stupid, including old earth creationists who are making the efforts to be compatible with scientism.

(I am done editing )

a reply to: swanne
www.merriam-webster.com...

cre·a·tion·ism

the belief that God created all things out of nothing as described in the Bible and that therefore the theory of evolution is incorrect

If they don't believe in evolution I fail to see what problem you'd have with the cartoon. Evolution is a scientific fact.

If you aren't happy about the OP breaking the site terms and conditions by not describing the content of the video, report the OP, don't complain to me, I'm not happy about the lack of description either.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

If they don't believe in evolution I fail to see what problem you'd have with the cartoon.

Because not ALL of them "don't believe in evolution".

This is just a common misconception which gave birth to prejudice.

Let me explain:

Old Earth Creationism

Old Earth creationism is an umbrella term for a number of types of creationism, including gap creationism, progressive creationism, and evolutionary creationism.[1] Old Earth creationism is typically more compatible with mainstream scientific thought on the issues of physics, chemistry, geology and the age of the Earth, in comparison to young Earth creationism.

Evolutionary creationism, or theistic evolution, asserts that "the personal God of the Bible created the universe and life through evolutionary processes."[3] According to the American Scientific Affiliation:

"A theory of theistic evolution (TE) — also called evolutionary creation — proposes that God's method of creation was to cleverly design a universe in which everything would naturally evolve. Usually the "evolution" in "theistic evolution" means Total Evolution — astronomical evolution (to form galaxies, solar systems,...) and geological evolution (to form the earth's geology) plus chemical evolution (to form the first life) and biological evolution (for the development of life)"

The Genesis account is then interpreted as an account of the process of cosmic evolution, providing a broad base on which any number of theories and interpretations are built. Proponents of the day-age theory can be found among theistic evolutionists and progressive creationists.
The day-age theory tries to reconcile these views by arguing that the creation "days" were not ordinary 24-hour days, but actually lasted for long periods of time—or as the theory's name implies: the "days" each lasted an age. Most advocates of old Earth creationism hold that the six days referred to in the creation account given in Genesis are not ordinary 24-hour days, as the Hebrew word for "day" (yom) can be interpreted in this context to mean a long period of time (thousands or millions of years) rather than a 24-hour day.[9] According to this view, the sequence and duration of the creation "days" is representative or symbolic of the sequence and duration of events that scientists theorize to have happened, such that Genesis can be read as a summary of modern science, simplified for the benefit of pre-scientific humans.

a reply to: swanne
What you wrote doesn't change the dictionary definition of creationists, as well as the common usage in language that creationists tend to deny evolution, which is why the dictionary says what it says.

If people who believe in theistic evolution choose to call themselves "creationists" for some unfathomable reason, which then associates them with the evolution deniers, don't find this behavior to be that intelligent. Why not call themselves "theistic evolutionists"?

For theistic evolutionists who refer to themselves as theistic evolutionists, the cartoon doesn't say "theistic evolutionists" and thus is not applicable to those with such beliefs. For theistic evolutionists who refer to themselves as creationists, this seems to be an extremely silly thing to do so I still fail to see how the cartoon wouldn't be applicable, especially given the way the dictionary defines creationist as a denier of evolution.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

What you wrote doesn't change the dictionary definition of creationists, as well as the common usage in language that creationists tend to deny evolution, which is why the dictionary says what it says.

Well, the dictionary definition is wrong. Perhaps it has been written by secularists who had only a partial knowledge of creationism.

"Creationism" only refers to the belief that God created some parts or some force of the Universe. Since there exist creationists who believe that God created evolution, the sentence "all creationists deny evolution" is false.

If people who believe in theistic evolution choose to call themselves "creationists" for some unfathomable reason, which then associates them with the evolution deniers, don't find this behavior to be that intelligent. Why not call themselves "theistic evolutionists"?

Because although theistic evolutionists do acknowledge that things such as physics, geology and evolution are true, they nevertheless believe that God is the orignal creator of all these forces. Hence the name "creationists".

a reply to: Brighter

I'll give you a refutation of the fine tuning argument, there is no valid evidence for god either. Everything you JUST said about the infinite universe theory holds true for the god argument as well. At least the infinite universe theory is something considered after extrapolating physical laws and effects within the universe to outside the universe (admittedly a huge jump in logic, I'll give you that). The god argument starts with the premise that god exists then created the evidence to support it. In fact, that IS the fine tuning argument in a nutshell. The confirmation bias that god exists.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. Real life gets in the way sometimes.

You actually misunderstood my response. As I clearly indicated, I was citing their paper as evidence for the *value* of the cosmological constant.

By the way, the cosmological constant is just a single physical constant that is fine-tuned. Here are 92 more:

Strong nuclear force constant
Weak nuclear force constant
Gravitational force constant
Electromagnetic force constant
Ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force constant
Ratio of proton to electron mass
Ratio of number of protons to number of electrons
Ratio of proton to electron charge
Mass density of the universe
Baryon (proton and neutron) density of the universe
Space energy or dark energy density of the universe
Ratio of space energy density to mass density
Entropy level of the universe
Velocity of light
Age of the universe
Uniformity of radiation
Homogeneity of the universe
Average distance between galaxies
Average distance between galaxy clusters
Average distance between stars
Average size and distribution of galaxy clusters
Numbers, sizes, and locations of cosmic voids
Electromagnetic fine structure constant
Gravitational fine-structure constant
Decay rate of protons
Ground state energy level for helium-4
Carbon-12 to oxygen-16 nuclear energy level ratio
Decay rate for beryllium-8
Ratio of neutron mass to proton mass
Initial excess of nucleons over antinucleons
Polarity of the water molecule
Epoch for hypernova eruptions
Number and type of hypernova eruptions
Epoch for supernova eruptions
Number and types of supernova eruptions
Epoch for white dwarf binaries
Density of white dwarf binaries
Ratio of exotic matter to ordinary matter
Number of effective dimensions in the early universe
Number of effective dimensions in the present universe
Mass values for the active neutrinos
Number of different species of active neutrinos
Number of active neutrinos in the universe
Mass value for the sterile neutrino
Number of sterile neutrinos in the universe
Decay rates of exotic mass particles
Magnitude of the temperature ripples in cosmic background radiation
Size of the relativistic dilation factor
Magnitude of the Heisenberg uncertainty
Quantity of gas deposited into the deep intergalactic medium by the first supernovae
Positive nature of cosmic pressures
Positive nature of cosmic energy densities
Density of quasars
Decay rate of cold dark matter particles
Relative abundances of different exotic mass particles
Degree to which exotic matter self interacts
Epoch at which the first stars (metal-free pop III stars) begin to form
Epoch at which the first stars (metal-free pop III stars cease to form
Number density of metal-free pop III stars
Average mass of metal-free pop III stars
Epoch for the formation of the first galaxies
Epoch for the formation of the first quasars
Amount, rate, and epoch of decay of embedded defects
Ratio of warm exotic matter density to cold exotic matter density
Ratio of hot exotic matter density to cold exotic matter density
Level of quantization of the cosmic spacetime fabric
Flatness of universe's geometry
Average rate of increase in galaxy sizes
Change in average rate of increase in galaxy sizes throughout cosmic history
Constancy of dark energy factors
Epoch for star formation peak
Location of exotic matter relative to ordinary matter
Strength of primordial cosmic magnetic field
Level of primordial magnetohydrodynamic turbulence
Level of charge-parity violation
Number of galaxies in the observable universe
Polarization level of the cosmic background radiation
Date for completion of second reionization event of the universe
Date of subsidence of gamma-ray burst production
Relative density of intermediate mass stars in the early history of the universe
Water's temperature of maximum density
Water's heat of fusion
Water's heat of vaporization
Number density of clumpuscules (dense clouds of cold molecular hydrogen gas) in the universe
Average mass of clumpuscules in the universe
Location of clumpuscules in the universe
Dioxygen's kinetic oxidation rate of organic molecules
Level of paramagnetic behavior in dioxygen
Density of ultra-dwarf galaxies (or supermassive globular clusters) in the middle-aged universe
Degree of space-time warping and twisting by general relativistic factors
Percentage of the initial mass function of the universe made up of intermediate mass stars
Strength of the cosmic primordial magnetic field

Keep in mind that only a single one of these values needs to be fine-tuned in order for the argument to work. All the rest are just icing on the cake. In other words, you'd have to prove that all of the above are *not* fine-tuned.

Do you have any such evidence?

Also, did you even *read* the paper that you posted? It's just a *proposal*. Can you cite a single published study in a peer-reviewed journal that contains multiple independent empirical verifications of their proposal?

a reply to: swanne

"The same can be said about God."

This is quite simply false. There is an enormous amount of evidence that the universe was designed. See the 93 fine-tuned physical constants that I mentioned above.

Looking forward to you 'debunking' each and every one.

I could even simply point out the very existence of the laws of logic, set theory and mathematics as evidence for a Designer. So where did these laws come from? Out of thin air? Blind chance? Sorry, but that's unintelligible. The only thing that humans have ever observed to have created any law is a mind.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary?

And how about the laws of physics themselves?

And as to your 'theory', how many independently verifiable experiments directly support it?

Which peer-reviewed journal or journals was your theory published in?

Also, does this mechanism involve any laws? If so, where did the laws come from?

Check mate

a reply to: Krazysh0t

"I'll give you a refutation of the fine tuning argument, there is no valid evidence for god either"

Hahaha, what? Please elaborate this argument.

"The god argument starts with the premise that god exists then created the evidence to support it. In fact, that IS the fine tuning argument in a nutshell. The confirmation bias that god exists."

No, no, just...no. You're just misunderstanding the argument. In fact, the beauty of the fine-tuning argument is just that it *doesn't* presuppose a fine-tuner. And there is plenty of independent scientific evidence for the fine-tuning of each of the constants that I mentioned (see the end of my post). In fact, no sane physicist (atheist or otherwise) *denies* the fine-tuning of all of these constants. They *have* to accept them based on the scientific data (again, see the articles at the end of my post). What atheists are now forced to do is to posit insane theories to try to explain it away, such as the multiverse theory, for which there is no (and never will be) any real evidence. To get an even better idea of just how desperate atheists are getting in trying to get around the fine-tuning problem, you have Stephen Hawking releasing his latest book "The Grand Design" in which he attempts to argue that the universe will create itself from nothing because the law of gravity exists (cue laughter). I hope you can see that this isn't even science. It's complete nonsense. In fact, in one of my posts above I've already demonstrated the problem that the existence of *any* law gives an atheist. Not to mention that Hawkings 'theory' has been *thoroughly* debunked by Oxford University Professor John Lennox in "God and Stephen Hawking: Whose Design Is It Anyway?".

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(continued below)

Evidence for fine-tuning of distinct physical constants (continued):

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George F. R. Ellis, "The Shape of the Universe," Nature, 425 (2003), pp. 566-567.
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(continued below)

Evidence for fine-tuning of distinct physical constants (continued):

Sean T. Prigge, et al, "Dioxygen Binds End-On to Mononuclear Copper in a Precatalytic Enzyme Complex," Science, 304 (2004), pp. 864-867.
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a reply to: Brighter
a reply to: Brighter
a reply to: Brighter

As these videos point out there are severe flaws with using fine-tuning arguments to support theistic viewpoints, which Carroll addresses specifically and the other two videos more broadly:

Is the Universe Fine Tuned for Life?

In short, NO. Do we need to invoke an intelligent designer to explain why the natural forces are the way they are? NO. Science is still researching how the laws of physics are determined, but everything that we know today tells us its not the universe that is fine-tuned for life, but life, through evolution, that has fine-tuned itself for the universe.

Fine Tuned Universe ? (Neil Tyson,Leading Astrophysicist)

Tyson talks about all the things that cause death and destruction of humans which probably wouldn't be there if the universe was really fine tuned for human life, and how most of the universe isn't habitable by humans

Responding to the "Fine Tuning" Argument for God (Sean Carroll)

Carroll explains 5 reasons why theism doesn't offer a solution to the fine tuning problem

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: jeep3r
a reply to: itsallgonenow

I was intrigued by the title of this thread, but I think you should add a brief abstract of the video content to this OP. Not everyone on here has the time to watch a 2h documentary in order to post a reply or discuss.

Here's what it says at 1m38s:

"It's so amazing that creationists were right all along".

To put this in context, here is Seth McFarlane's assessment of creationists and their understanding of science:

I didn't see anything scientific in the video, it's theistic propaganda saying essentially that science doesn't understand 100% of the universe therefore we can make up whatever we want to fill in the gaps, which must of course be God.

They say abiogenisis must be impossible so life can't come from nothing but fail to see the irony that's exactly what they seem to be claiming for God.

This is a religion video, not a science video.

Geez, science really doesn't actually say anything much about God, and God doesn't say much about science, either.

Since such is the case, your opposition to the opinions of those who believe differently than you is not representative of any science but merely your opinion.

But I doubt that you will see that.

a reply to: chr0naut
So I take it you didn't watch the video in the OP? Your comment suggests you didn't, and you don't even know what the topic of the thread is.

The video is arguing against things well-founded in science, like evolution. Evolution is not considered opinion but scientific fact, or are you denying evolution too and calling it an opinion?