Russia trying to 'dismember' Ukraine through protests, Kiev says

reply to post by Xcathdra

Why would there be? They ("Shield Missiles') are defensive in nature and are only used when someone else attacks.

I added the parenthesis. Desert Storm was called Desert Shield in the beginning, too.

I am holding a hammer poised over someones head as a "defensive" measure, right.

But thats how it always begins. As "defensive measures".

Like citing "National Security". Yes, we are going to "secure our nation"… way over there.

Deceptive intent. Lends little credibility to actually "defending" America or Americans.

reply to post by Xcathdra

It does not matter how many time you use the word coup, it does not make it valid or factual.

Neither does burning mountains of tires, hurling homemade bombs and molotov cocktails substitute for voting either.

Unless thats the new definition for "democratic process".

MrStyx

I don't condone muscle tactics anywhere in the world, no matter who is doing it. That is true objectivity. I don't involve myself with he did it too arguments because they hold no weight. You haven't a leg to stand on neither does Russia. Its a land grab plain and simple. Empire building at its finest. The reason is irrelevant. The methods are my only concern.

Wow, that is actually a bit insane. Let's line it up in a civil manner.

Muscle tactics are bad, diplomacy is good.

Afghanistan, Iraq.

But that doesn't matter, because the argument who's bombing the entire world at will simply doesn't doesn't hold any weight. OK then, moving on.

When America stages elections under its guns in the country it just occupied, that's not a land grab, it's not an oil grad, it's freedom and democracy at work. Check!

When pro-Russian Ukrainians refuse to exist under OPENLY NAZI GOVERNMENT and hold democratic referendum to secure Russian protection, that's a land grab.

Well mister, there are people living on that land, and THEY VOTED FOR RUSSIA, but to you reasons are irrelevant. Apparently to you methods are important.

So in that case, it is rather disappointing that Russians didn't deal with this development American style - just bombing everything to crap and then installing a puppet government.

What did you learn from it? I learned that treaties, memorandums, agreements, etc are just pieces of paper that were signed yesteryear and mean nothing now. I learned that hypocrisy is alive and well, and I learned reden doesn't have the mental capacity to have a formal conversation without calling names.

Why don't you start with every single treaty US wiped its ass with. I warn you, that'll be a lot of wiping.

Feel free to begin with American Indian treaties.

"Russian Indians" got nukes though, so when they are willing to use them as political leverage it's a bit harder to trick them with beads and mirrors into giving up their stuff.

And please, don't worry yourself with my mental capacity, at least what ever I got is all home grown and not factory processed and prepackaged with a corporate logo on it.

Cheers

reply to post by Xcathdra

Sanctions and a blockade are not the same thing.

"Sanctions" are simply a gentle euphemism for a form of blockade.

"You can't do this and you can't do that."

In times of war combatants blockade each others countries to deny materials and resources needed to carry on the war effort. The word "Sanctions" is another way of saying "blockade" and is most definitely a tactic of war.

I noticed you were quick to redefine the word where I used it.

Like supplanting the term "Humanitarian Intervention" for Invasion, it is another propaganda tactic used to divert peoples minds from the reality of events. Usually the aggressive side in any conflict plays down their intentions and disguises them in their official announcements so as to hide their true intentions and blind the public.

You go ahead and keep doing that and I will keep pointing out those deceptive intentions. Fair enough?

reply to post by renden


ROFL

reply to post by intrptr

But thats how it always begins. As "defensive measures".

funny, eh? all the wars started by the department of defence...
and with the facist and nazis, it always seems to be a false flag paid for with banker bucks to boot

I find it interesting how folks confuse banker funded ( read yesterdays imf ) bolshevik, ( zionists - yesterdays IDF ) stalinism,
( yeaterdays US type dictatorial obamaesque installation), with modern russia that just tossed those oil-igarchs out

reply to post by renden


Maybe the reason that the USA is coming out with these crazy plans is because the markets with 300-700 trillions dollars worth of derivatives is crashing down around their ears.

In recent weeks I've seen Kerry on TV acting like he has lost him memory and Obama talking (reading scripts) as if he has forgotten how to count when he does not know the difference between one being killed in the Crimea during the elections and 1,000,000 people that got killed in Iraq and all on the back of WMD Lies.

Something is wrong, not sure what but the banker puppets from Washington sure are acting strange.

renden

MrStyx

I don't condone muscle tactics anywhere in the world, no matter who is doing it. That is true objectivity. I don't involve myself with he did it too arguments because they hold no weight. You haven't a leg to stand on neither does Russia. Its a land grab plain and simple. Empire building at its finest. The reason is irrelevant. The methods are my only concern.

Wow, that is actually a bit insane. Let's line it up in a civil manner.

Muscle tactics are bad, diplomacy is good.

Afghanistan, Iraq.

But that doesn't matter, because the argument who's bombing the entire world at will simply doesn't doesn't hold any weight. OK then, moving on.

When America stages elections under its guns in the country it just occupied, that's not a land grab, it's not an oil grad, it's freedom and democracy at work. Check!

When pro-Russian Ukrainians refuse to exist under OPENLY NAZI GOVERNMENT and hold democratic referendum to secure Russian protection, that's a land grab.

Well mister, there are people living on that land, and THEY VOTED FOR RUSSIA, but to you reasons are irrelevant. Apparently to you methods are important.

So in that case, it is rather disappointing that Russians didn't deal with this development American style - just bombing everything to crap and then installing a puppet government.

What did you learn from it? I learned that treaties, memorandums, agreements, etc are just pieces of paper that were signed yesteryear and mean nothing now. I learned that hypocrisy is alive and well, and I learned reden doesn't have the mental capacity to have a formal conversation without calling names.

Why don't you start with every single treaty US wiped its ass with. I warn you, that'll be a lot of wiping.

Feel free to begin with American Indian treaties.

"Russian Indians" got nukes though, so when they are willing to use them as political leverage it's a bit harder to trick them with beads and mirrors into giving up their stuff.

And please, don't worry yourself with my mental capacity, at least what ever I got is all home grown and not factory processed and prepackaged with a corporate logo on it.

Cheers

You obviously do , because you cant seem the process the fact that I did not support the US in any of those incursions. I stated that several times already.

Yet you continually just spout what the US does to other nations. That doesn't refute my stances. I don't speak for America. I speak for me. You are just spouting anti USA rhetoric to support Russian aggression. You cant read or comprehend properly. I condemn the U.S. for its empire building and aggression and I condemned Russia for the same thing. You condemn the U.S. and commend Russia. You're simply a hypocrite.

On top of that we already discussed the difference between a puppet government and a land grab. Ukraine had a puppet government for Russia, Georgia did too. When those didn't work they both got invaded. US did the same in Iraq, Afghan and other countries. In turn they reap what they sow. The difference in Crimea was a puppet government was no longer good enough. They took the land first, then had a "vote". They just cut out the middleman being a puppet governemnt and flat out said this is ours now.

Throwing in the decimation of Native populaces of America like it wasn't the European settlers, with their imperialism and expansionism that caused their demise. Where did the Americans come from? How many different flags floated around on other countries. There was no cries from Crimea till Russia orchestrated it. They aren't white knights. Get it through your thick skull. I do not support other countries meddling in other countries affairs PERIOD. NO MATTER WHO IS DOING IT. Understand now?

MrStyx
They took the land first, then had a "vote".

Just that quote.

I'm not pro or anti, I'm for rationality.

To you, people fighting for their very lives is just a "vote" and land grabbing. Shame on you sir, that is just disgusting, and I dare you to say to ANY people that their voice for true self determination is just something in quotation marks.

If you live in US, feel free to drive out to an Indian reservation, walk out in the middle of the street and tell them that their voice and their "vote" is something equal to a snippet from a fox infotaiment show. Good luck with that.

As far as I'm concerned Eastern Ukraine has every right to join Russia if they want. They see the writing on the wall…..they don't want EU/US austerity, NATO, or bankers destroying their future. The West already stole their gold……the entire process has been a western takeover of a sovereign nation.

renden

MrStyx
They took the land first, then had a "vote".

Just that quote.

I'm not pro or anti, I'm for rationality.

To you, people fighting for their very lives is just a "vote" and land grabbing. Shame on you sir, that is just disgusting, and I dare you to say to ANY people that their voice for true self determination is just something in quotation marks.

If you live in US, feel free to drive out to an Indian reservation, walk out in the middle of the street and tell them that their voice and their "vote" is something equal to a snippet from a fox infotaiment show. Good luck with that.

Now that is funny. Now its shame on me. Spare me your false concerns. Fighting for their very lives? When and where. People are fighting for their lives in Syria. They are fighting for their lives in Libya. Russia didn't care. No, nobody is fighting for their lives in Crimea or Ukraine or Russia. No that is a lie. Where are the bullets, bombs, the blood, the civil war. Only major lives lost were the protestors who got shot up in Kiev square.

Votes mean nothing nowadays. I said it. No your lone voice is not heard. Money and power talk in Russia, Money and power talk in the USA. I do dare say your vote is miniscule and means nothing in the grand outcome. I'll say it to the Native Americans, they cant even enjoy their peyote in a country they were already in. We threw em a casino tax free. Sorry for killing you all now go gamble and drink. I'll say it to all Americans. I'll say it to Crimea and Russia too. The rights of the individual are dying in every country around the world. Your vote means nothing.

Crimea was given to Ukraine by Russia, 50 some odd years ago. If Ethnic Russians did not like that. They should have packed up and left home for Russia. Fascist, Nazi, Socialist, doesn't matter who is running Ukraine. Its theirs to run, not Russia's, not the U.S. Russia giveth and now, Russia taketh away.

khimbar
So, a government which took power by force in a coup, is trying to stop the other side taking power by referendum?

No.

the govt in Kiev did not take power in a coup - it was elected in 2012.

And the protests in the east are not for a referendum - they are requesting an invasion.

Xcathdra
reply to post by daaskapital

 

Actually Russia pushed the idea of a "Federation" style government for Ukraine and its "regions". They are essentially pushing for a association style government, which in turn would make it easier for Russia to continue absorbing sections of Ukraine. In their idea its a round about method of invasion without actually firing shots.

The reaction from Ukraine tells me the Russian idea is not going to happen. There have been reports of people being arrested coming into Ukraine with weapons / bombs / explosives etc. With the amount of propaganda flowing from both sides its difficult to figure out what info is valid and what info is not.

Russia essentially has Ukraine surrounded now with military assets so and the theory is they are going to strike just prior to the Presidential elections.

Are you serious? First to push an idea of a Federation was Germany, then Russia and then US. It's the only thing these three and nearly half of Ukraine agree on. Just unelected idiots in Kiev oppose this idea because their regions will lose nearly 50% of money they are getting from the South East.

And only foreign soldiers in Ukraine are now from US. There' re about 2000 of US citizens who work for US security firms. Their missions until now were mainly in Middle East for US government.

If US can falsify the evidence regarding WMDs and attack a country, bomb it 30 years back, kills 250K people, injure another 500K and displace more than a million..............then Russia can always accept an area which has been part of it historically for hundreds of years.............where local populations are more than willing to rejoin and want to go through democratic process of referendum.

The situation in Ukraine and Russia is little different from other parts of the world. It is not blatant invade and capture scenario. It is more like willing populations wanting to rejoin the country that they left mere 25 years ago.

Ukraine as a country ceased to exist on February 22, 2014 when its President was "thugged" out of the power and parliament disbanded. There is no government in Ukraine today, those who call themselves in power are a SHAM and represent a lawless junta out to threaten and coerce people.

Now various regions are free to join Russia or Belarus or Poland or Hungary as per their wishes and democratic votes.

victor7
...

Ukraine as a country ceased to exist on February 22, 2014 when its President was "thugged" out of the power and parliament disbanded. There is no government in Ukraine today, those who call themselves in power are a SHAM and represent a lawless junta out to threaten and coerce people.

Now various regions are free to join Russia or Belarus or Poland or Hungary as per their wishes and democratic votes.

Actually Ukraine as a country never existed ... it's an artificial country like Belgium. And today Ban Ki Moon said that Ukraine never legally became a country after the Soviet Union break-up so Ukraine is still considered a region of an ex-Soviet Union (or a country without borders). He added that there's no law that would make anexation of it's regions by other countries illegal.

People talk about Russia but forget about Hungary, Romania and Poland who at least on one occasion in the last few months said that they could take some of the regions since historically they belonged to them and most of the people of those regions would vote to rejoin

Xcathdra
reply to post by intrptr

 

It sure is, and what we see occurring in eastern portions of Ukraine is the exact same thing we saw in Crimea, before Russia invaded and seized that territory from Ukraine.

- Uprisings from anti-fascist citizens in Eastern / Southern Ukraine
- Clashes with police forces
- Taking over regional government
- Threats of invasion from the Kiev junta
- Declaring independence from Ukraine
- Forming self-defence forces
- Joining a geopolitical power with similar culture who will protect them from the government that they just broke away from.

Yes, it does sound similar. And it's taking place in half of that country. And it could not be happening if it was not the popular will of the people taking part in it.

Earlier I read a BBC article on the people's republic of Donetsk. Kerry reported told Lavrov to "disavow" Donestk's "separatist movement" of "rebels". This further proof that the USA talks about democracy ONLY when it is in favour with their own political agenda. Revolution is great in Kiev, but it is terror in Donetsk or Crimea.

baburak

victor7
...

Ukraine as a country ceased to exist on February 22, 2014 when its President was "thugged" out of the power and parliament disbanded. There is no government in Ukraine today, those who call themselves in power are a SHAM and represent a lawless junta out to threaten and coerce people.

Now various regions are free to join Russia or Belarus or Poland or Hungary as per their wishes and democratic votes.

Actually Ukraine as a country never existed ... it's an artificial country like Belgium. And today Ban Ki Moon said that Ukraine never legally became a country after the Soviet Union break-up so Ukraine is still considered a region of an ex-Soviet Union (or a country without borders). He added that there's no law that would make anexation of it's regions by other countries illegal.

People talk about Russia but forget about Hungary, Romania and Poland who at least on one occasion in the last few months said that they could take some of the regions since historically they belonged to them and most of the people of those regions would vote to rejoin

edit on 7-4-2014 by baburak because: (no reason given)

Break-up of USSR over one evening was a result of "THUGGERY" itself.

If not complete, then atleast partial reversals of that "ILLEGAL MOB DEMEANOR" has to take place..........in all justification to the Russians.

victor7

Break-up of USSR over one evening was a result of "THUGGERY" itself.

If not complete, then atleast partial reversals of that "ILLEGAL MOB DEMEANOR" has to take place..........in all justification to the Russians.

Agree .. but people will oppose it. Mostly they want federation and not rejoining with Russia. Hope they will have a referendum in every region so people can say which country they want be in (whether it's Ukraine, Russia, Hungary, Romania, Poland or Moldova) and whether they want federation or not.

Obama already said that referendum in Crimea would be legal if it was in every region of Ukraine and hopefully he will get what he asked for ..

unfortunately the kgb/fsb has always been better at such things than we are(staging protests, rigging elections, propaganda, etc), so i have no doubt that the ukraine will be absorbed within 2 years or a lot smaller at least, maybe a few new countries might be created even.