Russia trying to 'dismember' Ukraine through protests, Kiev says

VirusGuard
A quick search on Russia Today's site should convince you that Russia is far from Happy about these missiles, it's common knowledge so I will have to assume that RT is banned where you live.

No I live in the US and not Russia, so media sources that are negative towards the US government are not banned.

VirusGuard
Poland is a sovereign nation and can decide on their own what they will and will not host
That's a cop out and you know it and you would need to explain why the same rules cannot be applied to the Ukraine or why Russia got sanctioned because they allowed a vote in the Crimea.

No its not a cop out and trying to argue it is just undermines how weak your position is. Poland is a sovereign nation and can do pretty much whatever they want inside their own borders. Just as Russia has stated when they are confronted with the thousands of troops on the border of Ukraine. With renewed aggression by Russia towards its neighbors, those nations are going to take actions to defend themselves.

as has been stated time and again, every time Russia pulls an idiotic move like this he forces more and more nations into the west / EU / NATO grouping.

As for Crimea, it was a sovereign part of Ukraine. Russia invaded and then annexed that territory and did so by a government that was not elected by the Crimean people. Even the former President Yanukovych has stated Crimea still belongs to Crimea.
Ukraine crisis: Viktor Yanukovych decries Crimea 'tragedy'

Based on your logic why is it not possible for Chechnya to hold their own referendum and split from Russia? If you truly believe Putin is sincere when he talks about self determination of a people, then why did he invade Chechnya the 2nd go around?

Any referendum in Chechnya would have to be approved by Russia? Why? Because Russia claims Chechnya. As Ukraine claims Crimea because it was given to them in the 1950's.

VirusGuard
No they don't want a vote in the Ukraine because they know they won't be getting the results the USA wants and that is why they tried to stop the vote in the Crimea.

Actually 2 referendum on Crimea independence were held over the years, with both votes resulting in staying with Ukraine. The only way for Russia to get the results they wanted they had to invade and then hold sham elections under the barrel of a gun.

ironic that you are upset at the very same situation you accuse the west of.

VirusGuard
Things will get a lot more real if/when the gas pipes are blown and I bet CNN has already recorded it propaganda ready to play.

Why would Ukraine blow up the pipelines? If they are blown my money is on Russia being behind it. Even more so since they are going nuts over the discussion between Ukraine and her western neighbors about reverse gas flow into Ukraine.

VirusGuard
What you might not know is that the people on the streets of Europe are getting a little bit tired of the USA and NATO puppets.

All they ever show on TV is EU members from Brussels with big smiles on their faces when they talk about "American Partners" but the mood on the street is nothing like that at all and the only way you would find someone like that in a bar is if they were very drunk indeed and didn't raise there voice too loud else they would soon be shut up by other drinkers in the bar.

I've seen Russian troops up close first hand and they were very respectful but you wouldn't find me messing with them I can tell you.

Got a source / links to those articles that support your claims above?

renden

MrStyx

I applaud you Xcathdra it gets tiring trying to swim against the current. I myself get tired of trying to talk sense into flaky individuals who only see I hate the West rather than looking at something objectively.

Aaaaaahahahahaha! Same old lameass "East against the West" motif.

Are you kidding? Why don't you fellas bring out all the old cliches. Get them cowboy boots and white cowboy hats verses black "shapka ushanka" and vodka.

Laaaame! At least try and create something imaginative, because all that stereotypical nonsense is so last century it stinks like rotten fish.

You are the lame ass guys that are actually making Russia look cool to current generation.

Then you have guys like this, that provide no content whatsoever to a thread, by all means reden tell us your stance. We're the lames yet you said nothing and have a star for you effort good job. Quite lame indeed. Let me clarify BRIC vs NATO because it is wrong to say East vs West because the map is drawn a bit different. Creative enough for you?

Care to join the debate? or continue to contribute nothing sitting on high mocking the lowly lames below you.

intrptr
Ummm, the referendum in Crimea happened as a result of what happened in Kiev. It was a counter move on Russia's part.

So you just admitted Russian is behind Crimeas status. Even though Russia continually lies by stating they have nothing to do with it. If they cant get you convinced, then why would you think the remainder of the world would also not see their lies?

Russia knows it would not get Crimea by referendum under Ukraine's Constitution. This was their alternative - invading Crimea by cowards with no names / insignias who violated Crimea's constitution by removing the lawfully elected Crimean government and replacing them with people they hand picked.

intrptr
Only really necessary to remind the world whom is in charge of that "region". Russians have been there in Sevastopol for hundreds of years. See Russia's Black Sea fleet.

Its that mindset of Russia's that has forced nations around them to join the EU / NATO. Russia's actions are undermining the very goal they are trying to achieve.

intrptr
The sanctions (blockade) tactics currently employed by the US towards Russia should make people aware of just how meddlesome the US is in this regard.

Sanctions and a blockade are not the same thing. A blockade is an act of war, which is what Russia did when they blocked Crimean ports while it was a part of Ukraine. Secondly Russia has sanctions of their own on other countries. Why is that ok for them to do but not ok when it is done to them? Do those nations, who are sovereign, not have a right to decide who they will trade with?

intrptr
We want to repress Russia. its been NATO's mission since it was formed after WWII . If we see it in that light it becomes obvious the US is playing deep in Russia's "interests", not the other way around.

LOL.. You are mistaking NATO with the Warsaw pact.

How about we look at Russia and now Crimea and discuss what Russia has suppressed? I say this because I cannot find one thing that NATO has suppressed.

By all means, support your claims with sources for this point please.

MrStyx
reply to post by mark1167

 

Cry Russia a river. Don't try to act like Russia is meek. They are just as meddlesome as the U.S and the West or did you forget their stint in Afghanistan or all the other back door projects, nations they supplied militarily and financially, or the BRICS nations whose economy will surpass the Wests quite soon.

If Russia didn't run out of money at the time they would still be all over the place like they used to be. They are trying to get back to that. This is the start. If you follow the comments and the stars they are mostly pro russian so tell me what huge agent presence are you seeing , unless you mean Russian propaganda agents.

Nice way to twist what I said. Pure deflection. I never said anything about being pro Russia...or tried to deny Russia's past meddling, I'm stating the obvious that is occurring now..in the present.
And regarding propaganda, I said this "thread" not these posts.... and most of the post's are not pro Russia either..
they are pro common sense and pure observation.

mark1167
I'm missing something here.....

No doubt...

renden
Don't worry about it, that dude is getting payed by the word count, resident ATS propagandist. Give it up to Brother Nathaniel, he's the man when it comes to fingering sell out degenerate jews that keep repeating the same old lies for a few shekels.

Once more you open your mouth and once again prove my point. If a person does not agree with your position, you simply label them as a propagandist.. Or accuse them of working for a government to push their agenda.

If you had facts to counter what I post you would have posted it yourself. Instead, and just like in other threads, you attack the poster because you cannot refute the facts.

Since you made the claim feel free to post who I work for and how much I make by posting. As for your ignorant comment about Jews, well that just speaks volumes about your character.

renden

MrStyx

I applaud you Xcathdra it gets tiring trying to swim against the current. I myself get tired of trying to talk sense into flaky individuals who only see I hate the West rather than looking at something objectively.

Aaaaaahahahahaha! Same old lameass "East against the West" motif.

Are you kidding? Why don't you fellas bring out all the old cliches. Get them cowboy boots and white cowboy hats verses black "shapka ushanka" and vodka.

Laaaame! At least try and create something imaginative, because all that stereotypical nonsense is so last century it stinks like rotten fish.

You are the lame ass guys that are actually making Russia look cool to current generation.

Example 2 of attacking the poster because you cant refute the facts.

How can you speak of international sovereignty, yet its cool for Russia to stomp on its neighbor because NATO is encroaching. Its irrelevant where NATO is. Did NATO invade Ukraine?

How typically lame. Same old "Do as we say not as we do".

Yeah, NATO has been pushing Ukraine to join just like the rest of the ex-soviet states that even against at written that there will be no NATO expansion.

NATO simply offered a better deal. Irrelevant if CIA or whatever boogie man you hold responsible for a coup in Kiev. Coups just don't happen, nor can they be manufactured so easily. There must be unrest beforehand, there must be poor conditions before hand. Its an internal matter, part of Ukraine's growing pains let them sort it out. Not Russia. Not the West.

For too long and too many wars those nations like Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, have been invaded or occupied. Let them breathe that goes for the East and the West.

Brilliant.

Better "deal". By logic, the worse deal would be the usual bombings.

What is happening now in East Ukraine is unrest, when people rise up against the NWO neocon Nazis, but when over 5 billion dollars is pumped into a country to destabilize it to the brink of bloody civil war, it's called "soft power" of democracy.

Just a reminder, those countries of Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, were LIBERATED from NAZIS, you fool. The bastards that are claiming that they were occupied by Soviet Russia are the damn Nazi Fascists that were happily slaughtering people.

If bigger nations feel free to continue stomping on and taking from the little guy conditions will never improve and history will continue to rinse and repeat.

Oh yeah, let's fold all those American bases throughout the world and then that statement would fit right in.

But this is good, keep polarizing people with typical propaganda, it's working well.

mark1167
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

That's all you've got?
I'm not sure how to take that. Oh yeah your an arrogant American..sorry I forgot.
Your always right.

Its all that was needed in response to your post. By all means though continue with the attack on the poster because you cannot refute the facts.

renden
How typically lame. Same old "Do as we say not as we do".

Yeah, NATO has been pushing Ukraine to join just like the rest of the ex-soviet states that even against at written that there will be no NATO expansion.

Ukraine met the requirements to join NATO in 2010. President Yanukovych opted not to join. NATO did not invade them or refusing.

As for NATO expansion if Russia was such a friendly nation to them then why did those former SSR's join NATO? Could it be because at the end of WWII the Soviet Union / Russia lied to them and occupied their countries for more than 50 years?

renden
Brilliant.

Better "deal". By logic, the worse deal would be the usual bombings.

Oh I don't know about that.. There could always be a Russian invasion...

renden
What is happening now in East Ukraine is unrest, when people rise up against the NWO neocon Nazis, but when over 5 billion dollars is pumped into a country to destabilize it to the brink of bloody civil war, it's called "soft power" of democracy.

What is happening in East Ukraine is subversion by Russian forces to foment dissent so they can justify a second invasion of Ukraine.

Russia was told several times at the UN to provide evidence of their claims in Ukraine. Russia refused that request, several times. Why? Because they are behind it and any attempt to support it would require specifics, which sould be investigated, which would lead back to Russia.

renden
Just a reminder, those countries of Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, were LIBERATED from NAZIS, you fool. The bastards that are claiming that they were occupied by Soviet Russia are the damn Nazi Fascists that were happily slaughtering people.

and then OCCUPIED by RUSSIA.

Those making that claim on occupation are not NAZI's, they are intelligent and informed people who do research instead of just believing what Russia tells us to.

renden
Oh yeah, let's fold all those American bases throughout the world and then that statement would fit right in.

Or all of those Soviet Bases being reactivated / Soviet bases in foreign countries like Cuba, Venezuela, etc. American bases are located inside sovereign nations. Using the standard for the Russian side, they are sovereign nations and can decide themselves who they will work with or host military units from. Just as Russia stated what military maneuvers occur in Russia are no one else's business but theirs.

renden
But this is good, keep polarizing people with typical propaganda, it's working well.

Keep attacking the poster because you cant refute the facts....

Cause of the crisis, same as a solution to it, is very simple, every one knows about it.

Russian language should be made a second official language in Ukraine, just like two official languages in Canada or just like in Belgium, where there are three official languages. That's really democratic.

Until then Russian speaking (huge chunk) of Ukrainian population is savagely oppressed, deprived of expressing self identity and history.

The rest of events are only the RESULT of that discriminating policy. Whos interests that policy serves, most on this board also knows.

Cheers.

Oh looky, dismemberment by democracy in action;

Donetsk People’s Council Set to Hold Referendum to Join Russia May 11

DONETSK, 7 April (RIA Novosti) - Donetsk region People’s Council established by local pro-federalization demonstrators on Monday declared its plans to create the republic of Donetsk and join Russia if people so vote during the referendum which is due to take place no later than May 11, RIA Novosti correspondent reported Monday.

"People's Republic of Donetsk is to be created within the administrative borders of Donetsk region. This decision shall enter into force immediately after the referendum," one of the leaders of Donetsk People's council said at a meeting in the building of regional administration Monday.

en.ria.ru...

How like, dare those people vote for their own determination and such when they are pro-Russia, democracy only works for all pro-American and EU matters.

Democracy and voting is a tool too fine for all them non-Americans to use unsupervised. The only type of democratic referendum can be held this way;



So right up until Ukraine is a burning wreck razed to the ground and full of US mercenary forces, any kind of non-US managed referendum and elections will not be like really democratic, cuz any referendum against US/EU/NATO has to be all twisted and held under a gun.

How dare anybody not love US/EU/NATO? If they dare - bomb them!

Let me repeat it; freedom democracy does not, and can not exist if it's not managed by USA International Incorporated.

Don't you people know that freedom and democracy themselves have been copyrighted long time ago? Even mentioning it with out American permission is illegal and full might of American military power will be brought upon anybody who dares to do so with out paying royalties.

All hail the only true Power Of Democracy, Liberty and Freedom, the greatest, the bestest, the all mighty, NWO America Incorporated! (and if you don't, you will be bombed to sh!t, and it's not like a Fascist totalitarianism at all, just liberty at work)

stomp stomp stomp stomp stomp

Xcathdra
Got a source / links to those articles that support your claims above?

I can do much better than that and here is one where Americans themselves are saying the same thing

europo.info...

It's not a Claim as you word it and I happen to walk the streets of Europe and even with Google (American puppet) doing all they can to maintain public relations for Uncle Sam it's not too hard to find the odd post that was allowed

www.theatlantic.com...

Shock Poll: 51% of Voters Want US Troops Out of Europe
www.the-american-interest.com...

Now if 51% of Americans want the USA out of Europe then can you guess how many of the people on the streets of Europe want the yanks to go home ?

rickrozoff.wordpress.com...

1. Terrorism cannot be countered by military might or bombs.
2.The USA’s threats and actions are state terrorism.
3. The cold war is over; Russia is not an enemy.
4. China is a rival using agreements and investment rather than threats, invasions, occupation; it is NOT an enemy.
5. Nukes in Poland or anywhere else in Europe are an unnecessary and dangerous threat.
6 GO HOME YANKS!!!!!!!

It's getting very hard to find much on Google that goes against the party lines so I hope that you appreciate the effort I made but we even have a tv show based on the very theme.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Please stop walking into closed door, it hurts

You said

As for NATO expansion if Russia was such a friendly nation to them then why did those former SSR's join NATO? Could it be because at the end of WWII the Soviet Union / Russia lied to them and occupied their countries for more than 50 years?

We in Europe have been occupied by the USA for 70 years and I hate to break it to you buddy but we don't want you here anymore than you would like us on your land and we certainly don't want the Mafia protection that's being offered these day nor the trouble from across the border with Russia.

Xcathdra
Keep attacking the poster because you cant refute the facts....

LOLOLOL! I laugh at you!

facts!

LOLOLOL

Please be safe and don't poke out your remaining eye with that fork full of facts!

reply to post by mark1167


I cant twist what you say. You can say it and I can show the hypocrisy it really is. You call it observation. I don't. Don't walk into a country with your guns, raise your flags everywhere then claim its a democratic vote. Let the people of that sovereign nation having their upheaval come to that conclusion themselves. Then they can vote, then if that vote goes whatever way then you can help the people reinforce what they voted for.

Russia cant even defend her actions because she already made her stance clear on Lybia and Syria, yet took a different route here. Hypocrites

MrStyx
Don't walk into a country with your guns, raise your flags everywhere then claim its a democratic vote.

Yeah, can't America just stop doing that already?! Enough is enough dammit, the world had it with this nonsense.

Amen brother, and shame on all those double talking silver tonged hypocrites.

reply to post by renden


Your just not civil enough to hold a conversation. How many times must you cast out name calling due to your lack of ability. I wont call you lame. I can only continually point out the holes in your stances. Don't try to make me a NATO/US defender because I'm well aware of her sins too. I don't condone them and I don't defend those who do.

I don't condone muscle tactics anywhere in the world, no matter who is doing it. That is true objectivity. I don't involve myself with he did it too arguments because they hold no weight. You haven't a leg to stand on neither does Russia. Its a land grab plain and simple. Empire building at its finest. The reason is irrelevant. The methods are my only concern.

What did you learn from it? I learned that treaties, memorandums, agreements, etc are just pieces of paper that were signed yesteryear and mean nothing now. I learned that hypocrisy is alive and well, and I learned reden doesn't have the mental capacity to have a formal conversation without calling names.

mark1167
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

That's all you've got?
I'm not sure how to take that. Oh yeah your an arrogant American..sorry I forgot.
Your always right.

Trust me, he does not represent an American. I know Americans, I've been married to one for 15 years

Fellas like that is what we call "sheeple". That is if they are just programmed to repeat propaganda, if not, then they are called much worse, because what they do is intentional.